@MikeB

Quote:

Like I said 1080p / 60FPS over component isn't supported by the PS3, therefore I believe it's important to point this out to potentially dissapointed consumers.

They'd have to make sure they have HDCP on their HDMI too or they're getting no hi-def lovin'. That rules out a lot of DVI monitors (most in fact).

And we can easily agree that HDMI is great - personally I don't have anything that uses it yet though (though I could spring for an adapter)

@Trezzer

Quote:

Yes. I'm fully aware of those issues. The comparison wasn't done with flawed HD content though.

The comparsion was done on released Blu-Rays. Oh yeah and a couple of early Blu-Ray players supposedly had their own issues too. Likely if HD content was flawed we'd see the same sort of thing. Blu-ray or HD-DVD is media if the content saved on it is bad then the media won't improve it. The talk seems to be is early HD tools were better then early Blu-Ray tools, supposedly this problem has been resolved.


@MikeB
Quote:

1080p / 60FPS over component isn't supported by the PS3, therefore I believe it's important to point this out to potentially dissapointed consumers.

Many TVs don't support this natively either. I believe Sony's XB2 & XB3 are among the TVs that can't do 1080p over component.

Quote:

there is a black 360

Don't get too excited. 360 development kits were black. Also, there are black skins available for the 360. There's also the simple answer of black spray paint. Thus, finding a black 360 and posting pictures to create a rumor would be relatively easy.

Quote:

about built-in Wi-Fi and Flashcard readers

Some USB readers reportely work. But what about the PS3's inability to stream content from a central server? Sure you can replace the harddrive but do you really want to trust a single harddrive with up to 1GB of content? I sure don't. Makes sense to me to use a central server so the content is available to all of the consoles in my house along with providing RAID-5 redundancy and a backup methodology. Don't know much about Europe but in the USA the average home now has slightly more then 1 TV per person. It's very nice to stream to the 360 in one room and to the Xbox in the other room from the server in a 3rd room. PS3 needs something like this natively that doesn't require a Linux OS upgrade.

Now we've seen rumors from Sony of the DVR version of the PS3. Until we see the final product and pricing, rumored pricing is really high, it'll be hard to tell how attractive it'll be.

Also, do iPods work with the PS3 yet?

More HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray news:

Microsoft plans to launch their HD-DVD drive in Australia around the time of the PS3 launch, but a major retailer in Australia has said they will only stock Blu-Ray content:

Read here and here

@BrianK

Quote:

Don't get too excited. 360 development kits were black. Also, there are black skins available for the 360. There's also the simple answer of black spray paint. Thus, finding a black 360 and posting pictures to create a rumor would be relatively easy.

I guess what makes this rumor more believable are all the images and the video of HDMI Xbox 360's doing the rounds and that the black Xbox 360 rumor didn't even include a photo this time around - it was simply a reference to this retailers meeting where this information was allegedly handed out by Microsoft (even the retailer was named), not someone posting an image to generate buzz...

It could also be that the information about a black system is incorrect (that it was in fact only a development machine people saw), but that still wouldn't rule out HDMI, larger hard-drive and noise improvements.

But you are right of course, it is still just a rumor.

@MikeB

.Quote:

Microsoft plans to launch their HD-DVD drive in Australia around the time of the PS3 launch, but a major retailer in Australia has said they will only stock Blu-Ray content:

Just to make it clear, those news aren't really connected, even if you make it sound like they are.

Blu-ray certainly has an edge on the marketing side. Too bad HD-DVD is far superior on the interactivity side still. Interesting to see if both survive. If only one wins, I think it would probably be Blu-ray, but both might also stay around

Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 03:07 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Just to make it clear, those news aren't really connected, even if you make it sound like they are.

Not directly, but indirectly they are relevant towards each other, certainly most interesting to potential HD-DVD add-on customers in Australia.

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 04:07 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Not directly, but indirectly there are relevant towards each other, certainly most interesting to potential HD-DVD add-on customers in Australia.

Yeah, but you did make it sound like Microsoft got the cold shoulder from those retailer guys...

How significant is this retailer, do you know? The news suggest people just go to another retailer so I'm wondering how significant all this is.

In many parts of the world it is still early days in the HD movie business. In Finland I think only few select stores carry either HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Both are certainly available, but you have to know where to look, or order online. It is still early to say how the retailer part of it all will shape up. HD-DVD benefits from the lack of region coding, though, but that will mostly affect enthusiasts.

But no question about it, Blu-ray has the momentum. I'm just trying to look at it a bit more impassionately to see what the real story is.

Edit: One comment I found: "I think this will probably be the first HD-DVD player in Australia. Blu-Ray has been here for about 3 months now so technically it has the lead, but it's nearly impossible to even find them in shops, only 1 retailer I know of carries them. It'll be interesting to see if the popularity of the 360 helps to propel this format ahead downunder." ... doesn't sound all that different to where I live, HD is still like some rarer high-tech hi-fi or Amiga equipment for that matter :), you have to know where to get it.

Last edited by jtsiren on 14-Feb-2007 at 03:30 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

It could also be that the information about a black system is incorrect (that it was in fact only a development machine people saw), but that still wouldn't rule out HDMI, larger hard-drive and noise improvements.

Correct, while all are rumors today they can't be ruled out.

The 360 videocard is made by ATI it's highly doubtful it couldn't output digital to HDMI. It's definitely a possibility to have HDMI included. I've give this a possible.

Larger harddrives -- of course a possiblity and pricing of drives continue to drop and thus at some point a larger drive will make it out. I'd give this a highly likely.

Noise improvements -- 65nm has been announced and should be shipping sometime this summer. Likely there's no CPU improvements or increased clock modes so 65nm will be cooler and thus the fans should spin less and be more quiet. New DVD drives are out and reportedly quieter then the first 2 manufactures. HD-DVD playback is quiet I can't see much improvement there. I'd give this a definite.

Black -- other colors are possible it's only plastic. The question is will they see it as a necessity to do . Costs are less if they stick to 1 color. This in turn could make them more money or allow them to decrease pricing to consumers. I'd give this as a lower possibility.

Again as of today Microsoft has said rumors. I believe the rumors said April in Australia. We'll see what comes.

@jtsiren

Quote:

In many parts of the world it is still early days in the HD movie business. In Finland I think only few select stores carry either HD-DVD or Blu-ray

For a US perspective the retailers here carry both. Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, Wal-Mart all carry both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

I don't know the background so can't make any conclusions but Target yesterday had an equal number of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD spaces. HD-DVD spaces were over 50% empty. Blu-Ray had one empty space. Each one only had 1-2 of any single title for the ones in stock. I don't think this can tell us anything without knowing more of the shipment/sold for that one store but an observation.

PS: those still looking for a PS3 -- Target had 3 in stock. The guy said 4 came in Saturday and none since. They're definitely to be easily found here.

@BrianK

You really need to open your eyes and this time I mean it seriously.

SHIPPED != SOLD

You have no substantial proof that the 1.5 million shipped was equal to sold. Yet you still use this figure as sold. No matter how many theories you put up here, there is no proof. PERIOD!

Questioning the accuracy of the 25% is not the same as saying the 25% was sold too.

The reason why I responded like I did was because the yawn was out of place in my opinion. If that offended you, perhaps that says a lot about you. At least I didn't see any reason why all of a sudden you had to use the F word.

If your yawn wasn't rude, why would my remark about you opening your eyes be rude? If your yawn was about the post, why would my remark about opening your eyes not be about the post? Seems like you are the one that is making the wrong assumptions.

And I'm not playing mother hen here, I'm just doing the same thing Trezzer was doing: debunking misinformation. Just because you answered MikeB, doesn't mean I should stay out of it. Again, this is a public forum.

Oh, and that yawn really showed respect to MikeB. Do note this isn't about MikeB, this is about your behaviour. The fact that you still haven't come up with any substantial proof that the 25% was actually sold, proves that the yawn was out of place.

Next time when you use the F word, just reread that part of the thread a couple times before you actually post. Because in my opinion there really was no reason for using it.

@jiyong

Quote:

The fact that you still haven't come up with any substantial proof that the 25% was actually sold

The proof is that the 360 in Dec 05 and Jan 06 could not be had because it was selling out so quickly. Now where's the proof that 25% were on shelves?

I found an interesting comment:

Quote:

Even though the game doesn't delegate SPUs to specific tasks, each SPU is called on to do jobs in a priority basis. And because each SPU can process vertex shading tasks hand-in-hand with the RSX graphics engine, the game can render more than the usual vertex shading programs to deliver that superb "WOW!" effect.

Didn't know that the SPU is used for rendering, yet. That is earlier then I did expect. Comment about developing F1 Championship Edition: http://ps3.qj.net/F1-Championship-Edition-living-breathing-example-of-the-PS3-s-power/pg/49/aid/82785

Under linux the SPUs are (usually) allocated dynamically and a "spu thread" is created to execute the code. However, AFAIS, an SPU thread can also allocate a dedicated SPU.

Last edited by Jorge on 14-Feb-2007 at 05:18 PM.
Last edited by Jorge on 14-Feb-2007 at 05:18 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE G3/933/VIA/FM801/R200 (fixed),
G3SE/600/Voodoo3/Sil680/RTL8139/SBLive! (noiseless!)
µA1-MK2/G3/933/R200/CMI8738
XE/G4 (broken 7450/800)

@jtsiren

Quote:

How significant is this retailer, do you know?

For Australia they are pretty significant, they have 72 JB Hi-Fi stores, they own 70% of the Clive Anthonys Electrical Superstore chain of stores (6, soon expanded to 8) and in New Zealand they are set to soon open at least 3 more JB Hi-Fi stores. and will buy the electrical chain Hill & Stewart (11 stores) by March.

Anyway also interesting: A new Blu-Ray recorder from Sharp:
http://crunchgear.com/2007/02/14/sharp-puts-blu-ray-over-the-top/

1200 USD should be available in March.

@Jorge

Quote:

F1 Championship Edition

Quote:

The game allows the player to race against 21 other cars in a single track. A single car on the track uses as much memory as 22 cars would use for the PS2 version. Everything they had estimated came close enough that difficulties in realizing the next-generation level of detail for the game were minimal. And the weather effects... whew! Are they a sight to look at or what? Ankers explained that the game models realistic rain. And it's not done on a looped way like other games have done before. The rain is simulated per droplet, meaning each drop can have a different impact effect, splash direction and splash area on the car, your helmet view and on moving parts like tires. Cars veering off course or navigating turns will actually show how water sprays off the wheels from the wet track or from the rain. The game models each droplet by using the PS3's unique CELL architecture. Even though the game doesn't delegate SPUs to specific tasks, each SPU is called on to do jobs in a priority basis. And because each SPU can process vertex shading tasks hand-in-hand with the RSX graphics engine, the game can render more than the usual vertex shading programs to deliver that superb "WOW!" effect.

The game should support up to 11 players online:

You can check out a preview video below.
http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1672

Digital connections are assumed to be better than analogue but if you read into the subject it's not quite that simple.

If upscaled 480i content can look better than native HD, I wonder can the same filters have a similar effect on native HD.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@MikeB

Quote:

For Australia they are pretty significant, they have 72 JB Hi-Fi stores...

But to take this beyond quoting press releases and Wikipedia, I was more interested in how this store compares to the Australian hi-fi, or more importantly I guess, home movie retail market. Those numbers are impressive to be sure, but without comparisons to what the market and its movers and shakers are in Australia, it is hard to place the proper significance on the news. For instance, how much of Australia's DVDs percentagewise does JB Hi-Fi sell? Any Australians to comment?

I think in Finland any major store is yet to commit to either format. Usually big stores only have DVDs, it is still mostly up to small specialists to sell the HD formats. The best one stocks both formats, more HD-DVD until recently, but Blu-ray is catching up now that availability of Blu-ray discs is better.

@BrianK

Quote:

The proof is that the 360 in Dec 05 and Jan 06 could not be had because it was selling out so quickly. Now where's the proof that 25% were on shelves?

You said yourself that some units (do note I'm not using numbers here) might be in shipping. Doesn't mean they are sitting on the shelf, but doesn't mean they were sold to consumers either.

You questioned the 25% and therefore didn't want to use those numbers. I pointed out to you with your own words that you can't prove those 25% were all sold, yet you have no problem using it.

Very strange to me.

And the fact that you are challenging me about the claim that 25% was on the shelf proves you need to learn to read better. This was not my claim and not my point.

My point was that if you didn't want to use the sales figures because you had your doubts about it, meant for me you couldn't use the 1.5 million as sold as you have no substantial proof for that either. The fact that there were pre-orders in the US doesn't mean that the 25% was accounted for, as you have no proof for the amount of pre-orders and all other various reasons like in shipping.

@jiyong

Quote:

You said yourself that some units (do note I'm not using numbers here) might be in shipping

Umm no. I questioned MikeB on his 25% of 360s were unsold in the USA in Nov-Dec 05. I supposed an answer for him wondering if they may possibly be in shipping. I didn't state I knew where MikeB was getting his numbers.

Quote:

You questioned the 25% and therefore didn't want to use those numbers. I pointed out to you with your own words that you can't prove those 25% were all sold, yet you have no problem using it.

I stated the 25% is an over estimate. Late Dec 05 the 360s were flying off of the shelves. There simply wasn't 25% of units hiding on some plane or collecting dust on shelves. Let's say for the sake of arguement there were 25% of units still on a plane. Various companies such as Best Buy and Gamestop had pre-sold those units still in shipping. They are sold there's an end user waiting, there's no indication those sold units weren't taken out. My arguement, which I'll stand by for 2005 is that shipped and sold are statistically close enough to the same. Now for 2006 where we see product on shelfs and product in shipping one can more fairly argue that shipping != sold and they'd be right.

Quote:

the fact that you are challenging me about the claim that 25% on the shelf proves you need to learn to read better.

Yo' bud you're the one arguing and questioning the 25% which is why I'm answering you ; this proves that you need to know what you wrote better.

@minator

Quote:

If upscaled 480i content can look better than native HD

Of course you need the proper equipment to take full advantage of HD viewing pleasure, of course Blu-Ray content will shine most at its native resolution and on a large enough good quality display. Some comparison shots of DVD upscaled and Blu-Ray downscaled to a 768p display:

DVD upscaled to output 1080i (Pioneer DV490V Player) for display, then the display scales the image to 768p:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/scrattSD.jpg
DVD upscaled with XBox 360 to 768p:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/XBOXIA2.jpg
DVD played through the PS3 (480p native) upscaled by display to 768p:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/PS3IASD1.jpg
Blu-Ray downscaled to 1080i (PS3 set to output 1080i) , display accepts 1080i source scales the picture to 768p:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/PS3IABR1.jpg

Detail comparison:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/closeup1.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/closeup2.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/closeup3.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/closeup4.jpg

Upscaled DVD:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageSD.jpg

Downscaled Blu-Ray:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageBR.jpg

Upscaled DVD
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/DVDsd.jpg

Downscaled Blu-Ray:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/BRs.jpg

Of course we also have to take into account photocamera limitations, so I think it's best to let someone demonstrate the quality difference to you if you are interested. Of course still all these pictures were taken by the same camera.

On a large screen 720p projector:
http://crtforum.com/img/cliff09.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff12.jpg

More Blu-Ray display photos (downscaled 1080p>1080i>768p)
Ant Bully
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/AB2.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/AB3.jpg
Open Season
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/1open3.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/1open2.jpg

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 07:50 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 07:49 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 07:43 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 07:39 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Feb-2007 at 07:38 PM.

@minator

Quote:

Digital connections are assumed to be better than analogue but if you read into the subject it's not quite that simple.

Great point! TVs convert signal from analogue and digital sources. DVD players and game machines do their own conversions. PS3 does conversions in software. Xbox360 does conversions in hardware. All these solutions are made by different manufactures. All these solutions have positives and negatives in their ability. Each user should test their equipment and different options to see what they like best.

One example is my DVD player does internal digital to analog conversion to output sound OR if using fiber outputs digitally and lets the receiver do the conversion. If the receiver has a crappy D-A conversion it may be better to let the high end DVD player to the audio conversion. If the receiver has the top of the line D-A converter and it's better then the DVD player then it's better to let the receiver do the conversion. In my setup in testing digital fiber to let the receiver do it sounded better to me.. So that's what I use.