@Hammer

Quote:

In graphic processors (massively paralleled stream processors) arena, the fight is basically between two green teams i.e. AMD(ATI) vs NVIDIA. Other GPU providers are caught between a broadside gun battle between ATI (AMD) and NVIDIA.

Erm, I think you're forgetting the other player... you know, the one that's bigger than both those companies combined.

Intel sells more graphics hardware than either AMD or Nvidia and have done so for years. Currently it's only chipset stuff but that's changing, Larabee has the potential to give those guys big problems.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @jtsiren Quote: Yeah, I guess that is in line with the speculation that SPUs have to be used in some cases to get comparable performance out of the RSX than what Xbox 360 can do natively. They have done this in Oblivion but other developers have said it's unnecessary.

MikeB's quote said they did it on Formula One too. And I think the comparisons of the hardware generations on which RSX and the Xbox 360 graphics chip are based explain the difference well.

@BrianK

Quote:

It's funny people fight about these things though. We see various posts that like the PS3 better because it's 1 button press instead of 4?

Actually I think it now stands at PS3 three presses (with the bluetooth remote too) and Xbox 360 four presses. Unless you use the Xbox 360 remote with which you can do it with one press on the Xbox 360. But agreed, completely irrelevant. I always shut my Xbox 360 down with the four presses without thinking anything of it.

Not sure about how many clicks for power off with PS2 IR remote/remote adapter, though.

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Hammer Quote: In graphic processors (massively paralleled stream processors) arena, the fight is basically between two green teams i.e. AMD(ATI) vs NVIDIA. Other GPU providers are caught between a broadside gun battle between ATI (AMD) and NVIDIA. Erm, I think you're forgetting the other player... you know, the one that's bigger than both those companies combined. Intel sells more graphics hardware than either AMD or Nvidia and have done so for years.

Well, Intel's X86 CPUs mostly comes with an Intel chipset. One of the reasons why AMD opened their socket platform to other vendors (e.g. SUN and IBM).

Quote:

Currently it's only chipset stuff but that's changing, Larabee has the potential to give those guys big problems.

In GPU front, Intel is not battling just AMD, it's facing a combined Microsoft and AMD.
Microsoft has contributed to Xenos's JIT driver complier development (basically wrote the unified shader complier driver for ATI). This development support gave an advantage to Radeon driver in Vista when compared to NV’s driver for Vista.
Also, note why R6xx targeting the draft DX10.1.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @jtsiren Quote: Yeah, I guess that is in line with the speculation that SPUs have to be used in some cases to get comparable performance out of the RSX than what Xbox 360 can do natively. They have done this in Oblivion but other developers have said it's unnecessary.

Depends on the titles involved.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@jtsiren

Quote:

MikeB's quote said they did it on Formula One too.

I'm just a little confused as to what is new there.

I mean.. while working on an Amiga title one of our coders were doing the same and this was on 680x0 with AGA. Is the big difference just that one of the SPEs takes care of it instead of doing it on the main CPU?

If so it's IMHO pretty non-new news - except if you look on it as compared to the last generation of single core processors. I'm guessing this was done already on Jaguar and Saturn when it comes to consoles.

@Trezzer

Quote:

I mean.. while working on an Amiga title one of our coders were doing the same and this was on 680x0 with AGA. Is the big difference just that one of the SPEs takes care of it instead of doing it on the main CPU?

Well, yeah, I guess the news is the concurrency and off-loading this from the main CPU. On the Xbox 360 this is apparently done by the "later-gen" GPU, on the PS3 it can be done using one of the SPUs since its GPU doesn't do it - or so I gather.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Well, yeah, I guess the news is the concurrency and off-loading this from the main CPU. On the Xbox 360 this is apparently done by the "later-gen" GPU, on the PS3 it can be done using one of the SPUs since its GPU doesn't do it - or so I gather.

It can be done by the RSX but some devs seem to be using the SPU to do it instead or to beef up it's capabilities.

BTW I meant F1, not Oblivion.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@MikeB

Quote:

I also want to learn and I think its excellent to receive counter argumentation, it makes me dig more and more, this also allows me to get a clearer picture of what common misconceptions and reservations there are amongst people.

And therein may lay the 'issue' some have with your own posting 'style.' Re-read the above, Mike...somehow I doubt you're including yourself in that group of people with 'misconceptions' etc. Simply because you may believe something to be true, no matter how many random internet quotes etc, that doesn't invalidate someone else's opinion, nor technical facts in some cases (the whole resolution 'debates.')

*shrug* Now back to the never ending PS3 thread..

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @MikeB Quote: YDL 5.0 comes with a printer system, if your printer is supported or not would depend on driver availability, you can attach any USB or network printer that has a CUPS driver: They seem to all be HP Inkjets/Laserjets/DesignJets! Is this the only type/make of printer that would work i.e. an Epson inkjet?

CUPS has a pretty large database of drivers- was there a specific printer you were looking for?
http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi
http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/OpenPrinting/Database/Foomatic

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

Re-read the above, Mike...somehow I doubt you're including yourself in that group of people with 'misconceptions' etc. Simply because you may believe something to be true, no matter how many random internet quotes etc, that doesn't invalidate someone else's opinion, nor technical facts in some cases (the whole resolution 'debates.')

Wegster, there are opinions and there are things which are easily validated.But everyone is entitled to an opinion, myself included. If you don't agree that a Blu-Ray drive and Cell processor will push the PS3 way beyond any other games console out there in terms of impressive game complexity that's fine with me.

With regard to misconceptions and mistakes, I have on multiple occasions stated, I do make mistakes and I may have overlooked some details I would like people to correct me on. So IMO this opinion of your's is very strange indeed and is in contradiction with my statements.

With regard to the quotes of course, people here generallly did not argree with me the Cell processor is very important in regard to the PS3's graphics, that's fine with me. But I am entitled to believe they are wrong, There's a long list of endless reasons why and I have just used interesting quotes to provide pointers towards somefood for thought and it looks like opinions are already moving away from rigid standpoints.

There is no doubt in *my mind*, the PS3 can be pushed by competent developers way beyond the XBox 360's capabilities for the long run!

@BrianK

Quote:

- The Xbox360 is not doing well in Australia because it's the least sold new console. A good point but is 'well' defined by being #1 or by gaining market, gaining customers, selling more consoles while your opposition retains #1 but loses marketshare? I'd definte 'well' as gaining on your opposition and 'great' as overtaking them.

At these sales rates it would take the XBox 360 more than 15 years to come even close to the PS2 install base in Australia (but please note the PS2 has significantly outsold the 360 even in 2006). For one I don't think the XBox 360 will have such a long lifecycle, I think even the PS2 and PS3 will not go beyond a 10 year viable lifespan. Secondly what's more important, Microsoft has not been able to build up a large enough install base within its 1 year headstart lead over the PS3 for Australia. Starting from March on, with the actual launch of the PS3 and its by then increasingly impressive high defination games library will receive increasing direct competition from the Playstation 3, so I expect this to effectively further slow XBox 360 sales for the rest of the console's remaining lifecycle.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Feb-2007 at 11:03 AM.

MikeB:

Quote:

Today there will be NPD figures available (hopefully for North America as a whole) and I will compare them to the XBox 360's figures of last year. You are free to involve the Nintendo WIi, PS2, Nintendo DS, PC games, cellphone games, etc.

News reports indicated NPD figures should have become available yesterday, but for some reason there has been a delay, here some rumoured figures floating around, it would be great for the PS3 if they turn out to be correct, I expected January and February 2007 to be slow months due to the software availability gap until the European launch:

1) Wii 430,000-500,000
2) PS3 280.000-300.000
3) X360 220,000-340,000

@MikeB

Quote:

Starting from March on, with the actual launch of the PS3 and its by then increasingly impressive high defination games library will receive increasing direct competition from the Playstation 3, so I expect this to effectively further slow XBox 360 sales for the rest of the console's remaining lifecycle.

So far sales of Xbox 360 has only increased after PS3 was launched in the same territory.

And if you looked at the launch comparison of PS2 vs PS3 in Japan, it doesn't exactly look like the PS3 will do anywhere near as well as the PS2. Less than a third of the same amount of machines sold in the same launch window. It's not pretty.

Japanese analysts are also worried about how the 360 is trouncing the PS3 in the US.

From Weekly Toyo Keizai:

"Sony's PS3, a next generation game console which was created by combining the Sony's best technologies, has now reached a crucial moment. According to Enterbrain, a publisher of Famitsu, 610,000 PS3s have actually been sold at stores since Nov 2006 in Japan. This number is far behind the PS2 sales, which sold nearly 2 million units within 2 months, and it's also less than half of Nintendo Wii's sales number."

"At the beginning of the launch, hardcore gamers in Japan supported the sales but that have been drastically stalled since the beginning of this year. On and after mid-January, PS3's weekly sales have declined to about 30,000 units. This is contrastive to Nintendo Wii which is still in a shortage due to a huge demand from families."

While they suspect that PS3 will move a lot more units in Japan later on in the year due to the release of some big titles, they are far more worried about the USA:

"However, it's hard to think that Sony easily keeps selling PS3 until total number of units reaches to that of 360. Without a doubt, Microsoft is going to start "squashing" PS3. An executive at a certain major software company says "I suppose that Microsoft will start a big price drop within this year and Sony should follow that or they'll lose their market share."

Their gaming division is also hurting right now:

"...their game division, who made 70 billion yen profit last 3Q, falls into 54.2 billion yen loss this 3Q. Their pursuit of power for the PS3 raised the manufacturing cost and that forcing them an enormous back spread. Because they still supposed to be in the red in 4Q 2006, the game division probably loses up to 200 billion yen this fiscal year."

They speculate that a lower price point for the PS3 due to decreased chip sizes, less components and so on will help it but:

"However, if Microsoft massively drops the price of the 360, Sony's plot will fail in no time. Industry analysts of major securities companies are forecasting that Sony's game division keeps making a loss which will be more than 100 billion yen in next fiscal year, supposing that Sony will drop the price of PS3."

Sony has pledged to keep their consolidated profitability at above 5% in 2007. If they continue losing money at this rate, however, they will have a hard time doing so.

@MikeB

Quote:

here some rumoured figures floating around, it would be great for the PS3 if they turn out to be correct

They would at least not be catastrophic. In its third month the PS2 sold 616000 units in the US market. However this was the holiday season, so a fairer comparison would be the month after during which it sold 292500 units.

If PS3 manages 300000 It's at least only 218500 units from the number of sales the PS2 had after three months on the market.

Maybe the US will be able to tide Sony over while they are dead in the water in Japan.

The numbers for 360 and Wii are pretty impressive - especially Wii considering the lack of actual system sellers.

But let's wait and see what the actual numbers are of course :)

Last edited by Trezzer on 17-Feb-2007 at 01:35 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

At these sales rates it would take the XBox 360 more than 15 years to come even close to the PS2 install base in Australia (but please note the PS2 has significantly outsold the 360 even in 2006). For one I don't think the XBox 360 will have such a long lifecycle, I think even the PS2 and PS3 will not go beyond a 10 year viable lifespan. Secondly what's more important, Microsoft has not been able to build up a large enough install base within its 1 year headstart lead over the PS3 for Australia. Starting from March on, with the actual launch of the PS3 and its by then increasingly impressive high defination games library will receive increasing direct competition from the Playstation 3, so I expect this to effectively further slow XBox 360 sales for the rest of the console's remaining lifecycle.

Again it appears you are defining 'well' as beating the PS2. That's not well, that's superb. I know it sounds pedantic but well is another way to say the product is performing at a level of satisfaction.

The 360 is gaining users faster then the Xbox. It enjoyed the largest console launch, now beaten by the Wii. It enjoyed the fastest market penetration for consoles and 2nd for game machines, beaten by the DS. Saying it's not well means it must be below well or poorly. I disagree with that case it's doing poor in the market as it'll be in more homes then the Xbox and the opposition, PS3, will likely be in less homes then the PS2.

I think you're right on lifecycle. I don't think the 360 will have a PS2 length lifecycle because Microsoft is an agressive company. I don't think the PS3 will have a PS2 length lifecycle either. If you were Sony and your console retained #1 worldwide but slipped in market penetration and are now faced with your opponent's next-gen console with superior hardware would you rest on your laurels? Of course not. I think Sony's and a less then fully baked PS3 launch shows they knew they had to do something and quick. If it wasn't for Microsoft in the marketplace the PS3 owners would likely still be waiting for a new console.

Summary it'd be a great performance if the 360 beat the PS2 in sales. It's definitely well that the 360 is gaining ownership faster then the Xbox. It appears the 360 will own a larger market % then the Xbox at the same time we're going to see Sony retain #1 but slip from their market %. No doubt the 360 is doing well, but not to the fantastic levels of beating the PS2.

@MikeB

You still do not get what we do not like about your posting style. It's the fact that when you are wrong or when a technical fact you cannot contest gets presented to you, you totally and fully ignore it and reply to the rest of the post instead, even if what you ignored was the whole point of the post. Your posts are too proud. I've personally apologised for arguing while I was wrong on quite a few occasions. You seem to be totally unable to do this.

_________________

@Trezzer

Quote:

So far sales of Xbox 360 has only increased after PS3 was launched in the same territory

I think it's not strange consoles sell more around Christmas periods.

Reasons for increased XBox 360 sales:
1) Christmas / Holiday season 2006
2) 2nd generation high profile games available, more mature OS, to justify investment.
3) No hardware shortages.

Quote:

Less than a third of the same amount of machines sold in the same launch window. It's not pretty

Well, I don't know what your expections were, but for me it's about on par with my expectations. The PS3 has significantly outperformed the orginal Playastion, which after Christmas 1994, on the 19th of February 2005 sold 470,500 hardware units. But we know that in the end the original Playstation sold well over 100 million units worldwide.

Reasons for current Japanese sales figures:
1) Relatively high price due to high future-proof ambitions.
2) Few software available appealing to Japanese, but we know this is going to change in the future.
3) High definition TVs are still expensive and therefore not yet that widespread.

Quote:

Their gaming division is also hurting right now:

Despite huge investment these last couple of years, Sony is doing well and is making good enough profits, They are the global market leader with regard high definition TVs, Blu-Ray's position in the market has improved significantly. To me the future outlook seem very good indeed!

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Feb-2007 at 02:45 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Despite huge investment these last couple of years, Sony is doing well and is making goof enough profits, They are the global market leader with regard high definition TVs, Blu-Ray's position in the market has improved significantly. To me the future outlook seem very good indeed!

... and?

What exactly is your point? Who cares what Sony's electronics division does?

_________________

@AMiGR

Quote:

AMiGR wrote: @MikeB Quote: Despite huge investment these last couple of years, Sony is doing well and is making goof enough profits, They are the global market leader with regard high definition TVs, Blu-Ray's position in the market has improved significantly. To me the future outlook seem very good indeed! ... Who cares what Sony's electronics division does?

Fans and those with vested interest, including people who have placed their reputation on the line debating on Internet forums.

I doubt most of the consuming public or gaming world do.

Last edited by jtsiren on 17-Feb-2007 at 02:34 PM.