@samface et al.

OK... time to draw that line in the sand...

_______________________________________

Now. No more 'off-topic, he said, you said, you're wrong, I'm right' postings, ok?

If you do, you risk deletion of the post. Is that clear?

Take this argument to Moderation Light, if you must. You will find THAT thread here.

Kind regards, Yo

_________________
¤¤ Official Hyperion Zealot ¤¤

(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

This post, and ones likely to follow... in the same vein, have been moved to the Moderation Lite thread

found HERE.

Last edited by Yo on 07-Feb-2008 at 03:06 PM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@dimitros

Quote:

dimitros wrote: @samface Quote: You're right. But then, there is nothing preventing you from adding CPU independance to a Hypervisor, now is it? So, saying that something is "Hypervisor-like" is not neccessarily the same thing as saying that it does not have CPU independance, right? In any case, I never meant to say that AA1/AA2 was a Hypervisor by definition, just more comparable to a Hypervisor than, let's say, Java. It is the other way around. AA1 is more comparable to Java because they both sit on top of the OS layer, both provide API + CPU independence and both are meant as application runtimes. Hypervisor on the other hand, and to the best of my knowledge, is exactly the opposite because it is a layer below the OS, it does not provide CPU independence and it is not meant to run applications rather operating systems.

I respectfully disagree. There are many hypervisors and/or hardware emulator types of virtual machines that provides virtual CPU's and/or CPU emulation. Wether this is included or not has no bearing to the question of wether it is more comparable to a hypervisor or not. For reference, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_machines

Furthermore, the idea from the start always was to build an OS ontop of the virtual environment provided by the AA, not unlike they way you describe hyperivosr's as meant for running operatings systems. In fact, it's Amiga Inc.'s own set of APIs that sets the AA apart from the original Intent from Tao.

Another technical aspect is that a Java VM is included with the AA, running ontop of the virtual environment of the AA. I would like to see you try running AA ontop of a Java VM. This fact in itself says alot about the differences in these technologies.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: Anything else is just fog. Until I can see evidence of OS5, or OS4 running on mac mini then for me it's all food for chatting and nothin more. Can I see it and touch it? No? Then it doesn't exist.

Are you implying that (insert sexy supermodel here) does not exist!?!?!

_________________
Founder of NWAG - North West Amiga Group

Night Operations

A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
A600

If it can be of any help, yes AA2 exists.

The FAQ describes AA2 as the same product I have on hands right now.

If you want to 'test' it I advise you to fill a developer interest form , sign an SDA, then you'll get the product (but you won't be authorized to talk about it again since you signed an SDA).


/me under sda of course;)

@DC_Edge

Can't you just whisper or PM so McBill can't read it?
I'm sure many are dying to know what it is like

_________________
Founder of NWAG - North West Amiga Group

Night Operations

A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
A600

@DC_Edge

Quote:

If you want to 'test' it I advise you to fill a developer interest form , sign an SDA, then you'll get the product (but you won't be authorized to talk about it again since you signed an SDA).

And herein lies the problem.

There is an order of magnitude more chatter in this forum alone than the information that Amiga has provided for general consumption. If they invested the energy into developing the solution it doesn't seem to be asking too much for them to encourage people to actually consider it. Instead, we get conjecture about what it is, should be or could be.

@DC_Edge

Quote:

If it can be of any help, yes AA2 exists. The FAQ describes AA2 as the same product I have on hands right now. If you want to 'test' it I advise you to fill a developer interest form , sign an SDA, then you'll get the product (but you won't be authorized to talk about it again since you signed an SDA).

I repeat my prior post:
Quote:

The Developer Projects Forum here on AW is always available to you and Bill should you ever choose to make use of it.It is "strictly" moderated, which means there would be a stress on content vs the petty arguments I clearly see in this thread.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21443&forum=42&10

Just ask Bill for authority to act as spokesman, as per the forums rules/regs.
It's not brain surgery. Heh!
If not, remind Bill of the forum, ok?

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@Earthling

I'm absolutely shure Bill read AW.net from times to times...and it's not my job to tell him if/what/when he sohuld post here.

Thus in past there was so many things announced and then aborted that, in my opinion, he prefers to post only when something is released.

@Yo

Eeeuhm. Ok, not to disrespect your authority as a moderator or anything but, I don't think you made my post more "on-topic" to the thread my post was moved. Thank you though for letting personal attacks on me with links to websites that make fun of me with fictional quotes stay. I don't know what I was thinking when I responded to that with just 'off-topic, he said, you said' nonsense.

Feel free to delete this post, hopefully after having read it atleast once.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@DC_Edge

Quote:

DC_Edge wrote: If it can be of any help, yes AA2 exists. The FAQ describes AA2 as the same product I have on hands right now. If you want to 'test' it I advise you to fill a developer interest form , sign an SDA, then you'll get the product (but you won't be authorized to talk about it again since you signed an SDA). /me under sda of course;)

Thanks for this DC_Edge. Without getting into any details that mess with your NDA what are your overall impressions? Will you make a product for it after seeing it? I'm not a programmer so me downloading it would not help me much at all BTW.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@samface

Look. I just want the silly bickering to stop, that's all, ok?

NO ONE looks mature, clever or on-form if you are throwing mud and insults around. Links to 'humour sites', which are ancient anyway, I can't see how I can be held responsible for, honestly. If you have a problem with it, let me know in a PM and I will gladly remove all links.

I KNOW you have tons of knowledge and experience to share, but can you PLEASE just try to NOT let others troll and bait you, please? If they try, I WILL be on top of them, I promise.

Reasoned arguments are something else. People discussing their points of view in a calm, rational manner is what I would love to have happen. I am sure that can't be too much trouble. It just requires the liberal use of thought, consideration and refection before you hit the enter key.

If you feel an injustice against you has occurred, hit the AR button, and follow up, if you think it describes the problem more thoroughly, with a PM to one of us. We cannot mind read and what offends one person, may humour someone else. Every AR is reviewed by staff and appropriate action is then followed.

Going forward, can we simply either keep to the topic on this thread, take it to Moderation Lite... or if you have further things to say to a member, take it to PMs?

Thank you.

Last edited by Yo on 07-Feb-2008 at 10:10 PM.

_________________
¤¤ Official Hyperion Zealot ¤¤

(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

@thread
Slight additon to Yo's post.

Contrary to seeming popular belief, we do not always read every single post, let alone in a long thread. I'd gone looking for this link Samface mentioned without spotting it in the first place.

PMs should be used to other users in the event you BOTH feel like it, and are unable to follow the TOS in your postings, or regarding any moderation against _yourself_ that you may take issue with. ARs should be used on posts you have issues with, and want brought to Staff's attention. A PM to Staff about an AR already filed is fine, assuming it needs explanation.

Additional flames in this thread belong in the Mod Lite thread or in private PMs between the individuals involved, or will be dealt with as TOS violations, period.

Last edited by wegster on 07-Feb-2008 at 10:23 PM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote: @DC_Edge Quote: If you want to 'test' it I advise you to fill a developer interest form , sign an SDA, then you'll get the product (but you won't be authorized to talk about it again since you signed an SDA). And herein lies the problem. There is an order of magnitude more chatter in this forum alone than the information that Amiga has provided for general consumption. If they invested the energy into developing the solution it doesn't seem to be asking too much for them to encourage people to actually consider it. Instead, we get conjecture about what it is, should be or could be.

Exactly. Amiga Inc has a history of promising much more than they deliver, so it baffles me that when they *do* deliver something, they take their best possible evangelists (the early adopters) and then gag them. From where I'm sitting, there's no way to tell the difference between "DC_Edge is a frustrated early adopter who's not allowed to talk about the cool thing he's using" and "DC_Edge is just yanking all our chains, Amiga Inc has produced nothing as usual". What kind of marketing department comes up with this "campaign"? Come to think about it, this is the sort of thing a set of lawyers would probably come up with. Hmmm...

@samface

Quote:

I respectfully disagree. There are many hypervisors and/or hardware emulator types of virtual machines that provides virtual CPU's and/or CPU emulation

Your reference shows a long list of virtual machines. In its heading, it claims that they are all Hypervisor VMs, which is a bit of an audacious claim, but never mind...

Regardless, the list has a very telling column: "Guest CPU". Not a single VM listed has anything in there other than a real-world existing-in-silicon CPU. More importantly, except for PearPC, GXemul, DOSBox and Bochs (all of which are UAE-like whole system emulators), none of them provide any CPU instruction set abstraction.

So, if you say "like a Hypervisor" and point at that page in the context of "Amiga Anywhere", you are really saying "like UAE or PearPC, only without the benefit of running an established OS or pre-existing software". Which is not what people commonly associate with the term Hypervisor, and it's most certainly not "The Next Big Thing".

Amiga Anywhere is supposed to run one's applications "Anywhere". None of the VMs in your reference run applications; They all run operating systems (hence the "Guest OS" column). Which is what everyone is excited about these days, being able to run multiple OSs at the same time on the same machine; But it's not "middleware solution" which provides "a thin layer abstraction over a given host platfrom graphics, sound and input APIs".


In fact, if one looks at the FAQ, there is no more mention of compile-once-run-anywhere. I guess Tao going bust was the end of that. The AA2 described in the FAQ is, essentially, SDL.

@umisef

Quote:

In fact, if one looks at the FAQ, there is no more mention of compile-once-run-anywhere. I guess Tao going bust was the end of that. The AA2 described in the FAQ is, essentially, SDL.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I asked my question about AA2 being a crosscompiler and libs. If it's not, the only possible way that you could have code that runs "anywhere" (the second 'A' still stands for 'Anywhere', I think?) and still not have a virtual CPU, would be for the compiler to produce some sort of abstract machine code which gets compiled to native code on the actual machine (perhaps during setup). .Net has that, there's a program that comes with the .net framework called ngen, which will take an MSIL exe or dll and compile it into x86 or amd64 machine code. I'm sure Java has something similar. Of course, if one does that then you lose some cool JIT tricks like tweaking the generated code to fit runtime patterns (branch taken vs not taken, that sort of thing).

Wake us up when AA2 gets some content or even 100 users. The shroud of mystery is a strange business model to use but whatever.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@umisef

Quote:

Amiga Anywhere is supposed to run one's applications "Anywhere". None of the VMs in your reference run applications; They all run operating systems (hence the "Guest OS" column).

This nails down where we are misunderstanding each other pretty well. You see, it's one thing to talk about the technology and it's potential, another to talk about the product's marketing strategy. Amiga Inc.'s idea never was to simply make another Java-like solution and it's always been a part of their plan to make a full blown OS capable of running hosted as well as stand-alone, also known as AmigaOS5. Think what you like about their abilities to actually deliver, it puts the technology in a context which atleast gives it the ambition of a hypervisor and therefore more comparable as such.

Besides, it wouldn't be the first nor only hypervisor to not provide a guest OS. VMware will usually not provide you with an OS, you'll have to get it and install it yourself. Atleast AA provides you with certain APIs that allows you to run applications out of the box. And just because there is no OS compatible with it yet, that doesn't make it more Java-like nor less capable as a hypervisor.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

Wake us up when AA2 gets some content or even 100 users. The shroud of mystery is a strange business model to use but whatever.

DiscreetFX... are you sleeping?











Just checking!

Last edited by pixie on 08-Feb-2008 at 12:57 AM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Todays Aladdin 4D Blog entry is about Amiga Anywhere 2.

http://aladdin4d.blogspot.com/

Don't forget to vote for or against AA2 in the poll.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 01:34 AM.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.