@MikeB

Quote:

The PS3 media coverage so far, has IMO been a lot like house-wifes telling each other stories/rumours, with the story being exaggerated more and more from house-wife to house-wife. But maybe this should have been expected, I have seen more and more extremism and extreme bias regarding normal news coverages in western media as well, sadly this also seems to reflect on people's overall behaviour IMO.

You're quite anxious to combat what you see as a biased and extreme media. Do have some good examples that you can link to?

Chris

@clebin

Quote:

That's not really an IMO - either you have proof of it or not. I don't like the suggestion that games journalists are being influenced or even bought by publishers, just because you disagree with their conclusions.

OK, it's a IMO based on information like:

MS Takes 360 On The Road To Take On PS3
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/ms-takes-360-on-the-road-to-take-on-ps3-221044.php

"Microsoft is sending some corporate Xbox 360 evangelists on the road, ready to do a side-by-side comparison throwdown with Sony's PS3. The company sent two 360 shills to CNET to show just how well a $400 Xbox 360 and a $200 HD-DVD player stacks up to Sony's $600 PlayStation 3.

The problem? The CNET editors didn't really see the difference either way.

I'm not sure if that benefits Sony or Microsoft, but Aaron Greenberg, group product manager for Xbox 360, and Scott "1080p is basically impossible" Henson, director of platform strategy, brought out the big guns and left the staff unswayed. In fact, admitted non-videophile Daniel Terdiman said of the touted 360 superiority "any differences are those that I think would be noticed only by someone with too much time on their hands." Whether it was Gears versus Resitance, Blu-ray versus HD-DVD, they just didn't seem to care."

Microsoft shows off PS3
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1548407/20061218/index.jhtml

"A few weeks ago a public-relations representative who promotes the Xbox 360 made an unusual pitch. Xbox executives would soon be coming to town and available for meetings. These execs would have with them an Xbox 360 and a little something extra: a PlayStation 3.

They downplayed a seeming Sony advantage on disc capacity: Sony games can come on Blu-ray discs that contain about seven times the data of the DVDs 360 games are made on. Not an issue, Henson said: " 'Gears' is using half a DVD.""

MikeB: Why? Gear of War is a pretty short game. Why would it be bad if a game would become 4 to 8 times the size in actual game content? Speculation: Is Gears of War short to fit on a Single layer DVD to speed up loading times? That would sound like a plausible reason to state "Half a DVD ought to be enough for everyone!"

"Then they moved on to Call of Duty 3 which is a cross platform release. The Playstation 3 ran Call of Duty in 720p while the Xbox 360 and ANA upscaled it to 1080p. Even though Microsoft tried to point out the smallest differences which should make the game better on their system, Ben admitted he didn’t see much of a difference. An interesting site note is that COD3, at least for the Xbox360, isn’t rendered at 720p, it’s rendered at 620p."

etc, etc.

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jan-2007 at 05:12 PM.

@MikeB

'The 360 guys said this was a revelation even to them. But with a laugh they went with it: "We have better snow," Henson said, "and you can take that to the bank!"'

Ugh - I hate salesmen. I can just picture their slimy faces and that slightly deeper and louder than necessary laugh...

But anyway, I think you're doing journalists a mis-service if you think they'll be influenced by a short presentation. It's actually risky for MS because it highlighted the noisy fan issue without convincing people about video quality.

I've seen Microsoft schmooze other salespeople, but when they showed up at a recent Flash conference to promote their copy-cat Expression software, they were met with derision. And I don't think it would work with journalists either.

It might be - just like all of us at times - that you are simply in the minority by rating that game so highly.

Chris

@clebin

Quote:

You're quite anxious to combat what you see as a biased and extreme media. Do have some good examples that you can link to?

There are enough examples of that, but I don't want to go too much off topic. But for instance in many media, every Muslim fighting for freedom is being painted off as being an extremist by various media. The same media nearly never speaks of extremist Christians or extremist westerners. Of course this goes both ways, there are people who view every westerner as being a greedy warmongerer and only capable of holding double standards.

Personally I am more attracted a certain mix of eastern philosophies to find the meaning of life, but respect other perspectives people's opinios. But let's not get into that. I have had friendly and in depth encounters with Christian, Jews, Muslims and even Amiga and MorphOS users.

Back on topic:

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'The 360 guys said this was a revelation even to them. But with a laugh they went with it: "We have better snow,"

It seems Madden just was a quick port, I haven't played it. But I think the PS3 has better snow in Resistance.

Edit Here's a small video, judge for yourself:
http://www.gameklip.com/v/1928/

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jan-2007 at 05:25 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jan-2007 at 05:23 PM.

@jiyong

Quote:

What's the issue with the screen? The fact that 1080p does make a visible difference?

You never mentioned your screen size. I'd recommend reading up on screens and resolutions along with seating distances. If you are sitting 3' from the screen I believe it's a 26" set where 1080p and 720p will not have any noticeable difference for you. Now if you are sitting 3' from a 60" screen you'll of course see some differences. This would be an abnormal arrangement for the average home in the US as the seating distances are longer then that as the screens are smaller.

@MikeB

I did mean examples specifically with regard to the PS3, mind!

Chris

@MikeB

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Yes, games do not scale on the PS3, the games run best at the resolution(s) they were designed for

That's because the Sony failed to make a nice little hardware scaler as part of the PS product.

As for GoW vs Resistence -- who likes these games chooses their favorites. You prefer Resistence. Most reviewers and general users have given GoW a higher score. Some people may hate the blood and guts killing aspects and rate them as 3s but give Viva Pinata a 9.

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Normally 1080p games will look better than upscaled lower res games not designed with such a resolution in mind. 720P games will look just fine. Sadly seemingly many people who claimed they can't see any differences between genuine native 1080p, 720p or even 1080i output, now all of the sudden think a scaler is some kind of magic component.

Many TVs only have 1 output resolution. Using the 360 to scale instead of the TV itself is frequently superior. The scaler is important for example without one things such as the 1080p Blu-Ray which fail to output on 720p, or 770p as many LCDs do, and end up outputting 480p in turn hurting the quality of Blu-Ray.

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It is rumoured Microsoft will announce it has "sold" around 10.4 million units at the upcoming CES. However it is also believed around 2 million units of this figure weren't actually sold in 2006 to end-user

I believe Microsoft counts sold as units to the store itself whereas Sony counts sold as shipped to their warehouse. There is indeed a difference on how those 2 count sold and neither count actual units in consumer hands.

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Personally I don't think XBox 360 games will ever look this good. Crytek please prove me wrong

You must have missed the news that Crytek has reversed it's position and it will be coming to the 360.

@MikeB

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IMO Microsoft tries to FUD the PS3 by visiting countless of Journalist offices with Gears of War and Resistance, trying to claim XBox 360 superiority.

So them going into places with a Sony Bravia 1080p set (of all sets possible) and letting journalists see HD-DVD vs BluRay and PS3 games vs 360 games side by side is somehow FUD rather than a side by side comparison? If they wanted to do FUD they'd have brought a 720p TV instead of one that actually does favours to the PS3. 720p only? Well, enjoy the 480p BluRay movies.

See for instance the Ars Technica article and explain to me how this is FUD.

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leave those journalists alone with Gears and Resistance for a couple of weeks and they may come to the conclusing Resistance is actually the better game here

Then again they may not. After all I've seen exactly 0 game of the year awards go to Resistance: FoM while Gears of War has so far had three (afair) that I have heard of - from the major sites.

Quote:

Sadly seemingly many people who claimed they can't see any differences between genuine native 1080p, 720p or even 1080i output, now all of the sudden think a scaler is some kind of magic component.

Of course it isn't magic. It's a scaler. And it does its job well apparently.

Quote:

The PS3 media coverage so far, has IMO been a lot like house-wifes telling each other stories/rumours, with the story being exaggerated more and more from house-wife to house-wife.

Much like the tales of the unquestionable superior firepower of the PS3 from fanboys, eh? Most professional comparisons have focused on reality instead of theory. Looking at how games run next to each other, how online components work, how media playback works and looks side by side. I just find it amusing that apologists can't seem to accept that some things aren't exactly top notch on the PS3 while it does some other things very well. If it's not the best at any given thing it's all FUD and will be a bajillion times better in the future. Too bad we're not living in the future so we know yet.

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PS3 not being backwards compatible and such.

I think the biggest issue with the backwards compatibility is lack of scaling. If it weren't because I have games from several regions (and to the best of my knowledge only PS3 games are relatively region free while older ones will still be region locked on PS3) I would be slightly interested in playing them again in hi-def with anti-aliasing etc. - unfortunately PSX games (and to a lesser degree PS2 games) will look absolutely pants on a hi-def monitor/tv.

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his gap seems to be widening though.

Heh, yeah. Side by side comparisons are FUD. Not this though. Not at all

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I think Microsoft should change "sold" into "shipped" to avoid further misunderstandings.

Why aren't you complaining when Sony are doing the exact same thing? Especially considering Microsoft is using shipped to retail while Sony use shipped from factory?

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I don't expect a PS3 port, as it's meant to show off Microsoft's DirectX 10, if I have to upgrade my PC I probably won't be playing this game though. Personally I don't think XBox 360 games will ever look this good.

The graphical muscle in the 360 is on par with the latest DX10 cards. The limitation compared to a PC is 1. less system memory and 2. slower harddrive (that may not be used at all). If you don't use wide open areas you should be able to pull off the exact same thing on a 360 as on a PC since you don't need to stream as much data. Of course the PC isn't limited to 720p/1080p either. Speaking of which: apparently Blue Dragon has 1080p support.

Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Jan-2007 at 05:55 PM.

@BrianK

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As for GoW vs Resistence -- who likes these games chooses their favorites.

People also buy based on hype and media coverage. I expect more focuss on Resistance in reviews for the European launch as GoW isn't new anymore.

More people will be playing online and it so this will be more of interest to reviewers to check out. Gears of War was released before the PS3 was even available.

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Sony counts sold as shipped

Sony only releases "shipped" data, as it's difficult to accurately track "sold". I believe http://vgcharts.org/ is the best place to track this sort of information.

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You must have missed the news that Crytek has reversed it's position and it will be coming to the 360

I think the PC version will look better.

@MikeB

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People also buy based on hype and media coverage. I expect more focuss on Resistance in reviews for the European launch as GoW isn't new anymore.

Resistance: FoM was new as well. What's your point? Plus it doesn't make Resistance look better now that Gears of War is older ...

Quote:

More people will be playing online and it so this will be more of interest to reviewers to check out. Gears of War was released before the PS3 was even available.

And when the PS3 was released they were compared and the concensus was that Gears of War was the better game.

Quote:

I believe http://vgcharts.org/ is the best place to track this sort of information.

They don't have very reliable numbers really. I've been keeping track of them as press releases have come out and their numbers tend to be out of date for long periods of time (except Japanese numbers which seem to be pretty spot on). While you can argue that nexgenwars isn't precise it's at least a more precise estimate based on information as it comes. When more precise numbers come out their numbers are adjusted accordingly (the Wii number went up and down a bit due to wrong numbers at first).

As for Crysis on 360: They've flip-flopped on that so many times I think we should take it with a grain of salt and a huge tequila. If it comes it comes - but it will most likely be a somewhat different game unless they've figured something interesting out in the meanwhile that voids their previous statements.

Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Jan-2007 at 06:06 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Jan-2007 at 06:02 PM.

@Trezzer

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Resistance: FoM was new as well. What's your point?

The Gears of War hype will have slowed down. Graphically impressive PS3 games will be available, people will put less focuss on comparing the graphics and look more at the actual game. There will be less focuss on Nintendo Wii. The PS3 will be in the spotlight.

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And when the PS3 was released they were compared and the concensus was that Gears of War was the better game.

Opinions disagree on that, PS3 rating may be lower also due to Epic claiming Gears of War is as good as it gets for the XBox 360 and Resistance being based on a heavily improved PS2-engine.

Reviewers expect amazing things from the PS3, also due to E3 trailers of titles still under development. They know the developers only had access to mature dev kits for a short while, so they have enormous expectation from later titles vs launch titles.

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I've been keeping track of them as press releases have come out and their numbers tend to be out of date for long periods of time

They usually have the non-public figures before anyone else making figures public on the web. They are platform independent and fully dedicated in tracking various games related sales data.

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jan-2007 at 06:17 PM.

@MikeB

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Opinions disagree on that, PS3 rating may be lower also due to Epic claiming Gears of War is as good as it gets for the XBox 360

Ha ha.

I'm lost for words. I can't wait to see Trezzer hear you repeat that statement again.

First, a MS influence, and now you're saying the reviewers might have preferred Resistance to Gears of War, but marked it lower because the PS3 is awesomely powerful compared to the 360. You've lost it.

Chris

@clebin

In the past some titles were both released for the c64 and Amiga, the Amiga version was usually better overall, but the c64 received higher scores in those same magazines. This was due to being impressed by what the developers managed to push out of the c64.

I think one reason why Gears received perfect scores in XBox magazines may have been due to Epic's claims and Microsoft's hype. This would never happen for Resistance in Playstation magazines.

@MikeB

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I expect more focuss on Resistance in reviews for the European launch as GoW isn't new anymore.

I don't. Each game shipped about the same time. As time progresses you'll see new games for each console. The focus is typically on the new games. As for Resistance I've played it before it was called CallofDuty. IMO it deserves to be rated less then GoW.

The PC version of Crytek has potential to look better then either a 360 or a PS3 version. Monitors look better then TV sets. Resolutions and speed are higher on a monitor and surely they'll be pushing the PCs as much as possible.

I think one thing you do is is more GoW reviews. Why? Well 8M+ consoles in conumer hands and 2M+ copies of the game sold makes it much easier to review then the small # of PS3 owners and even smaller # who owns Resistance.

Quote:

Quote: And when the PS3 was released they were compared and the concensus was that Gears of War was the better game. Opinions disagree on that.

Individual opinions do disagree. The statement was - consensus- and the consensus is GoW is the better game. I can't think of a single time Resistance earned GameOfTheYear from any gaming site. This isn't the case of GoW.

Quote:

Opinions disagree on that, PS3 rating may be lower also due to Epic claiming Gears of War is as good as it gets for the XBox 360 and Resistance being based on a heavily improved PS2-engine.

It's been explained to you twice by myself and a few times by Trezzer while your statement is incorrect. Read the rest of the Epic statements see why they said they can do better the next time. GoW is not the ultimate in 360 games. Stop the FUD.

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know the developers only had access to mature dev kits for a short while, so they have enormous expectation from later titles vs launch titles.

You know this goes to show how poorly Sony did for their Developers. They announced a console 5 years ago and only a few months before the launch was a full Dev Kit available. I can understand Microsoft's issue a bit more as it took them 9 months from processor build to ship.

As for CNET not being able to tell the differnce between the 360 and PS3 is a good thing IMO. We have a $400 console vs a $600 console w/ the same sort of gaming goodness. Sounds like a win in Microsoft's court to me. And it has been as the rate of sales for the 360 is larger then the rate for the Xbox. Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD again not much difference. Is again good for HD-DVD it shows that Sony is further pimping out the groundless FUD to prompte the PS3 as their trojan Blu-Ray player.

@MikeB

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as good as it gets for the XBox 360

After all this I can only call you one thing: liar and FUD-artist.

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The Gears of War hype will have slowed down

The hype stopped when the game was reviewed all over the place. After that it's hype no longer - it's delivering on the promise.

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Graphically impressive PS3 games will be available

Oh, so now it can impress with graphics...

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people will put less focuss on comparing the graphics and look more at the actual game

...and people won't care about the graphics.

Isn't that swell?

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Opinions disagree on that

Fanboys, yes. Mainstream magazines as well as hardcore gaming sites have given GoW higher scores across the board. Maybe one or two sites ranked Resistance higher, but if that's the case I haven't seen it.

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also due to E3 trailers of titles still under development.

... for all platforms. Yes. What's your point?

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They know the developers only had access to mature dev kits for a short while

Final dev kits yeah. Development kits have been out for a long, long time though. Remember the first showing of Unreal Tournament 2007 and Fight Night Round 3? (back when it was still the banana controller)

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They usually have the non-public figures before anyone else making figures public on the web. They are platform independent and fully dedicated in tracking various games related sales data.

Just like nexgenwars. One site just uses retrospective numbers which means it can be out of sync, and the other uses expected numbers based on reports. It will be a bit up and down as to which one is more precise at any given moment. So far nexgenwars seems to have been more in sync with actual numbers at any given time though.

@MikeB

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I think one reason why Gears received perfect scores in XBox magazines may have been due to Epic's claims and Microsoft's hype. This would never happen for Resistance in Playstation magazines.

Ahh this brings back memories.. Sony pre-PS2 showed the duck and how all the games were going to rock like this. Many were disappointed when the first couple of years games were slighly improved over the Dreamcast. The only thing the PS2 had of that hyped quality were FMV. YAWN! Now the PS2 is a good machine and lately games are finally getting up to that level. But, compared to the Xbox, which is about 1/2 the power according to Sony, has comparable games.

Yeah there's no hype around Sony. Sony's this unknown underdog. The only hype is around Microsoft -- good one!

@MikeB

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This would never happen for Resistance in Playstation magazines.

Oh really?

So the entire army of reviewers all over the world have somehow been blinded by Microsoft's words?

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In the past some titles were both released for the c64 and Amiga, the Amiga version was usually better overall, but the c64 received higher scores in those same magazines.

However the C64 wasn't the stronger machine all-round as is the case here with the 360. Here it's apples with apples - not oranges.

Quote:

This was due to being impressed by what the developers managed to push out of the c64.

And now people are unimpressed with what developers are getting out of the PS3. The big question is whether it will improve substantially or whether the 360 will always be one step ahead. The better development tools, more powerful GPU and CPUs that are more geared towards gaming could well mean that this will be the reality of things. PS3 fans will keep crying "just you wait! Next year we'll.." while the 360 continues to be that one year ahead.

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I think one reason why Gears received perfect scores in XBox magazines

It's not in Xbox magazines though (although they of course also ranked it just as high). It's cross platform sites. Remember gamerankings includes both magazines and sites - both dedicated and cross-platform. The cross-platform ones are the reviews I pay most attention to.

@BrianK

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GoW is not the ultimate in 360 games.

Indeed. What will be interesting is whether any game on PS3 will match the visuals of Gears of War at all.

@BrianK

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Many were disappointed when the first couple of years games were slighly improved over the Dreamcast.

Actually very few were. I remember Le Mans 24 had slightly improved lighting effects - mostly due to player feedback and extra development time. Other games were generally worse visually on other platforms (such as Skies of Arcadia, Grandia 2, Dead or Alive 2 for instance).

I still doubt that the PS2 would be able to pull Shenmue off with the same visual quality today. As great looking as Yakuza and Rise to Honor are the textures are washed out compared to the incredible amount of detail that Shenmue was pushing back in 2000.

@BrianK

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You know this goes to show how poorly Sony did for their Developers. They announced a console 5 years ago and only a few months before the launch was a full Dev Kit available.

They tried to leapfrog the competition from a technical standpoint (Cell, Blu-Ray, Wi-Fi), delaying the PS3 further to wait for European launch games Heavenly Sword, Lair and Motorstorm may not have been a good idea for American software companies wanting to sell their games in the American market for christmas 2006. Initially Amiga games didn't look too hot compared to Atari ST games.