@Trezzer

Quote:

Well, again no-one has ever thought that the 360 would be the dominant system

Agreed. I don't think Xbox 360 will dominate in any way. But I do think it may get a far larger market share than the previous Xbox. Considering the guess that PS3 will likely be on the market for far longer than Xbox 360, I think it is pretty clear PS3 will also sell larger numbers in total. And hey, it IS a PlayStation. Brand means a lot.

In reality, though, none of that interests me much beyond sheer fun of debating online. I really just want the best gaming experience.

And for that, the PS3 currently offers nothing new for me compared to Xbox 360. Xbox 360 offers more - in the future, who knows how that will change or not.

Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:09 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:05 AM.

(double post)

Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:04 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

The SPUs are heavily involved in the graphics pipeline and do an enormous amount of work to eliminate inefficiency before anything arrives at the PPU and RSX. For example, the SPUs are powerful enough to decompress and check every triangle [polygon] before passing it on to the RSX. Triangles that are facing away from the player, or that are not on the screen can be 'trimmed' away by the SPUs, which hugely reduces the amount of redundant work sent to the RSX. This in turn lets the RSX get on with what it does best--drawing stuff on screen.

Refer to ATi's multi-level HSRs and HyperZ techniques.
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/video/r580plus-part2.html

"Peak efficiency of culling invisible triangles (without applying textures/with texturing), depending on geometry complexity
...
As we can see, the R580+ demonstrates no significant changes from the R580 in practical tests. But the HSR efficiency is lower for the R580+. This is most likely a measurement error, as it was on a par with the previous chip at the R580 frequencies. HyperZ buffers might have been increased, but we saw nothing like performance gains. But even in this case the hierarchical HSR from ATI is much more efficient than a single-level HSR in NVIDIA solutions. Especially it concerns scenes of high and average complexity, all the chips are similar in relatively simple scenes".

G70 architecture is less efficient than Xenos or R5xx. SPU is a good fix for RSX.

PS; Vertex shader weakness in R580 is not applicable in Xenos i.e. this is due to unified shaders’s multi-threading dispatch front end. R580 only applies multi-threading dispatch front end to pixel shader units. Issues from R5xx not applicable to R600(Radeon X2800)/610 (Radeon X2300)/R630(Radeon X2600).

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:24 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

G70 architecture is less efficient than Xenos or R5xx. SPU is a good fix for RSX.

Yeah, I guess that is in line with the speculation that SPUs have to be used in some cases to get comparable performance out of the RSX than what Xbox 360 can do natively. That was one of the disappointments of PS3 for me, because I expected PS3 to have both the superior graphics grunt and the SPUs. Many of the things MikeB listed can also be done on the multiple cores of Xbox 360 or even using the multi-threading features of its graphics chips, but it will be interesting to see which technology maxes out first.

I wouldn't know which will - I don't think anyone can say for sure.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Yeah, I guess that is in line with the speculation that SPUs have to be used in some cases to get comparable performance out of the RSX than what Xbox 360 can do natively. That was one of the disappointments of PS3 for me, because I expected PS3 to have both the superior graphics grunt and the SPUs

Well, Sony didn't include a cut down G80, while MS included "work-in-progress" next generation R600.

PS; Like PowerVR, AMD is licensing (since Jan 2007) their Radeon IP to other corporations (e.g. ST-Micro) not just Microsoft.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Feb-2007 at 08:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Feb-2007 at 08:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:44 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Well, Sony didn't include a cut down G80, while MS included "work-in-progress" next generation R600.

Yep, I should have done my homework better instead of believing in Sony's hype... Then I guess it wouldn't have come as a surprise.

Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 07:58 AM.

@jtsiren

Note that ATI (part of AMD) and NVIDA’s are specialized in providing high performance GPUs. There’s no way for Sony to compete against companies whose sole existence is to design and provide high performance GPUs. Both ATI (assimilated by AMD) and NVIDA are in peak of their game.

In graphic processors (massively paralleled stream processors) arena, the fight is basically between two green teams i.e. AMD(ATI) vs NVIDIA. Other GPU providers are caught between a broadside gun battle between ATI (AMD) and NVIDIA.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Feb-2007 at 08:08 AM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

Isn't it? While the 360 hasn't made the PS2 numbers I don't think it was expected to. It's the growth of marketshare that Microsoft is looking for.

Fourth quarter 2006 sales data for Australia.

1) PS2 122,639 added to an install base of millions.
2) Wii (first 3 weeks available) 51,744
3) XBox 360 45,036 (~145,000 Total as of February 2007)

PS2 software home console sales market share, fourth quarter 2006: 71%

I hope and expect the PS3 to do better during Christmas 2007 in Australia, at least I think the PS3 during christmas 2007 will further slow XBox 360 sales, as the two consoles compete for a similar high definition consumer market.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Feb-2007 at 09:55 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Feb-2007 at 09:21 AM.

..

[edit] At first I thought there were difference regarding the methods the XBox 360 and PS3 turned their power off.

I think this may have been so been so due to the fact that my sister's XBox 360 at first wasn't updated with a new firmware.

The procedures are almost exactly the same, at least with the current user versions of the firmware.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Feb-2007 at 03:12 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 16-Feb-2007 at 03:02 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I think you have to find out if there are open source drivers available for any printer you are interested in.

That's what I'm trying to do! So would a HP deskjet/laserjet/colourjet be the best option?

I know very little about Linux but surely these printer drivers would be compatible with CUPS on YDL on the PS3?

The Linux Foundation - Linux Printer Drivers List

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@MikeB

This Documentation seems to suggest that the Linux Foundation's Drivers work with CUPS, however I'd appreciate your opinion.


The Linux Foundation - CUPS Documentation

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@BigD

I recommend you ask for confirmation here:
http://lists.terrasoftsolutions.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general

At least with regard to the UK the European launch seems to head towards success:

"According to a report by Gamesindustry.biz, retailers are expressing delight over the number of pre-orders they've received prior to the PS3's upcoming European launch."

"Online retailer Play.com is taking six times more pre-orders than it received for PlayStation 3 than Xbox 360 - and 15 times more than the Nintendo Wii.

That's according to head of games Gian Luzio, who told GamesIndustry.biz that PS3 is "the most pre-ordered console yet" for Play. The retailer is offering a GBP 524.99 bundle which includes first-party titles MotorStorm, Resistance: Fall of Man and Genji."

Amazon UK bestseller

Currently the PS3 tops the Amazon UK charts and 6 PS3 game pre-orders are ranked within the top 20.

1) Resistance: Fall Of Man
2) Motorstorm
3) Formula One

First XBox 360 to be found in the sales rankings is at rank 22.

@MikeB

Quote:

On the PS3 you just hold down the button for a couple of seconds and the console shuts down

Really? I read some PS3 owners disliking the fact that there is no distinct off feature, they said you have to hold down the button for a few seconds and then press X and X. Is that incorrect?

You are right, on the Xbox 360 you have to hold down the middle button for a few seconds, then up, up and A so that's four presses. Or you can use the Xbox 360 remote or a universal IR remote to turn it off with one button.

Irrelevant details sure, just the topic grasped my attention on one forum because I got the impression from your earlier postings that PS3 has a single-press Off button. I wonder how so many PS3 owners were mistaken there, they made it sound PS3 worked just like Xbox 360 in this regard (with the exception that PS3 doesn't have a separate off/power button in the remote which Xbox 360 does).

I think they even said the PS3 remote doesn't have a distinct power off feature? Xbox 360 remote does have this (although not discrete, but a toggle one). Well, maybe they were just wrong, but I wonder why that was.

Edit:

Here is the link to that discussion, many people saying the same thing:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=805382

"In an odd decision on Sony's part there isn't a power button on the remote. There's only the "Playstation" button which mirrors the button's functionality on the game controller - you can use it to turn the system on, and to request the shutdown menu by holding it down, but you can't turn the system off without going through the shutdown menu."

"It wouldn't be that hard to hold the button and press down and X if that always worked but it doesn't. It you in the store or playing game or watching a movie the sequences are all different."

Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 01:42 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 01:27 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Feb-2007 at 01:26 PM.

@jtsiren

At least for now you are correct and I was wrong, thanks for pointing this out to me!

Hopefully a firmware update would make such power off functionality optional.

@MikeB

OK. I was just puzzled.

I don't think the process is too complicated on either console, unless considering universal remote / home automation use, which is another story (and I guess the Xbox 360 is a bit better at that).

Personally I have never considered the shutdown menu too complicated on my Xbox 360 when quitting playing even though I have the IR instant off programmed in my remote and I sit so close to the console I could just press the physical button... I still shut it down from the controller. I wouldn't personally see this as a problem with PS3 either.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Isn't it? While the 360 hasn't made the PS2 numbers I don't think it was expected to. It's the growth of marketshare that Microsoft is looking for. Fourth quarter 2006 sales data for Australia. 1) PS2 122,639 added to an install base of millions. 2) Wii (first 3 weeks available) 51,744 3) XBox 360 45,036 (~145,000 Total as of February 2007)

This indirectly answers the question I possed let me see if I can get your thought process -- The Xbox360 is not doing well in Australia because it's the least sold new console. A good point but is 'well' defined by being #1 or by gaining market, gaining customers, selling more consoles while your opposition retains #1 but loses marketshare? I'd definte 'well' as gaining on your opposition and 'great' as overtaking them.

@jtsiren

Quote:

don't think the process is too complicated on either console, unless considering universal remote / home automation use, which is another story (and I guess the Xbox 360 is a bit better at that).

The process is pretty easy on either console. The 360 is a bit better as universal remotes work. Supposedly if you buy the PS2 IR kit you can upgrade your PS3 to use IR then a universal remote will work.

It's funny people fight about these things though. We see various posts that like the PS3 better because it's 1 button press instead of 4? How lazy are people in general? IOkay well that's fixed the 360 shuts itself off automatically if it's not being used after a certain period of time. That'd be 0 buttons.

The next product either company should make is a Blu-Ray jukebox. Then one can buy 100 games put them all in the jukebox and never leave one's couch.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Yeah, I guess that is in line with the speculation that SPUs have to be used in some cases to get comparable performance out of the RSX than what Xbox 360 can do natively.

They have done this in Oblivion but other developers have said it's unnecessary.

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@MikeB

Here's some more info on the black 360 rumors..
Game Crazy has in their POS systems a sku for a black 120GB Xbox 360. Retailing for S479.99 the sku shows a release date of May 1st