@CodeSmith

Quote:

I dunno, maybe it's possible that several million hardcore fans are probably enough to fund development of an OS, and several hundred are not?

Then you would be amazed on what has happened for about a hundred fans and a hand full of tiny corps can manage to inspire. 1,500 x 100.00 should have been a huge push in OS developement, if done properly.

Quote:

So you agree with me then - Hyperion is completely justifed in locking down OS4 to specific hardware (much like Apple is doing, the difference being that Hyperion's using obscure hardware and Apple is using DRM).

Problem with that statement, it wasn't Hyperion's call because it was in their contract with AI and Eyetech. If anything, you should have said it was AI's justification.

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Dammy

@CodeSmith

Oh my are we at that X86 == piracy crap again ?

OS4 can't be pirated cos it only runs on some very specific (crappy and out of production I may add) mobos that were sold with it bundled. Nothing that couldn't been done by ####izing some x86-board.

The moment OS4 actually runs on something else it will be pirated (Moana doesn't really work and it still awfully popular).

The moment Hyperion (or Ainc ....) releases a non-free OS4-update it will be prirated.

The moment the classic-version was released it was pirated.

Hint: priracy has absolutly nothing to do with the CPU choosen.

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- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@CodeSmith

Quote:

So you agree with me then - Hyperion is completely justifed in locking down OS4 to specific hardware (much like Apple is doing, the difference being that Hyperion's using obscure hardware and Apple is using DRM)

No, I strongly disagree. The whole "let's lock it down to a set of hardware" is extremely short-sighted if it is done as an anti-piracy measure. Yes, it stops people pirating the *current* version, but nothing stops the owners of the blessed hardware from pirating all *subsequent* versions.

It works for Apple because they actually make money from the hardware; I suspect they don't really care if people running Macs pirate the latest OS, because those are the same people who, a year or two down the track, will buy another Mac and pay not just the OEM price for the then-current OS, but also Apple's nice profit margin on the hardware.

Hyperion doesn't get money from hardware sales. So binding their OS to expensive hardware does not help their bottom line. And upgrade-version piracy (purely hypothtical at this point, of course) would hurt them, without promising a long-term payoff.

@umisef

Quote:

No, I strongly disagree. The whole "let's lock it down to a set of hardware" is extremely short-sighted if it is done as an anti-piracy measure. Yes, it stops people pirating the *current* version, but nothing stops the owners of the blessed hardware from pirating all *subsequent* versions.

Yet the truth in the matter, it was designed to lock down *Hyperion* from selling it from any hardware they wanted to. Piracy is a strawman issue.

Dammy

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Dammy

@AliveMOon

Sounds like an awesome plan. There are some really good computer hardware experts hanging around this site. I could throw some ideas at you possibly as well.

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@AliveMOon

I wonder if you could get the interest of Dennis van Weeren (of Minimig) and Thomas Hirsch (of NatAmi) to work on such a community based hardware specification? The smarts are here, you just need some motivated people with the know how to get involved.

On another note, maybe such a hardware specification could be of interest to the Atari user community and some needed collaboration could take root??

Last edited by AmigaMac on 27-Jan-2008 at 06:26 PM.

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@CodeSmith

Quote:

No, what Hyperion's been worried about all this time is selling just a handful of copies of OS4. Of course, that could end up happening anyway...

So, let's say 1500 A1 sales, plus a few hundred classic sales isn't a handful, compared to the money they've spent, money owed, time? I'd certainly call that a handful.

Piracy is a fact of life. In some cases, it's even a GOOD thing. I don't see how it's so difficult to accept, adjust in a sane fashion, and just move on. People are NOT beating down the door for OS4, by any account.

AmiUpdate + sw registration already exists. No updates without registration should be relatively easy enough to accomplish, or even spinning the ISOs without some specific components, or offer 'value added' downloads only available with registration and/or AmiUpdate, and over time you'll manage to turn at least some percentage of 'pirates' into people purchasing the software.

Let's take an example: Say Moana were releases, fully working, across all PPC minis, etc, and OS4 were advertised to some extent properly, for say, $100USD, which is a bit more than most games, more or less than some apps, but isn't a huge amount...Maybe you'll see 1000 purchases over a few months, just from 'curious people.' And yeah, maybe you'll also see 500 pirate copies. So what? There's now significantly more visibility about OS4, and nearly double to number of active users. It's pretty likely, IMO, the people that would even be interested in OS4 at this time fall along the lines of:
- old time Amiga users, curious to see what this 'new OS' is about. They've since moved on, whether to Linux, OSX, or Windows, and paying $1000+ for a 'new Amiga system' simply isn't a likelihood for most of them, especially when they find out it's not 'entirely compatible' with their old Amiga software and games. $100 though, for hardware they own, or could actually use if they decided they didn't like OS4...not a terrible thing.
- old time Amiga users who are also developers. Similar scenario. I don't pay someone $1000 to 'be able to develop for a platform.' That's simply not the way it works nowadays, unless there is truly something compelling about a platform (say, OSX) - they have users, they have well developed APIs, they have a quality modern OS and hardware. This is also why I think AI was insane to charge for the AA SDK as well. I might be willing to pay royalties on anything commercial I might write, but not paying for an SDK either, short of it being amazing, or the only way to do what I need (like QNX or VxWorks/WindRiver). AOS/OS4 (and AA) is none of those.
- computer hobbyist, who may or may not have heard about Amiga, but likes alternative OSes. He may have tried AROS, because it ran on his exiting hardware, may have played with UEA, Haiku, different Linux distros, etc. But, it's highly unlikely he'll pay $1000 or more for a new 'Amiga' which is of little use otherwise (few 'desktop OS hobbyists' really want a $1000 PPC slow Linux system, whether A1 or SAM)

The question is not, if OS4 ran on given hardware, how to _stop_ any piracy from occurring. It will happen, to some extent. It should be a question instead, of offering enough to convert some of the pirates in to paid users, and in growing the platform.

Even Red hat Enterprise Linux versions does similarly - download and use it all you want, but if you want updates integrated into the OS (via up2dat/RPM/yum), you need to be a registered/paid user).

When there are as few users as exist today, I'm sorry, I just don't see 'piracy' as a huge concern, or necessarily even a negative at this point in time, although I won't engage in it myself.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Pleng

March 12, 2007 statements from Jeff Raikes, Microsoft's business group president on piracy...

"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else:"

"We understand that in the long run the fundamental asset is the installed base of people who are using our products,"

"What you hope to do over time is convert them to licensing the software"

"You want to push towards getting legal licensing, but you don't want to push so hard that you lose the asset that's most fundamental in the business,"

Reference

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Kronos, Wegster

Quote:

Oh my are we at that X86 == piracy crap again ?

Not in the slightest. Everything I've said applies equally well to the Moana project. In fact, I'm quite the believer in AMD64 as the way ahead.

Quote:

Hint: priracy has absolutly nothing to do with the CPU choosen.

Correct. The problem is not the CPU, it's piracy itself.

Quote:

In some cases, it's even a GOOD thing

I agree with the concept of piracy as cheap advertising, but like any form of parasitism, piracy can only be effective if it doesn't kill the host. Microsoft and Apple can withstand some pretty stunning levels of piracy because in Microsoft's case they pretty much get the sale anyway and in Apple's case they are mostly a hardware company - ask most Mac owners why they bought a Mac and the hardware will usually be part of their argument (this completely overlooks the fact that Apple could stop selling Macs tomorrow and still turn a very healthy profit). On the other hand, it's generally accepted that what killed Atari's ST/TT lines was piracy. It was so rampant that ST software producers went from Atari-only to multiplatform just to survive, and eventually just dropped the Atari because sales were so low relative to the number of STs in the wild.

You can argue all you want about piracy being a fact of life (so is the common cold), but the bottom line is that software companies are going to try and stop it. Currently we have two methods that seem to be working: tying to the hardware (ie Apple's way) and phoning home (ie Microsoft's way). Both methods can be defeated, in fact both methods have been. However, both methods are also effective: they keep the piracy rate in check so that the company can still stay in business. I've seen HOWTOs on how to defeat WGA and Apple's kernel level copy protection, and both are things that require a certain level of skill to do.

FWIW, I'm in favor of AmigaOS on AMD64, in favor of the company that produces it (Hyperion, Amiga Inc, whoever) trying to protect their income as long as it doesn't interfere with my using it if I've paid for it, and against external USB dongles (ever since I lost my LensLok dongle back in the day...) I would gladly buy OS4, OS5 or whatever for my PC if all I had to do was plug in some doohickey into an internal USB header and forget about the fact that the OS is copy protected.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

You're ignoring the vast numbers of hardcore Apple fans, who will buy the latest and greatest as fast as Apple can build them. Those guys are the "true believers" who would never do anything that could hurt Apple.

You forgetting that Apple also builds nice Wintel/Lintel machines i.e. as a 15.4” Intel SantaRosa + NV GeForce 8600M GT GDDR3 @1.4Ghz based laptop, Apple’s MacBook Pro rivals ASUS G1S (my current laptop)...

If I’m shopping for Intel SantaRosa based laptop, Apple’s laptop line would be on my candidate list, as with Dell XPS M1530, Acer Gemstone 5920G and 'etc'.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Sure, but we're talking about pirating the OS.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

ask most Mac owners why they bought a Mac and the hardware will usually be part of their argument

Uhm, Mac owner here. While I liked the hardware of the MBP, I bought it (or rather, them :) for the OS. I could have saved a little buying a comparably specced brand name laptop to use with Linux instead, but could not justify the hassle for the savings[1]. Then again, I also paid for Leopard when it came out.
If nothing goes wrong with my MBP, I look forward to using it for several more years. I fully expect to pay for software upgrades in that time, because while the hardware is "good enough", software will never be :)

In support of your argument, though --- when my current employer decided we needed a way to demo our product which did not involve lugging around expensive rackmounted equipment, we went with a Mac Mini for the demobox. Not only is it niftily small ('cept for the bloody power brick) and sleek looking, but it is *also* readily available world wide. There are other good-looking mini-PCs, but none which a reseller can order quite as easily...

[1]: And this is me saying that --- I have been using Linux as my main OS for considerably longer than most people think it even existed. Got into a rather silly discussion with a potential employer once, who essentially told me I was lying about my years of Linux experience because Linux hadn't even been around that long.... Turns out not getting the job was a good thing, as they later lost the project..

Last edited by umisef on 28-Jan-2008 at 03:10 AM.

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @CodeSmith Quote: No, what Hyperion's been worried about all this time is selling just a handful of copies of OS4. Of course, that could end up happening anyway... So, let's say 1500 A1 sales, plus a few hundred classic sales isn't a handful, compared to the money they've spent, money owed, time? I'd certainly call that a handful.

Evert says its only 1000 A1 sales, so the numbers are even worse then what you have. I'd also like to point out that back in 2004 I put my money where my mouth was and said that I would buy enough copies to bring sales to 1000 for a mac port after 6 months of it being on sale and was told they werent interested in small markets like that. Honestly dont believe I would have had to buy any (they could have easily sold more the 1000 copies), of course that was during the Mac port is impossible phase of OS 4 development.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @bison Well I Think this things should be banded from any modern motherboard 1 Floppy drive connector 1 PS2 mouse port 1 PS2 keyboard port 1 LPT (parallel) port 1 COM (serial) port ...

Just out of interest:
Would your vision of a modern motherboard come with enough PCI-slots, so I could put in PCI cards with e.g. serial or parallell ports, if I need them?

(I'm currently thinking about setting up an project where I might end up with having to connect to CNC maschines, as well as to use the computer (perferrably an Amiga) to steer a [EDIT: steam operated H0-scale] steam locomotive model.)

Last edited by Dandy on 28-Jan-2008 at 02:17 PM.

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Ciao

Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Use USB:

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3879

If you need to control stuff, make it USB instead of parallell/serial. Also, there are existing serial/parallell converters for USB, so you don't really need PCI for that.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @Dandy Use USB: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3879 If you need to control stuff, make it USB instead of parallell/serial. Also, there are existing serial/parallell converters for USB, so you don't really need PCI for that.

Hummmmm - sorry - but I somehow can't see how the "AT90USBKey" allows me to operate my CNC maschines.

Care to explain?

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @olegil Quote: olegil wrote: @Dandy Use USB: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3879 If you need to control stuff, make it USB instead of parallell/serial. Also, there are existing serial/parallell converters for USB, so you don't really need PCI for that. Hummmmm - sorry - but I somehow can't see how the "AT90USBKey" allows me to operate my CNC maschines. Care to explain?

We use USB convertors on our testsets to integrate new age computers with old age (Rs-232/RS-422) control equipment. I personally having done anything with a 1284 port (Parallel) though convertors do exist for it as well.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@all

I found this site while browsing some favorite sites...

http://www.moschip.com/index.html

...sounds interesting if anything!

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @CodeSmith The moment the classic-version was released it was pirated. Hint: priracy has absolutly nothing to do with the CPU choosen.

Amiga piracy goes all the way back. Anyone remember Quicknibble? It would play "yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me" or something like that the entire time it was copying a disk...

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@Dandy

If a USB-controlled IO module with an autonomous microcontroller doesn't help you controlling it, it's a fairly silly CNC machine

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.