@AMiGR

Companies (such as motherboard component providers) work with Microsoft to make their hardware compatible with Windows and vice versa. AmigaOS4 cannot be compared with the way Microsoft does business, because the product is in an entirely different market position. Even with Linux, a widely popular open source OS you will often run into crucial problems when new hardware arrives. The main reason why YDL ran well on PPC Apple Macs were due to enormous re-engineering efforts by IBM.

What do you think will change if Amiga Inc buys all the AmigaOS4 IP and does all the development themselves? Yes, no more 3rd party licenses would be required, as they own it all. Would this mean if tomorrow they decide to run on the Nintendo Wii, the next day they are running fully featured on the hardware, the day after they decide to run on 64-bit-dual core x86 hardware and the next day they support all the motherboard chips together with DirectX-killer hardware accelerated 3D graphics support, etc, etc?

Yes a new deal needs to be negotiated. Yes if third parties are involved there will be contracts and licenses, limiting what can be done with any used 3rd party IP.

@AMiGR

Quote:

But it doesn't paint a better picture either, it just means that you do not use the Amiga anyway

I do use my Amiga, it's not my primary machine (maybe I use WinUAE/Amiga Forever more than my Amiga nowadays, so what? I am not entitled to follow AmigaOS4's progress, I am not allowed to use AmigaOS4 on a friend's system?), what are you talking about?

@MikeB

Quote:

Companies (such as motherboard component providers) work with Microsoft to make their hardware compatible with Windows and vice versa. AmigaOS4 cannot be compared with the way Microsoft does business, because the product is in an entirely different market position. Even with Linux, a widely popular open source OS you will often run into crucial problems when new hardware arrives.

Microsoft does not *force* them to work with them, though, the SDKs are there, the DDKs are here, THAT is the difference. This way of business would make FAR more sense for AmigaOS4, an OS with no significant user, hardware or developer base or any market influence than it does for Microsoft, which reinforces my point. Imagine if Microsoft said "let's lock down Windows, only licensed hardware will work with it" tomorrow. They'd be whining but they WOULD prevail, because they have ENORMOUS market influence. Amiga Inc on the other hand CANNOT do this, because they have exactly NO market influence, yet they are trying to.

Quote:

The main reason why YDL ran well on PPC Apple Macs were due to enormous re-engineering efforts by IBM.

Apples with oranges comparison, yet again, that was an attempt to run an OS on close undocumented hardware, not to write hardware drivers for a very well documented and incredibly well supported OS.

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@MikeB

I'm talking about the fact that you're saying that you were not basically worth an A1, as Beta-testers, developers and users that have it as their primary machine have priority, even if most of the A1 owners are none of the above.

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@MikeB or AMiGR

I'm a bit confused now, but then I'm always a bit in the dark on these issues.

Can you explain what exactly needs to be renegotiated with who? Who or what is preventing a port to the PS3 at this moment?

Thanks.

Last edited by clebin on 31-Jan-2007 at 12:13 AM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Microsoft said "let's lock down Windows

If you make hardware/chips Windows doesn't work well on, I think you will run into trouble with Microsoft if you want to market this as a Windows compatible solution.

At least this makes sense as Windows may be blamed for performing badly (for instance instability), while that's not actually the case.

Quote:

I'm talking about the fact that you're saying that you were not basically worth an A1, as Beta-testers, developers and users that have it as their primary machine have priority, even if most of the A1 owners are none of the above.

I wait for a reviewable system. The MicroA1 could have been such a system, if it was currently available.

I have seen lots of zealot attacks in the past, maybe when I demoed AmigaOS4 to the 3Sat/ZDF TV crew I should have added that they aren't allowed to state their opinions with regard to the AmigaOne or AmigaOS4 according to zealots in the community. I didn't because I thought that would be a crazy thing to do.

Of course for doing a review you must have been significantly exposed to the machine, but for a preview article/TV coverage this isn't required. Although I have extensively used AmigaOS4 on AmigaOne hardware, I have never installed the OS myself.

I did not say that I'm not worth AOS4/A1, I said that IMO AOS4/A1 wasn't ready yet for an indepth review at the time of hardware availability and developers have been complaining that they didn't have AmigaOS4 hardware.

For instance, one of the last boards Rose had available went to a university professor which he wanted programming students to use and learn, and then contribute to projects aimed at porting open source applications.

Last edited by MikeB on 31-Jan-2007 at 12:32 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

If you make hardware/chips Windows doesn't work well on, I think you will run into trouble with Microsoft if you want to market this as a Windows compatible solution.

Again, you did not get my point in the slightest. To advertise it as an *official* Windows compatible motherboard, need a license. *HOWEVER*. Not a licence NOR Microsoft is *needed* to write Windows drivers for your board and bring it to market for users and OEMs to use. You could market it by saying that it comes with Windows drivers, no problem with that. Whether it works right or not is your problem, not Microsofts, if it does NOT work correctly, you'll just fail to get a driver certification if you want to pay to get such a thing. This certification is NOT needed for Windows to run on your hardware, all that is needed is your board to be standards compliant and the necessary drivers to be written by you or a third party.

Quote:

At least this makes sense as Windows may be blamed for performing badly (for instance instability), while that's not actually the case.

Hm, let me guess then. Half the motherboard manufacturers in the market would have been out of business, as every single company has released buggy crap before, with buggy drivers that hardly work for more than 5 minutes. Or do you want me to start on the *certified* GFX drivers for various very well known company's hardware items that failed to work correctly?

Last edited by AMiGR on 31-Jan-2007 at 12:39 AM.

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@clebin

Quote:

Can you explain what exactly needs to be renegotiated with who? Who or what is preventing a port to the PS3 at this moment?

There need not be a problem if the parties come to a new agreement.

Currently from my perspective, if Amiga Inc wants to do the port then Hyperion or OS4 component developers could prevent this. If Hyperion wants to do the port without a new agreement, Amiga Inc must legally prevent this (required by law to protect IP). But let's not worry too much, let business take its course, but IMO time=money so let's hope everything is done quickly.

@MikeB

Quote:

There need not be a problem if the parties come to a new agreement.

One of the parties have already said that it's like talking to a stone wall while the other has said that a certain issue is up to the lawyers now. I **HOPE** that it'll work out in the end but let's not assume that everything is rosy now.


Back on topic: Real japanese sales figures. The DS is leading, the DS comes second.
http://vgcharts.org/japweekly.php

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@AMiGR

Hyperion already has a license to release a standalone version of AmigaOS4 aimed at (marketd for) the classics.

So what you would like to see is uncertified hardware which cannot be bundled with AmigaOS, and neither can be marketed as being Amiga compatible.

This is already possible with any hardware be it PS3 or top level x86 hardware. For instance in many countries it's perfectly legal to use a Wine-type solution or emulation layer to run anything you already own.

@MikeB

Quote:

Hyperion already has a license to release a standalone version of AmigaOS4 aimed at (marketd for) the classics.

That is part of the original contract, not a separate licence.

Quote:

So what you would like to see is uncertified hardware which cannot be bundled with AmigaOS, and neither can be marketed as being Amiga compatible.

No, what I would like to see would be Hyperion being free to port to whatever target hardware they want, off the self or not, so that if it's off the shelf, anyone can go out and buy the OS nice and boxed to use on his hardware. Yes, it *could* be marketed as Amiga "compatible", it could not be marketed as Amiga. Where do you think the PC industry would be now if you weren't allowed to call something compatible to something you do not own or pay for? (See: IBM PC compatibles).

Quote:

his is already possible with any hardware be it PS3 or top level x86 hardware.

It is? Post some instructions then.

Quote:

For instance in many countries it's perfectly legal to use a Wine-type solution or emulation layer to run anything you already own.

Can you list any countries where it is not, in fact?

Last edited by AMiGR on 31-Jan-2007 at 01:09 AM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 31-Jan-2007 at 01:07 AM.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

Back on topic: Real japanese sales figures. The DS is leading, the DS comes second.

Those figures are one week old, I reported on those earlier within this thread (600,750 units sold as of the 21st of January, as reported earlier). We are still waiting for the new figures to arrive.

Latest news:

The PS3 was sold out in Canada, the were rumours Future Shop received new stock, but almost sold out it seems:
http://consolewatch.com/

The PS3 currently ranks number 1 as bestseller over at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/ref=pd_ts_h/103-0264706-9795001

@AMiGR

Ouch, PS3 gets beaten by PS2. Not good considering there is no shortage of PS3's in Japan.

Skunkfish

EDIT: Also noticed that out of the top 50 software titles, 0 are for the PS3. Wii has seven. Am surprised to see PS3 off to such a slow start in Japan compared to the Wii, especially since the Gamecube did poorly there.

Last edited by Skunkfish on 31-Jan-2007 at 01:12 AM.

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Currently planning to upgrade my Amstrad CPC

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: The PS3 currently ranks number 1 as bestseller over at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/ref=pd_ts_h/103-0264706-9795001

Indeed it is, but the Nintendo Wii is sold out on Amazon and going used and new for $418 (as opposed to the $249 RRP)

Skunkfish

Last edited by Skunkfish on 31-Jan-2007 at 01:20 AM.

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Currently planning to upgrade my Amstrad CPC

@Skunkfish

Quote:

Ouch, PS3 gets beaten by PS2.

IMO the slimline PS2s are still viable products.

Regarding the PSOne (Wikipedia):

"It was released in July 7, 2000,[3] and went on to outsell all other consoles—including Sony's own brand-new PlayStation 2—throughout the remainder of the year. "

So IMO this doesn't say too much, as the PS2 outsold the PSX/PSOne. There have been no killer PS3 games so far aimed at the Japanese market, although we know they are coming.

@BrianK

Quote:

65nm Cell is a good thing. Are you sure it'll make it into the PS3? Reports I saw on the 65nm Cell was that it was announced and at 6Ghz speeds but not yet in full production.

This is from a new announcement yesterday (30/01/07), it was by Sony. It was always going to be in PS3, that's been Sony's plan all along. They were showing a roadmap as far back as 2005.

That it runs up to 6GHz means IBM can put them into faster blades (with lots more RAM). They'll most likely keep them at 3.2GHz for the PS3.

Quote:

Assuming Sony is ready with the PS1/2 software emulation layer perhaps that hardware will come out, saving further hardware costs. While doubting a price cut this year they did one in Japan already so you never know.

There's more room for price drops, yes. RSX will be shrunk as will the other parts. They're also apparently planning on going to higher density RAM chips for RSX and Cell, this might cut the number of motherboard layers.

--

Was it you complained about the lack of force feedback?
Someone hooked up a FF controller and a copy of Need For Speed Carbon - it worked.

--

Japanese figures...
However old they are they're still not good!
However there may be an explanation in the offing...
I read today that Japanese as a whole spent rather less on consumer good than US or EU, that'll be hurting any high priced goods - including the PS3.

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Whyzzat?

@AMiGR

Quote:

AMiGR wrote: @MikeB Quote: If you make hardware/chips Windows doesn't work well on, I think you will run into trouble with Microsoft if you want to market this as a Windows compatible solution. Again, you did not get my point in the slightest. To advertise it as an *official* Windows compatible motherboard, need a license. *HOWEVER*. Not a licence NOR Microsoft is *needed* to write Windows drivers for your board and bring it to market for users and OEMs to use.

I don't think you need a licence to merely market your hardware as being Windows compatible.

You do need a licence to use e.g. the "Made for Windows" trademark, or to have your drivers "Certified for Windows". Maybe that's what you meant by "official", but your point didn't seem to penetrate the brick wall you're up against. :)

Edit:
@MikeB
Are you planning to sell PS3s? Are you planning to market them to AmigaOS customers?
(I mean literally, not all the threads like this one.)

Last edited by Seehund on 31-Jan-2007 at 02:05 AM.

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Oh, bother.

@MikeB

Thanks - that's pretty much as bad as I feared, although I'd forgotten the non-Hyperion developers. I can't be as confident as you about those negotiations.

The most remarkable thing is still that Amiga Inc broke months or years silence with the community to dismiss Hyperion's work on OS 4 in favour of a mysterious, possibly made-up, in-house OS 5 when there was no need to speak to the public.

Even if it's not in the forefront of everyone's minds these days, any negotiations must be considered in the light of that. Even if they have the power to patch things up with Hyperion and make OS 4 on PS 3 work, they're perfectly capable of pressing the self-destruct button instead. I don't have much faith in them.

Chris

@jtsiren

Quote:

Many people were quite capable of seeing the flaws of the Amiga Inc. licensing policy, it did not require a crystal ball. The logic was a flawed then, as it is now. I thought so then - I signed the petition - and I think so now. You keep saying it was the only way Amiga Inc. allowed OS4 to be developed? Maybe so, maybe so... or who knows if they would have changed their minds if Hyperion would have pushed them enough back then instead of publicly supporting the policy? But even if we just place the responsibility of that to Amiga Inc.'s corner, it still doesn't make the policy any less flawed. No matter who came up with it, IMHO the mandatory licensing policy was clearly a failure, at least as far as the Amiga community interests are concerned. Maybe it helped Eyetech to rule the small market for a while? Failure because it has hindered OS4 porting and marketing already (devs confirm this) and failure because the original goals such as quality control for hardware clearly were not met. I do not understand how anyone could see any good in this history. I can't wait for O4 to be freed of that burden. I hope they succeed. Every passing day is a day OS4 looses something waiting for that hardware with license to appear. Hyperion is the one really good thing to come out of the present-day Amiga partnership, I just wish they wouldn't have aligned themselves behind these policies (and the MAI fiasco) back then... that was a mistake, but they certainly make up for it by delivering the product they have.

I'm not really sure, but I think I know why Hyperion publicly supported the policy. They were afraid of piracy. And I even remember that Hyperion has said this in public. Can't find a link so quickly though. And I guess that's why Alan was always claiming that the A1 board was different from any other MAI board out there, making sure that everyone that wanted OS4 would stick with them (Eyetech and Hyperion).

I remember that there was discussion about this issue and that there were people who said Eyetech was ripping us of and we should be able to buy any MAI PPC board and have OS4 running on it.

If at that time OS4 wasn't bundled with the Eyetech board, Alan would have backed out. Well, that's my theory. I think Hyperion wanted to have a "reliable" hardware partner and not just any board maker that shipped the board with Linux, where you had to buy OS4 as an option. We all can see where that would have gone...

In short, no policy, no OS4 and no G3/G4 boards.

I see the PS3 as the most viable platform for OS4. It's subsidized hardware, configuration won't change, will be available for many years to come, hardware specs that can last a couple of years (although you can debate about that, but I think it will still beat the "average" PC in 3 years) and Sony allows other OS's on the PS3. I have seen reports where they say the PS3 Linux community is very active, so we can expect lots of information about the inner workings of the PS3.

If we would base it on PC hardware, we will always get discussion on getting the newest GFX and SFX cards to run under OS4. Not a situation I would like to see, as I have seen these discussions already on the A1.

@Seehund

Quote:

I don't think you need a licence to merely market your hardware as being Windows compatible.

Not sure but your drivers wouldn't be signed if you didn't.

That's not a problem with XP (other than annoying users) but IIRC with Vista that's changed - non-signed drives no longer work. Furthermore the driver can be "revoked" while it's working if the relevant company don't pay up.

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Whyzzat?