@MikeB

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Probably mine is/are bigger than your's!

LOL, so it finally came down to that

@Jorge

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I was a bit optimistic to get 3 games onto my PSP - on a 1GB stick. Nope. Wasn't. Need a new 2 or 4 or 8GB memory stick ASAP

Yeah, if you're lucky you can have a couple of PS1 games on a 1 gig stick. Ironically you can compress the games better yourself if you have the PSX originals, various tools and the latest hacked PSP firmware.

@Trezzer

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It's funny though, because that's *exactly* what you're doing with the PS3

Not at all, that's what the XBox 360 advocates have been doing.

IMO what makes the PS3 base specs great is the combination of Cell / RSX / bandwidth / fast RAM / Blu-Ray/ HDMI 1.3 / easily upgradeable 60GB harddrive / Wi-Fi / Gigabit Ethernet / Bluetooth / USB 2.0 / media readers / wireless controllers with rechargeable batteries and motion sensing/ etc nicely integrated into one box with its transformator built-in.

How they all interact and enhance eachothers potential is IMO more interesting than looking at each part seperately.

@MikeB

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See what happens if I don't highly text?

Yeah I don't skip it :P

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"The XBox was released 1 year after the PS2, tech-wise it wasn't superior in all regards"

Exactly... which is why you should read my post more thoroughly. You clearly missed the whole point.

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IMO some major reasons why the PS2 crushed the XBox

It didn't really crush the Xbox. It was meant as a first entry - not as a market leader - even if they were market leader in certain aspects. The PS2 had three major advantages :
1. First to sell 10 million
2. More third party support
3. Brand name

This time around it's the other way around with the first, about the same with point number two and point three has had a good boost as well.

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1) Great exclusive games

Yup. Great third party support is important for all consoles.

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2) Backward compatibility

The Xbox didn't really have anything to be backwards compatible too, but it's a fair point. At least PS2 made some games run slightly better and look slightly better, even if it was a hassle to get it to do so.

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3) Feels and looks more like a nice games console and less like a cut down PC in an ugly box.

The Xbox felt like a *very* nice games console. The case was big and bulky, but the PS2 was just as ugly - if not more (PS2 looked like something that had escaped from a 90s IBM server room... brrrrr). The slimline version PS2 was the better looking of the three by far though.

@MikeB

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How they all interact and enhance eachothers potential is IMO more interesting than looking at each part seperately.

I realize very well that's what you've been doing. But you're also partially making the assumption that it's things people care about or that it's resulting in something tangible.

Cell / RSX / bandwidth / fast RAM -> matches up with 360

Blu-Ray -> can be added to 360 if it moves and shakes enough. I know you see it as an asset for games, but so far there have been no PS3 games that really used it to make a tangible difference. So for now: Won't improve your games (though there is potential)

HDMI -> Sure HDMI is fine, but it also causes lots of people to have to go and buy a new set due to HDCP requirements. The 360 does no such thing. Also: Won't improve your games.

Upgradeable harddrive is a good thing (especially "easily"), but the 360 will have upgrades too. Either way: Won't improve your games.

Wifi -> optional. Get it if you need/want it. Won't improve your games.

Gigabit ethernet -> Won't improve your games

Bluetooth -> Will most certainly not improve your games - merely draw power.

USB 2.0 -> same as on 360 - won't improve games but is practical to have.

Media readers -> that's what USB ports are for. Either way: won't improve your games.

wireless controllers with rechargeable batteries -> Same as on 360. Rechargeables are of course optional and you won't have to discard your controller because your batteries eventually die out.

motion sensing-> at the cost of rumble? That is a joke. Either way: both can improve games.

nicely integrated into one box -> the size of a small truck. Having a device you can actually fit in your rack somewhere is a nice thing - and PSUs are easy to get out of the way. Either way neither solution will improve your games.

The one good point is the certainty of a harddrive on a PS3 - but since developers tend to use the 360's harddrive anyway, owners of premium packs can laugh all the way to the bank.

So let's get back to looking at the relevant bits:

CPU, GPU, RAM, Bandwidth, storage, tilting.

That's opposed to:

CPU, GPU, RAM, Bandwidth, next-gen online support, rumble.

I know where I want to be - playing with my friends no matter where they are.

Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Feb-2007 at 07:06 PM.

@Trezzer

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It didn't really crush the Xbox. It was meant as a first entry

Sony made their first entry with the PSX, which sold much better.

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1. First to sell 10 million

Sony entered a market dominated by Sega and Nintendo, both having installed bases of well above 20 million of the best selling products at the time.

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3. Brand name

So Sony > Microsoft?

@MikeB

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Sony made their first entry with the PSX, which sold much better.

But it also was significantly better and cheaper than the competition.

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So Sony > Microsoft?

In the games market, after the success of the original PS? Of course.

Last edited by AMiGR on 18-Feb-2007 at 07:28 PM.

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@Trezzer

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Cell / RSX / bandwidth / fast RAM -> matches up with 360

I would say: 'goes well beyond'.

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but so far there have been no PS3 games that really used it to make a tangible difference

Resistance: Fall of Man with 7.1 Audio.

Soon Motorstorm. after that Lair.

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Won't improve your games.

Allows sharper lossless 48-bit deep color images together with 7.1 f Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

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Gigabit ethernet -> Won't improve your games

Fast LAN multiplayer gaming.

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Bluetooth -> Will most certainly not improve your games - merely draw power.

Wireless headset, microphones and many multiple input device/game controllers.

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USB 2.0 -> same as on 360 - won't improve games but is practical to have

The PS3 has more of them. Webcams, input devices, endless possibilities like Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, but the killer is of course an USB Mug Warmer!

http://www.totalbusiness.org.uk/images/tbam06/USB%20mug%20warmer.jpg

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nicely integrated into one box -> the size of a small truck

Easily fits in my Media Cabinet.

@MikeB

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I would say: 'goes well beyond'.

But that is a guess. Not a fact. Everything so far points towards the machines being equal - not least statements by developers with experience on both platforms.

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Resistance: Fall of Man with 7.1 Audio.

7.1 audio does not make Resistance: Fall of Man an any less ordinary game. The increased storage space most definitely not make it a better looking game. That much is evident.
Motorstorm could probably fit on a CD with a bit of procedural synthesis.

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Allows sharper lossless 48-bit deep color images together with 7.1 f Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Wow. How pointless.

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Fast LAN multiplayer gaming.

Hopefully this is a joke rather than ignorance.

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Wireless headset, microphones and many multiple input device/game controllers.

- with a standard that uses too much power. Yes. And it does not improve your games in any way.

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The PS3 has more of them. Webcams, input devices, endless possibilities like Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, but the killer is of course an USB Mug Warmer!

Uhm, you do know that the 360 has webcam, input devices and endless possibilities like wifi, USB mug warmer ( :P )- or even a bluetooth adapter if there were anything to use it for, right?

And just how many of those improve your games? A grand total of : zero.

@AMiGR

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But it also was significantly better and cheaper than the competition

Well I think it's a matter of taste some may prefer Snes catridges (no worries about scratches, fingerprints) over the Playstation initial CD software library, like Super Mario World over Rayman, Donkey Kong Country over Crash Bandicot, F-Zero better over Ridge Racer, etc, etc.

IMO the Playstation launch titles weren't too impressive, in fact the Snes and Mega Drive/MegaCD/32x significantly outsold the Playstation during the platform's launch window in the US and Japan.

The Playstation costed $299 dollar for the US launch in 1995 (vs the Snes which costed 99 dollar), the Nintendo 64 was launched for $199 in 1996. $299 in 1995 translates to about $400 today, the PS3 offers features beyond just gaming and offers so many extras (internet web browser, high def movies, free online gaming, etc).

@MikeB

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the PS3 offers features beyond just gaming and offers so many extras (internet web browser, high def movies, free online gaming, etc

Yeah, it has an internet browser. Just like the one I'm using now except not quite as good.

High def movies. Yay. I guess. Except I'm not ready to pick a side.

Free online gaming - well, like on PS2 you get what you pay for. And it's free.

@Trezzer

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Motorstorm could probably fit on a CD with a bit of procedural synthesis

Maybe with 'procedural synthesis' your DNA data fits on a punchcard.

OK, ok, I get it! The XBox 360 rocks and should not be improved upon with any additional features the PS3 offers...

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Yeah, it has an internet browser. Just like the one I'm using now except not quite as good

Can be improved, easily used with an ordinary TV set.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Feb-2007 at 09:34 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Feb-2007 at 09:28 PM.

@MikeB

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Maybe with procedural synthesis your DNA data fits on a punchcard.

Have you seen the 96kB game? It looks quite amazing. Do not underestimate what you do not know about, procedural synthesis is an incredibly powerful tool.

Have a look.

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OK, ok, I get the XBox 360 rocks and should not be improved with any additional features the PS3 offers...

You've lost the argument after all, then.

Last edited by AMiGR on 18-Feb-2007 at 09:34 PM.

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@MikeB

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Fast LAN multiplayer gaming.

You really seriously think gigabit ethernet (as opposed to 100 Mb/s) is required for multiplayer gaming? You must be delusional. Anyways, if one uses Wi-fi they loose that gigabit advantage anyway. In a massive setting it would certainly benefit to have gigabit switching etc. but to think gigabit ethernet on the console itself is somehow required for "fast" multiplayer gaming is just silly. It might be good for some movie applications of course (is it even then?), and more is always better, but let's drop the asthetics and at least try to concentrate on the things that affect gaming.

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Allows sharper lossless 48-bit deep color images together with 7.1 f Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

We are a long way from deep color displays, but these are certainly nice details in favour of PS3. It remains to be seen how much of a difference will the audio side make in gaming, but clearly nice details in favour of PS3 no doubt. PS3 wins here.

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Wireless headset, microphones and many multiple input device/game controllers.

Are you serious mentioning these (even if PS3 may have more of some connections)? You do know Xbox 360 has all of these, including the recently released wireless headset and things like the wireless force-feedback racing wheel? Xbox 360 also has USB and optional Wi-fi as you know. It also has its own memory card slots. Many, many devices can be connected. Xbox 360 is also better with that mug warmer since you can turn it off leaving USB power active, unlike PS3 which will let your coffee get cold - well, at least loading controller batteries you can.

(I almost couldn't write that last sentence... but it does fit into this discussion snugly.)

Do you want me to start about replaceable batteries in Xbox 360 wireless controllers and the quick-charge kit? How you can be future-proof with your controllers knowing that you can replace an aging battery (unlike internal battery on PS3 controllers, which you have to open manually or send to Sony)? Or how you can enjoy hours of play by being able to have new batteries standing ready on the quick-charger? While tempting, I don't think these are performance issues and I don't think they are significant (as in deal-maker) benefits for Xbox 360.

And now you are including things like the transformator into the performance debate? Not to mention the tender woman hands. Whew.

You like the PS3 package, we get it! There are many good things about it, I agree (just like I could cherry pick good details about Xbox 360). But some of us are really trying to have a discussion about performance with you. Is it possible for you to do that or is the effort futile?


Now to get back on track, Trezzer did recap it nicely:

Trezzer:

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So let's get back to looking at the relevant bits: CPU, GPU, RAM, Bandwidth, storage, tilting. That's opposed to: CPU, GPU, RAM, Bandwidth, next-gen online support, rumble.

Out of those, I'd pick the first four as the most important - or we can even include number five, storage, from the PS3 side. Tilting, online, rumble I'd leave out of the performance discussion. (Tilting is an interesting discussion in itself, but not something I'd include in the performance debate. Rumble I'd miss on the PS3, but could probably live without - but miss it dearly still. Online software is currently a plus for Xbox 360 for sure, but I don't consider that part of the performance.)


The total performance and impact on gaming of "CPU, GPU, RAM, Bandwidth, storage" Xbox 360 vs. PS3... there is an interesting discussion to be had and something to follow with interest!

@AMiGR

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Have you seen the 96kB game? It looks quite amazing

Of course that's impressive, but that doesn't mean anything with regard to the complex game and graphics experience Motorstorm provides on the PS3 with lossless 7.1 surround audio.

"We do .not. have some kind of magical data compression machine that is able to squeeze hundreds of megabytes of mesh/texture and sound data into 96k. We merely store the individual steps employed by the artists to produce their textures and meshes, in a very compact way. This allows us to get .much. higher data density than is achievable with normal data compression techniques, at some expense in artistic freedom and loading times."

@MikeB

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OK, ok, I get it! The XBox 360 rocks and should not be improved upon with any additional features the PS3 offers...

Don't be silly, nor resort to strawmen.

@MikeB

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Can be improved, easily used with an ordinary TV set.

My point was: I don't mind having an extra browser, but it's not exactly something I would use on a daily basis. Especially considering that 360 and PS3 use far more power than any of my computers.

As for your little piece of sarcasm: Seriously. What do you see in Motorstorm that couldn't fit on a cd? Car models don't take up that much. Textures take up a bit, but it doesn't exactly seem like there are that many in Motorstorm. Geometry info shouldn't take up gigs after gig either.

I seriously don't think Motorstorm contains something that would make it not fit on a cd if you made the effort. On the plus side I guess it was a good thing they could get it to market without having to worry about cleaning up. On the other hand that's what we Amigans tend to call "bloat" and don't like much.

@jtsiren

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Out of those, I'd pick the first four as the most important

I wasn't thinking explicitly about performance for performance's sake. I was looking at which elements that each platform has that in some way affects your gaming experience. That most of those happen to overlap with performance is a coincidence. I first and foremost get machines for their gaming elements. Anything beyond that is, at best, a nice bonus. I think the Wii shows a majority of the market thinks alike.

@MikeB

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Of course that's impressive, but that doesn't mean anything with regard to the complex game and graphics experience Motorstorm provides on the PS3 with lossless 7.1 surround audio.

That's exactly what it does: It means something. If you can squeeze that kind of experience into 96K, imagine what you can do with 96 MB or 960 MB - let alone the 9 GB on a dvd. Once again I point to Roboblitz which is an amazing game considering its tiny size.

Sounds and visuals can to a large extent be created on the fly these days and the tools to make them get better and better all the time. This is what we've been talking about all along: procedural synthesis.

If you have UAE set up, try downloading Loonies' Superdrug and see what the equivalent in audio is.

Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Feb-2007 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 18-Feb-2007 at 10:04 PM.

@MikeB

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How they all interact and enhance eachothers potential is IMO more interesting than looking at each part seperately.

There are two separate issues to discuss in my opinion, the console as a whole and the performace as a whole. Many of us are trying to do the latter, looking at the performance in whole, not just some parts of it. You can make other interpretations as well, such as the best gaming console as a whole, or the best performace for a gaming console - since not everyone is interested in a movie player console...

I think the Xbox 360 as a gaming console, in whole, is actually more mature product than the first Xbox was, thus the difference with PS3 is less here. Things like online play are clearly better than PS3, far more mature on the Xbox 360, but PS3 has its upsides too. It is the performance part that interests me, because that is where either can make a difference and win in my eyes - and that is the part that is not yet clear. That is where the interesting discussion lies, in my opinion.

Battery packs and transformators and the like is not it, both consoles have their pluses and minuses there, but at the end of the day at least I won't make or break a deal because of them.