@jtsiren

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namely HDMI

Actually it seems that a new revision of the 360 will have HDMI as standard as well as a new scaling chip and the new, cooler cpu. There are also talks of a 120 GB drive as the next step. HD-DVD, it is assured, will remain an optional extra. Whether the form factor will change (smaller?) is unknown.

It is also unknown whether it will be launched as a top of the line model, replace the premium or something else.

It's possible that the old 360s will get HDMI through an adapter cable, but it will need a little conversion gadget inbetween as the output from the scaler chip apparently isn't digital. I'm not sure if it actually benefits the signal quality as the VGA output is already great, but I'm sure it's great for those whose televisions don't have VGA in or accept 1080p over component.

Another thing is that apparently the 360 will get IPTV and this will be announced at CES. Well, that's the rumour anyway. There are videos showing the 360 with HDMI connector even if it isn't a retail unit.

A 120 gig drive would certainly be plenty for the medium term. Personally I don't see any reason to upgrade, though. Maybe once the video store launches over here. Then again I have 8Mb broadband.

@jiyong

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Somehow I have the feeling you are "preaching" to the world that they don't need 1080p.

For the average viewing of the average househould they don't need 1080p. The average screen size and average seating distance is such that few to none will notice any difference between 720p and 1080p.

The problem here is Sony is selling 1080p and how it's simply mandatory for a HighDef system. It's not. Trezzer did a good job explaining what the implications are in relation to graphics for 1080p. There's been some good conversation here on why the 360 is setup better for 1080p games. There's been good discussions here on why Blu-Ray on PS3 is a problem when it relates to 720p sets and needs.

Sony's preaching the world needs 1080p. But, Sony themselves are having issues with games not scaling from 720p to 1080p and Blu-Ray skipping 720p and downscaling to 480p. Do you need 1080p or not? It depends upon your circumstances and uses. Be an educated buyer understand what your uses are, how the PS3 and Xbox360 handle those uses and if 1080p is truly a necessity.

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Perhaps because the 360 doesn't have any 1080p titles?

Wrong assumption on my reasoning. I hope I have cleared up the reasoning. As for 1080p games the 360 does have 1 game and the PS3 has 2, that I can think of, each console will likely have more in the coming year.

@Trezzer

There has been leaked pictures of HDMI and of the 120GB drive. Microsoft has stated the 65nm processor is coming in 2007. Delayed a bit from March but none-the-less still on the way.

IPTV? I missed those rumors. I'd like to know what happened to the Direct TV combo Xbox360. CES undoubtably will tell us what's going on with the Xbox360.

@jtsiren

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Maybe I bought into the marketing hype

Maybe but by the sounds of it you also bought into the FUD...

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we know have learned that all/most PS3 lauch-titles are in fact 720p too

Last I read 7 are 1080p

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can't even be scaled to 1080p

If you have a 1080p TV it'll scale it for you. The fuss about BluRay not outputting 720p is much the same, all modern HD sets are *required* to handle the 1080i the PS3 can output. Some older sets can't do this. There was a related problem with 1080i due to preferences but it was fixed within a week.

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I do put faith in Cell to give the PS3 longetivity as it is utilized more and more in the future, but I never expected it to have to compensate for shortcomings in the graphics department.

According to developers this is *not* the case.

The 360's advantage is in it's EDRAM, as it reduces Gfx memory bandwidth usage.
Relatively little is known about the RSX but they seem to have done the same thing using additional cache (the chip is bigger than the equivalent PC part) and separate memory for the CPU.

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The PS3's CPU has potential, but it is not like it is crushing the Xbox 360 like a bug either - it will even be slower in some cases if the specialized units are not spesifically used or used well.

They're a lot less specialised than people think, you can even run normal code on them, just re-compile. That won't take advantage of them of course but that's equally true of all processors for high performance stuff.

The hype cuts both ways, be if for good things or bad things.


The thing is to play the games, that's what matters, not technical discussions about what may or may not be good inside.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator

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minator wrote: @jtsiren Quote: Maybe I bought into the marketing hype Maybe but by the sounds of it you also bought into the FUD...

Well, the noise-signal ratio at the moment is high as this is a hotly contested topic, but I don't think I am mistaken in my disappointment. The PS3 did not deliver to my expectation that was it would blow away the Xbox 360 on arrival - again, maybe that was too high an expectation, but I expected at least a similar advancement such as what the original Xbox was to PS2. Many knowledgeable people have compared the games as well as the tech and came to this conclusion. I doubt all of it really is FUD. (Of course PS3 will improve as software matures, who knows where it goes then.)

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Quote: we know have learned that all/most PS3 lauch-titles are in fact 720p too Last I read 7 are 1080p

I have no exact figures so I won't debate that. I'm sure PS3 has 1080p titles and Xbox 360 also has at least one. The thing that really surprised me, though, was that so many of the titles were 720p. I was expecting it to be 1080p across the board - that was the hype as I received it. Also I have read comparisons on multiplatformers and the PS3 did not deliver an improvement in those, in fact in some cases people felt it looked worse.

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Quote: can't even be scaled to 1080p If you have a 1080p TV it'll scale it for you. The fuss about BluRay not outputting 720p is much the same, all modern HD sets are *required* to handle the 1080i the PS3 can output.

Sure, but it is still a disappointment and something the Xbox 360 has and PS3 lacks. It may also improve quality for those whose television's scaler is worse than that of the Xbox's. Also, the point about more graphics chip grunt in the Xbox 360 - this coupled with the scaler just surprised me in the way the Xbox 360 really shines over the PS3 in this regard. I was expecting Xbox 360 to get a beating. Do you think the Xbox 360 got a beating?

I guess I shouldn't really be too surprised. After all, the PS3 and Xbox 360 were specced roughly the same time and PS3 was mostly delayed because of Blu-Ray. In many ways, they are more equal than say original Xbox and PS2 where Xbox was clearly later-day tech compared to PS2.

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Quote: I do put faith in Cell to give the PS3 longetivity as it is utilized more and more in the future, but I never expected it to have to compensate for shortcomings in the graphics department. According to developers this is *not* the case.

You have probably read the comments from a developer on AVS Forum (expressing real disappointment in PS3's graphical power but also excitement over Cell) and I've seen other comments suggesting the same. I doubt it's all FUD or misinformation, really. I do acknowledge the EA comments and other people also complimenting the PS3.

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Quote: The PS3's CPU has potential, but it is not like it is crushing the Xbox 360 like a bug either - it will even be slower in some cases if the specialized units are not spesifically used or used well. They're a lot less specialised than people think, you can even run normal code on them, just re-compile. That won't take advantage of them of course but that's equally true of all processors for high performance stuff.

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The hype cuts both ways, be if for good things or bad things.

But then I wasn't reading Microsoft's hype until very recently. I had already written off the whole box in my mind (I really don't know why, Xbox 360 is really good). It was the independent reviews that got me thinking and looking deeper in the issue. I was at the very least expecting a far clearer case for PS3 superiority and so far that has not materialized.

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The thing is to play the games, that's what matters, not technical discussions about what may or may not be good inside.

Sure, but I guess this discussion here has evolved into mostly discussing the technical superiority aspect and hence my comments.

When the original Xbox came out, one could see immediately it was superior to PS2. PS3 delivered no such initial blow and thus my disappointment. Again, as I said, if it does deliver later on something I want, I will be sure to get it. Be that because of later games taking out more power out of PS3 than the Xbox 360 can dish out (probably still debateable whether or not this will indeed happen - I don't know how much current games are taking out of the Xbox, e.g. multi-threading-wise), or because of some game I just want. (As for playing games, the rumble/force-feedback issue IMHO needs resolving at least for car games on PS3.)

I'm not saying Xbox 360 is signficantly better than the PS3. At best, all things considered, one could probably consider it an equal. Both dealing blows here and there. But I was expecting the PS3 to be clearly superior and so far this expectation has not been fulfilled, hence I'm not running out to get one any time soon.

If anything, I'm disappointed. I would have wanted it to kill the Xbox 360 so that I'd had a reason to upgrade.

@BrianK

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From launch until Dec of 06 there is estimated to be 1M+ Xbox360s sold in the UK.

It's actually 890k units sold in UK for 2005 and 2006 combined, which is actually tons better than the console did in other big European countries like Germany and France, much better than in Japan, and many times better than in Australia.

I learned NextGenWars is run by a kid who recently turned 18.

"I would just like to let everyone know that today is my birthday, and I am now 18 years old "

"I've looked at the trends of the sales of consoles from the past few years, and then I take press releases from the companies"

"I've figured out a way to estimate the rate at which they sale, so on the server it's actually got it counting up so people can see those changing in real time."

I am very impressed by what he has achieved with more than 1 million page hits per day and thousands of people linking to his statistics including Trezzer!

The most accurate sales data currently available for 2005 & 2006 regarding the new consoles currently is (2 months of Nintendo Wii and PS3 sales with shortages (PS3 only available in a few parts of the world), nearly 14 months of XBox 360 sales with enough supply to meet demand globally):

@jtsiren

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When the original Xbox came out, one could see immediately it was superior to PS2.

There is more than half a decade between the PS2 and XBox 360. There is only one year between the PS3 and XBox 360, so I think that's not really strange.

edit: Oh you mean the XBox 1, personally I didn't like that bulky beast. At least the PS2 greatly outlasted this discontinued PC/console. IMO the XBox 360 is a lot better. The PS2 has outsold all other non-handheld consoles this year and is expected to do well for next year as well.

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If anything, I'm disappointed. I would have wanted it to kill the Xbox 360 so that I'd had a reason to upgrade.

The current PS3 ports are better, equal or even worse compared to their XBox 360 counterparts. But the overall differences aren't that big though, IMO just about what you expect from multi-platform releases.

Reasons to upgrade may come later on, with the release of Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, Lair and maybe Warhawk around the European launch date. Later there will be other PS3 exclusive blockbusters including Gran Turismo 5, Killzone, WarDevil, Final Fantasy, etc. The total list of games being worked on is IMO very impressive, the new Eyetoy and TV Tuner may prove to become selling features as well.

Around the time of the c64, you could write a blockbuster game within a few months with a single digit team. Nowadays top blockbuster games often takes many years of development and planning with more than 100 developers working on the project.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 03:03 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 02:54 PM.

@MikeB

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I learned NextGenWars is run by a kid who recently turned 18.

Since when does it matter how old a person is compared to what he/she accomplishes?

Remember how a 15 year old guy fixed a problem Apple's engineers had been unable to fix over several releases of OS X?

I monitor both sites and compare their output to what I read elsewhere and vgcharts hasn't been the most impressive so far. Either way at the end of the day both use estimates (since vgcharts doesn't match realtime and they don't always update fast enough).

@MikeB

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Around the time of the c64, you could write a blockbuster game within a few months with a single digit team. Nowadays top blockbuster games often takes many years of development and planning with more than 100 developers working on the project.

This is true for the most part. Which it turn is the reason why there are no truly original games out these days, corporate funding requires a certain aspect of what THEY think the public want.

There is one thing recently that happened though, a game was released on the PC called Darwinia. The sales skyrockited and this 3 man team (one programmer, one marketing, one advertising) actually made sales above that of some of the big boys at its release. So bedroom programming is not out of the window yet. and oroginality always stems from the smaller tallent, rather than corporate influences.

@MikeB

Thanks for the correction on the UK.. I put it at slightly over 1M but yes my math was bad it is just shy of 1M.

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@jtsiren Quote: When the original Xbox came out, one could see immediately it was superior to PS2. There is more than half a decade between the PS2 and XBox 360. There is only one year between the PS3 and XBox 360, so I think that's not really strange.

But at the same time we see the Sony hype. Sony claims the PS2 is more powerful then the Xbox. That may be but for a variety of reasons the theoretical didn't translate to the real world use. Sony has talked up the Cell and how great it is. And it's a pretty little chip. However, it's not optimizied for gaming but media.

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The current PS3 ports are better, equal or even worse compared to their XBox 360 counterparts. But the overall differences aren't that big though, IMO just about what you expect from multi-platform releases.

Which is a bit sad. Last year the Sony fanboys were talking smack how Sony would not have shortages and the performances of the PS3 would simply shame the 360. Neither pointed out in the Sony Fanboy favor. I think you see this in the press as well. Most people do think the PS3 will be the winning console. I don't believe anyone thinks it'll hold a 70% marketshare that the PS2 enjoys.

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The total list of games being worked on is IMO very impressive, the new Eyetoy and TV Tuner may prove to become selling features as well.

No doubt all 3 have some nice titles coming in 2007. Sony's TV Tuner was to come on the PSX and this seemingly died. Sony has said a TV Tuner would come on the PS3 but as a new unit not an add-on.

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Around the time of the c64, you could write a blockbuster game within a few months with a single digit team. Nowadays top blockbuster games often takes many years of development and planning with more than 100 developers working on the project.

The Xbox360 offers a couple nice things for those developers that don't want to work with 100 people teams. One thing is the XNA setup which allows people at home to write their own games very C64 and Amiga like. Xbox Live Arcade is one where new games such as Geometry Wars and Uno sell very well. The other thing is the Gamerpoints system. This is gamer cred -- no more smack talking you can see if your friends completed the games they claim to have completed. It has encouraged game sells such as the Burger King games. This allows someone to gain points and compare themselves to their friends. Gamer points are a nice simple system that has a cooresponding game sales ability.

@BrianK

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But at the same time we see the Sony hype. Sony claims the PS2 is more powerful then the Xbox. That may be but for a variety of reasons the theoretical didn't translate to the real world use

Having never owned a PS2 nor original XBox I cannot judge this, however I know there are nice PS2 games available as Eugenia of OSNews pointed out to me and judging from the demo units I've tested. The only thing I do know is that the PS2 is still doing amazingly well and is far from being a dead console like the newer XBox already is and may very well outsell the XBox 360 during its lifecycle (not counting the units it sold before the XBox 360 launch).

http://www.consolecheatcodes.com/playstation2/ps2releasedates.html


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Sony's TV Tuner was to come on the PSX and this seemingly died. Sony has said a TV Tuner would come on the PS3 but as a new unit not an add-on.

The plans for a new PS3 based multimedia device does not imply adding a TV Tuner and CableCard adapter to the PS3 accessory list would be impossible.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 04:19 PM.

@Wraith2021

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There is one thing recently that happened though, a game was released on the PC called Darwinia. The sales skyrockited and this 3 man team (one programmer, one marketing, one advertising) actually made sales above that of some of the big boys at its release. So bedroom programming is not out of the window yet. and oroginality always stems from the smaller tallent, rather than corporate influences.

Yes there still is a market for bedroom coders, actually the internet has simplified things considerably in certain respects. One of my and my gf's favourite games is Warblade by Edgar M Vigdal! Handheld games for mobile phones, gameboys and PDAs can usually be done with much smaller teams, there are also smaller projects to be purchased from the PS3 network. However if you want to distribute millions of copies on DVD/Bluray media, perform global TV and Magazine advertising, etc you will end up with requirements of large teams and budgets.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jan-2007 at 04:27 PM.

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There are more important benefits for having a Blu-Ray drive inside the PS3, the disc has to spin much slower for achieving faster loadtimes, this benefits noise production. Another benefit is the additional disc space, for instance the XBox 360 game Blue Dragon already comes supplied on multiple DVDs, with the next PS3 Final Fantasy release this will not be the case. Also Blu-Ray disc are more resistant against scratching.

Apparently recently Microsoft tried to compare the XBox 360 and PS3 to the Ars Technica team, they stated the XBox 360 will not use a HD-DVD drive in the future for gaming.

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They downplayed a seeming Sony advantage on disc capacity: Sony games can come on Blu-ray discs that contain about seven times the data of the DVDs 360 games are made on. Not an issue, Henson said: " 'Gears' is using half a DVD."" MikeB: Why? Gear of War is a pretty short game. Why would it be bad if a game would become 4 to 8 times the size in actual game content? Speculation: Is Gears of War short to fit on a Single layer DVD to speed up loading times? That would sound like a plausible reason to state "Half a DVD ought to be enough for everyone!"

Play.tm: "Reports have emerged of late that some developers are bemoaning the storage limitations of the dual-layer DVD format employed by the Xbox 360, a situation which will be highlighted further when Sony launch the Blu-ray equipped PS3 later this year. For their part, Microsoft insist that developers are more than happy with the existing DVD standard."

@MikeB

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like the newer XBox already is

While the Xbox is being phased out hardware-wise it's not exactly a dead console.
Future Xbox releases - or from the same site you just linked to: more release dates.

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there are nice PS2 games available

Yup. There are nice GameCube, Dreamcast and Xbox games available too. I actually just pre-ordered three Dreamcast games that will be released in the next couple of months - nine years after the console's launch

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may very well outsell the XBox 360 during its lifecycle

It's at a price point where people will pick up a console including Guitar Hero or Buzz because it's within impulse purchase range, so yes. (and Guitar Hero is reason enough to own a PS2).

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The plans for a new PS3 based multimedia device does not imply adding a TV Tuner and CableCard adapter to the PS3 accessory list would be impossible.

Nope. But considering the luck Sony have had with add-ons it's reasonable to assume they'd be cautious about it at least. The ethernet adapter and harddrive had limited success, while PS2 didn't really have anyone to play against online till the slimline PS2 came out with built-in ethernet plug. I guess from their perspective this means they'd rather put out a dedicated machine like the PSX was supposed to be (which was only released in Japan if it ever was released - and at an insane price point which pretty much guaranteed it obscurity in advance).

@Trezzer

Several things: maybe i am missing something about the conversation here but, as an Xbox 360 "Premium" owner, why would I want an xbox with HDMI.. I have three HDTVs with all DVI connectors (but all of them luckily support HDCP because I bought them at the RIGHT time). HDMI might be a little nicer than DVI (smaller connector with audio connections), but everyone here is hoping the studios don't enable HDCP content flags, and from the current political direction it seems like that won't happen (fingers crossed).

Right now on XBOX Live Marketplace I can already download music and videos (much like you can on apple iTunes), and I have downloaded HD Content and watched it i.e. CSI:Miami... If I want to stream from my media center PC I can do that as well. I probably would like a bigger hard drive to store this content, but it's not a problem at this point. The quality of the content is great. I have yet to see Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo really promoting the media side of their services.

@MikeB

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Apparently recently Microsoft tried to compare the XBox 360 and PS3 to the Ars Technica team

So now we know you don't even bother reading the sources that are posted here, since the entire article was linked to.

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they stated the XBox 360 will not use a HD-DVD drive in the future for gaming.

This is in line with what they have been saying all along. DVD is more than sufficient for next-gen games. FYI the XBLA also has a limit of 50 MB for games. Does this limit the technical/visual quality? Check out Roboblitz which is done using the Unreal Engine 3 along with procedural synthesis for an answer on that.

Last edited by Trezzer on 07-Jan-2007 at 05:00 PM.

@MikeB

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For their part, Microsoft insist that developers are more than happy with the existing DVD standard

And Kojima says BluRay isn't big enough.

No matter what you do some people will never be satisfied. The question is whether the majority of developers will be happy with the solution. At the end of the day they would rather have 20 million potential customers than 5 million. It's about hitting the sweet spot. Note that this isn't a guess at the distribution of the future console market - merely that there's always a sweet spot and some will not be happy with it while the majority will.

@MikeB

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The only thing I do know is that the PS2 is still doing amazingly well and is far from being a dead console like the newer XBox already is and may very well outsell the XBox 360 during its lifecycle (not counting the units it sold before the XBox 360 launch).

Oh, that is definitely true. The same can be said of PSone, Sony was extremely succesful in prolonging that console's life and should be applauded for it. I think many things factor into this (speaking of PS2 now, but many things apply to PSone as well), e.g.:

- Slim-lining of console to make it more appealing to the consumer
- More non-gamer games appeal, e.g. Buzz, Eyetoy etc. (to whom the tech doesn't matter)
- Actively trying out new colors and bundles to find new markets (Xbox had, what, two colors at best?) and better overall manufacturer interest in the machine for a longer period of time

Microsoft had too little non-gamer content for the original Xbox and has showed no interest in making it stand the test of time by upgrades or repositioning the product on the market, other than price cuts. They clearly started end-of-lifing the original Xbox when the 360 got out. PS2 certainly has more appeal today than the original Xbox. Heck, I have one for Sing Star only so I'm not in a position to argue this... nor would I want to argue it!

The original Xbox was a bulky, ugly thing, but for a gamer it was clearly the superior machine. I compared in my own home several original Xbox launch games to some of the even newer PS2 games and the Xbox won each and every time. Certainly PS2's biggest shortcoming was the lack of/poor anti-aliasing, but there were other things as well - it simply didn't compute as fast, no matter how Sony tried to spun the emotion engine/vector units story.

The down-side of this superiority meets limited appeal of the original Xbox was that the minute better machines came along (Xbox 360 first) the original Xbox lost most of its reason for being. A crude way of putting it: It was no longer the best and its target audience much wanted the best. It didn't have the manufacturer interest or the market position to stand the test of time.

But when it was on top, it truly was on top.

I'm not sure the new Xbox will have that lasting appeal either, but then I'm not looking for that... I'm looking for the best games machine to fullfil my "serious" gaming needs.

@DonnieA2

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maybe i am missing something about the conversation here but, as an Xbox 360 "Premium" owner, why would I want an xbox with HDMI..

Well, I'm using VGA and I'm quite happy with that. If you have a lot of gear around your tv the analogue signal may catch some interference that you wouldn't get with HDMI since the signal is digital. I guess that a small converter at the output of current 360s would achieve this too.

I wish they would postpone HDMI some time yet - or perhaps put it out there without support for HDCP. As it is the 10 million current owners is a decent number when it comes to pressuring the movie studios. The HD-DVD drive seems to have sold surprisingly well after the initial slow start btw.