@AmigaBlitter

I agree! Stop this stupid trial - Down with the lawsuit!

Why can't they just both deliver OS4 to whatever machine each side decides. Hyperion first to SAM and AInc first to some ACK board. Why does it have to stop everything, it's just stupid. They can both be winners instead of both be loosers as it is now

Hyperion could get money from their partner's (A-Cube) sales and AInc from their partner's sales (ACK). Why must one side (or both) loose?

_________________
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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@Deniil715

Yeah!

OS5 is the evidence that they are not interested in OS4. This is my feelings about. When i look at their web page, i see only an OS4 image album (courtesy of Amigaworld.net, moreover). They should change their point of view about this OS, first.

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retired

@thinkchip

Quote:

I think Amiga Inc wants to block the sale of OS4 totally and go to OS5 / AmigaAnywhere.

Many think the same. It's more that a suspect now.

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retired

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @clebin ... There is *no* commercial desktop future for AmigaOS, hence desktop class hardware is of no commercial interest for AmigaOS, ...

If that relly should be the case, I'd use my old HW until it dies and then either use something else (e.g. Win) or drop computing as my hobby entirely, if Win turns out to be not thrilling enough for me - repairing and driving old steam locomotives is a nice hobby as well...

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@AmigaBlitter

I haven't read the thread, but in response to the thread title

"Which one?"
Isn't there about 5 trials going on now?

Rude!

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: ... But there isn't any true market for this, ...

Was there a true market for Amigas back in 1985, when the Amige was presented to the astonished public?

The answer is no.

The market was created by convincing the people that this computing concept had something to offer its competitors couldn't keep up with.

But the huge difference to the current situation is that back then Commodore had something tangible to show - they did not try to convince people by boast announcements and empty promises, they convinced the masses with a superb maschine&OS and created the market this way.

But if you have nothing tangible to come up with - how can you expect to be able to create market for - wait - nothing?

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Please re-ready post #92, especially the last part about who the real customers will be. There is *no* commercial desktop future for AmigaOS, hence desktop class hardware is of no commercial interest for AmigaOS, hence x86 is not relevant.

Are you still interested in the AmigaOS when it's no longer a desktop OS?

Genuine question. If you put an Amiga-like OS onto an embedded device where most of the desktop features aren't suitable, and then put a custom user-interface on top, is there any Amiga-ness left to be excited about? Why not just buy an iPhone and be done with it?

Of course AROS isn't commercial and therefore is exempt from most of this. Which brings me neatly on to....

Quote:

Go ahead and knock yourself out with AROS. Hey, that is both open source and x86, two of "the most important things" according to some of you "x86 advocates". It was here long before both OS4 and MorphOS, it is x86, it is open source, and look what a great success story that one is...

Did you just use AmigaOS and MorphOS as benchmarks for success? I think you did. That's pretty funny!

Open-source projects always take vastly longer to mature than commercial ones. You see that all over the place. It also seems to be true that once projects reach a certain level of maturity, development can become surprisingly rapid. There's been more exciting stuff in AROS in the last 2 years than we saw in probably 5 years before that.

EDIT: ok, I'm getting into an OS 4 versus AROS argument here, and I don't want that. Suffice to say, the model that people still advocating is the model that has seen AmigaOS drop from millions to thousands to hundreds of users. AmigaOS has seen great success in its time, and massive failure. AROS has seen limited success, but little failure. It's all about trajectory - one plummets off a high cliff, and the other continues modestly up a small hill.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 14-Jan-2008 at 03:29 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 14-Jan-2008 at 03:20 PM.

@Dandy

Quote:

The market was created by convincing the people that this computing concept had something to offer its competitors couldn't keep up with.

Well, not quite. The market was created by the capabilities of the original Amigas far exceeding anything else out there, primarily graphics and sound, and the boost given by offloading processing normally done via CPU on to the custom chips. For the first time, people could play something they thought was somewhat worthy of the arcades, compared to pong-like or ASCII art games in comparison for the most part (Ataris being the main exception), could use paint programs to _start_ down the path to photo-realism, and had a good amount of RAM on the systems for the time, useful for everything. Then NewTek jumped on board with the VT, as the ONLY system they could have used at the time, to do the same thing/same results. Nowadays, this is certainly not the case- the 'Amigas' don't even have a PCIE system, let alone the ability to handle HDCP.

Today, things are different, quite a bit. Each computer company doesn't make their own graphics and sound chips, there are companies who dominate those markets instead.
Short of someone like AMD/ATI, Nvidea, or other HUGE company purchasing 'Amiga,' we are never going to see a repeat of that scenario happening. The cost of development is significantly more, and the likelihood of even comping _close_ to ATI/Nvidea are quite slim, let alone an entire system.

It might be packaged on an interesting SoC type system (LimePC), a console, or other commodity hardware manufactured by someone else, but it will not be 'leaps and bounds ahead' compared to the original Amigas. So, that leaves us with...the OS, and software.

For the OSes side, from a desktop standpoint, it's simply lacking...a lot. OS X has displaced MacOS classic, and is in another league versus OS4, AROS, MOS. Likewise, Windows versions past Win95 have eclipsed AmigaOS in features, as well as in hardware it runs on. Linux runs...anywhere. No memory protection (most users don't really like a 'bad app' taking down their system, costing them the loss of work in another app), no SMP for today's dual core and quad core chips, no modern graphics card support (no PCI Express), no USB2 (while USB3 looms on the horizon), no firewire, no browser, no IM client comparable to GAIM/Pidgin or YIM, no video editing app to compete with Final Cut, not even an office word and presentation app to compete with Word and PowerPoint. You'll notice Apple isn't really taking the world by storm with their own office app, either. These have become THE standards of today, and if you can't interoperate, people won't bother.

The list goes on, but as a desktop OS that can even approach near parity on a few small cases, it needs a LOT of work, and the silly hardware 'licensing scheme' just makes it even more unlikely that anyone outside of a small niche of users, will ever care, even IF the apps were developed.

So, that leaves us with - it's a hobby OS, for the foreseeable future. Assuming the court case is ever resolved in such a fashion that OS4 can continue, it's possible to see new users, mostly old Amiga fans or hobbyists, but it won't even be a blip on the radar of the other OSes for quite some time. Which leaves us with special purpose systems, and the hopes that some 'killer app' can be found, whether it's packaging with something like LimePC, on an STB or other device..

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@clebin

Just to elaborate a bit more on what I already said about *a real* commercial market,

Take a look at this picture, and then this picture as well.

Contracted *minimum* amount of units, their end-user price, and their 10% license fee:

Units 2008	Retail	10% License Fee
334,500	$299	$10,001,550
150,000	$399	$5,985,000
90,000	$499	$4,491,000
90,000	$599	$5,391,000
195,000	$1,499	$29,230,500
Total		$55,099,050

*One* venture (the search for *new ones* never stops of course), $55 million dollars, the first year only (with "rapid scaling" expected).

Let's say that only 1 of of those 10% would be exclusively dedicated to OS development (MorphOS), leaving the rest of the 9% to Genesi for whatever other developments. That single percent (and one could assign more than one percent of course) would be $5,5 million dollars to MorphOS in one year, enough to hire 70 full time developers in any developed western economy, *or* to license additional commercial technology for it that would increase its value even more, like the Opera webbrowser, WiFi, Bluetooth, JAVA, FireWire, DVD, BluRay, license GPS software and maps, maybe even interest Adobe to consider porting Flash Player, who knows.

You see the possibilities? You see my point?

This is a whole lot more than Hyperion's shrink wrapped box sales to end-user consumers on the Amiga Community "market" (cough cough, I wonder if they have even sold 100 units yet?), and it goes *way beyond* your scope of (and I quote): "We just want a computer for ourselves- the Amiga community".

The whole discussion about the necessity of scrapped second hand Mac computers suddenly looks hilarious in the above context (like *that* would be any kind of future), as does the pointless discussion about desktop and desktop class x86 hardware.

Now, to clarify, I'm not claiming that these LimePC devices are anything else than prototypes. *Anything* can happen along the road when using untried "challenging" SoC CPU's. No, what I'm talking about is the *business model*.

And then there is just this one thing - why is it LimeOS and not MorphOS in the deal? *That's* an interesting subject for discussion, and I try to lift it from time to time. First the obvious of course - it's not ready enough, at least not according to the MorphOS team. But it also lacks certain things, and that is *not* desktop features like SMP, true memory protection, multi user support, etc. No I am thinking more in the line of what I mentioned above in this post and in other posts in this thread. And this is what I think the developers in the OS teams (and third party developers as well) should focus on; finding a real commercial use for their OS (these hardware devices could be a start) and make sure that their OS's are up for the job in a realistic commercial context, instead of constantly striving for the Desktop market which means you are spending your time chasing the moon (you will never catch it and you will end up with nothing). But of course, it doesn't help a lot when the OS developers themselves (I'm talking about MorphOS developers here) are considering their own OS to be nothing else than a hobby project with no realistic commercial future. That shows a complete lack of vision and ambition IMHO, and the end result can only be accordingly.


Quote:

Are you still interested in the AmigaOS when it's no longer a desktop OS?

OK I'll quote myself from another thread here (since I have written this many times, but no-one seems to read what I write):

"We are talking about two different things. You are talking about your own perspective as an Amiga hobby user, while I am trying to discuss a plausible *commercial future* for the platform."

"Please note that while MorphOS isn't a plausible desktop OS for the broad public, nothing prevents Amiga Nerds from using it as such! And while the Efika isn't a plausible desktop computer, nothing prevents Amiga Nerds from using it as such either (as long as you can live with the limitations of course). MorphOS on Efika is not a bad deal at all for an old Amigan! "

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @Dandy Quote: The market was created by convincing the people that this computing concept had something to offer its competitors couldn't keep up with. Well, not quite. The market was created by the capabilities of the original Amigas far exceeding anything else out there, primarily graphics and sound, and the boost given by offloading processing normally done via CPU on to the custom chips. ... Each computer company doesn't make their own graphics and sound chips, there are companies who dominate those markets instead.

I wasn't aiming at that.
Of course it would be nonsense today to develop new custom chips for the Amiga that catch up to the latest graphic cards or sound cards.

I was more thinking about coming up with completely new features.
It was just recently that I read several articles about Microsofts and Intels market dominance hindering technical progress in the computing sector and that more progress was made back in the eighties of the last century, when there was more competition between more manufacturers.

Perhaps 10 years ago I read an article about holographic computer hardware, where the HW would be set up by the software creating holographic lenses, mirrors, prisms and the like - everything that's needed for an "optical computer".

I don't know how things developed in this sector since - but lets for the sake of the argument assume for a while, that there was a competent and solvent AInc. that suddenly came up with such an HW and an suitable OS supporting it and so openening up unforeseen *new* possibilities in computing. That way they could indeed re-create a market.

But I doubt this can be achieved by trying to catch up with Windows or Vista or Linux - you would have to come up with something really "revolutionary" that is accepted by the masses.

Just an example, you know...

Quote:

wegster wrote: ... For the OSes side, from a desktop standpoint, it's simply lacking...a lot. OS X has displaced MacOS classic, and is in another league versus OS4, AROS, MOS. Likewise, Windows versions past Win95 have eclipsed AmigaOS in features, as well as in hardware it runs on. Linux runs...anywhere.

That's what I meant - this "direction" is already occupied by the main players.
You have to find a different direction that brings completely new and never thought of features that appeal to the masses.

Quote:

wegster wrote: No memory protection (most users don't really like a 'bad app' taking down their system, costing them the loss of work in another app),

Hasn't it been said that in OS4 it would be possible tho "kill" a bad/locked up application - instead of rebooting the system?

Quote:

wegster wrote: no SMP for today's dual core and quad core chips, no modern graphics card support (no PCI Express), no USB2 (while USB3 looms on the horizon), no firewire, no browser,

Well, and if the OS would support it - would that automatically mean we had such HW available today to run the OS on?

I don't see that it would change the todays HW situation...

Quote:

wegster wrote: no IM client comparable to GAIM/Pidgin or YIM,

Errrrmm - excuse my ignorance - but what is that - do we need it at all?
Never heard of it.

Quote:

wegster wrote: no video editing app to compete with Final Cut,

Again:
On what HW would you run such resource-hungry apps?
I'd say we need to have sufficient HW first - then such apps could be developed...

Quote:

wegster wrote: not even an ... presentation app to compete with ... PowerPoint.

Have you ever tried "Hollywood"?
"PageStream" rings a bell?

Quote:

wegster wrote: ...and if you can't interoperate, people won't bother.

Hmmmm - my word processor supports interoperating via .rtf ...

Quote:

wegster wrote: The list goes on, but as a desktop OS that can even approach near parity on a few small cases, it needs a LOT of work,

Of course...
But I see my Amiga system as My Personal Home Computer.
At home I'm not necessarily in the need to have a blown up multi-user environment...

Quote:

wegster wrote: and the silly hardware 'licensing scheme' just makes it even more unlikely that anyone outside of a small niche of users, will ever care, even IF the apps were developed.

That's what's so depressing with todays situation...

Quote:

wegster wrote: So, that leaves us with - it's a hobby OS, for the foreseeable future. Assuming the court case is ever resolved in such a fashion that OS4 can continue, it's possible to see new users, mostly old Amiga fans or hobbyists, but it won't even be a blip on the radar of the other OSes for quite some time. Which leaves us with special purpose systems, and the hopes that some 'killer app' can be found, whether it's packaging with something like LimePC, on an STB or other device..

fully agreed so far...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@AmigaBlitter

How can AI be more excited about OS4 when Hyperion hasn't given some code. For all I know, had the code been delivered, OS4 could be AA2 compatible by now. AI could be touting it too. It might have been shown as CES. Its hard to get hyped about something you believe is yours, you contracted it, paid for it but as of yet don't have it. . . .

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@takemehomegrandma

I understand your point of view. You want to build a market first, I want to build a community first. So you choose the commercial path, and I choose the open-source path.

Quote:

You see the possibilities? You see my point?

I can see possibilities, but what good are possibilities? You have no power to realise them.

You're hoping that someone with money, competence, vision and the same love of the classic Amiga as you will deliver your vision. However well thought out your plan is, it might not be someone else's plan. Amiga Inc have different ideas, and you criticised the ambition of the MorphOS developers in that very post. Who are you relying on to make this come true?

Quote:

it goes *way beyond* your scope of (and I quote): "We just want a computer for ourselves- the Amiga community".

I don't think I have a smaller scope, just different values. I'm not interested in selling x number of units to consumers who don't know or care what's underneath the pretty menus on their music player. I'm not interested in taking over the world.

I want us to build a self-sustaining community around an OS that we have control of. To show some balls and take our destiny into our own hands. I hate the way we have to plead a company to do everything for us like some incapacitated old mutt.

I've been on every bandwagon from A\Box to PowerVixxen over the years. But I've stopped staring up at the stars hoping Nanny Amiga is going to invent a killer app and shower us with sweeties and kisses. You can't strategise for someone else, it's just wasted breath - you can only ask what part you can play and play it.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 15-Jan-2008 at 11:39 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 15-Jan-2008 at 11:34 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 15-Jan-2008 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 15-Jan-2008 at 11:28 PM.

@AmigaBlitter Quote:

OS5 is the evidence that they are not interested in OS4.

You manage to fit quite a lot of misunderstandings into one short sentence!

First, you seem to imply that OS5 was ever going to be anything to do with OS4, which seems impossible since they never had the source code from Hyperion (and more to the point they never suggested it would be related to with OS4).

Second, you seem to be saying that the fact that OS5 is unrelated to OS4 means that they can't also be interested in OS4 as a separate product line, when there is nothing to stop them using OS4 for a completely separate market (OS5 is not even stand-alone yet, it needs a host OS).

That's not to say that I think Amiga Inc *are* genuinely interested in OS4 as a living desktop product - there are lots of reasons for suspecting that they aren't. But OS5 isn't one of them.

Last edited by ChrisH on 15-Jan-2008 at 11:44 PM.

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@clebin

Quote:

Genuine question. If you put an Amiga-like OS onto an embedded device where most of the desktop features aren't suitable, and then put a custom user-interface on top, is there any Amiga-ness left to be excited about? Why not just buy an iPhone and be done with it?

The point of getting MorphOS or Amiga OS into embedded devices is because it would be an extra revenue stream.
A certain embedded device is probably the main reason that Apple still exist today.

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: @AmigaBlitter Quote: OS5 is the evidence that they are not interested in OS4. ... First, you seem to imply that OS5 was ever going to be anything to do with OS4, which seems impossible since they never had the source code from Hyperion (and more to the point they never suggested it would be related to with OS4).

Wrong.
Mc Bill back then repeatedly publically stated that AmigaDE/AA would be supported in OS 4.2 and completely merged with the AmigaOS in version 5.0 .

But I think (generally speaking) he can completely relaxed rely on peoples weak remembering abilities, as you just showed...

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: Second, you seem to be saying that the fact that OS5 is unrelated to OS4 means that they can't also be interested in OS4 as a separate product line, when there is nothing to stop them using OS4 for a completely separate market (OS5 is not even stand-alone yet, it needs a host OS).

It's O.K. for me if you prefer to live on vague hopes - I prefer to take their record of actions (perhaps the term "non-actions" is better suited) and decisions of the past (like to "focus on the mobile/embedded market") into account when it comes to possible future perspectives with them...

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: That's not to say that I think Amiga Inc *are* genuinely interested in OS4 as a living desktop product - there are lots of reasons for suspecting that they aren't. But OS5 isn't one of them.

Ahhhh - I see...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Rob

Quote:

The point of getting MorphOS or Amiga OS into embedded devices is because it would be an extra revenue stream. A certain embedded device is probably the main reason that Apple still exist today.

I understand that and takemehomegrandma's point that an Efika type embedded device could be fine as a hobby machine.

I'd ask you the same questions I asked him. Who are you speaking for? Why should they share your vision? Does our talk change anything? How many years have you being saying the same thing without it happening?

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 16-Jan-2008 at 10:52 AM.

@ChrisH

Quote:

First, you seem to imply that OS5 was ever going to be anything to do with OS4, which seems impossible since they never had the source code from Hyperion (and more to the point they never suggested it would be related to with OS4).

These were the initial (originals) plans.

Quote:

Second, you seem to be saying that the fact that OS5 is unrelated to OS4 means that they can't also be interested in OS4 as a separate product line, when there is nothing to stop them using OS4 for a completely separate market (OS5 is not even stand-alone yet, it needs a host OS).

The simply Ainc statements "Yes, we are interested in OS4" is not sufficient not only for me, but for the entire community, as you can see.

_________________
retired

@Rob

Quote:

The point of getting MorphOS or Amiga OS into embedded devices is because it would be an extra revenue stream.

Just to nitpick on your wordings - No, not some petty cash "extra money", it would be *THE* revenue stream. There is *NO MONEY WHATSOEVER* to make on the Amiga Community market. Heck, there isn't even a market!

Quote:

A certain embedded device is probably the main reason that Apple still exist today.

A *very* good point you make there!

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @Rob ...There is *NO MONEY WHATSOEVER* to make on the Amiga Community market. Heck, there isn't even a market!

Hmmmmmmm - could this depend on how you define "to make money"?

I mean - I actually payed nearly 100¤ for my copy of OS4 classic - so I'd say Hyperion certainly got a certain amount of that.

Of course they won't become rich by the OS4 sales, its even doubtful if they can cover their costs with the sales - but you can't deny that they get real money for each copy of OS4 they sell.

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: Quote: A certain embedded device is probably the main reason that Apple still exist today. A *very* good point you make there!

I don't mind if if there are Amiga powered embedded devices, as long as they exist beside the Amiga desktop OS.

Its just that I personally am not interested in Amiga driven embedded devices up to now - first I have to see one that is really usefull to me and offers me needed features over the competitors at an reasonable price.

Last edited by Dandy on 16-Jan-2008 at 01:25 PM.
Last edited by Dandy on 16-Jan-2008 at 01:24 PM.

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Was there a true market for Amigas back in 1985, when the Amige was presented to the astonished public? The answer is no.

Answer was yes because there was nothing like it for the price. That is not true today.

Dammy

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Dammy