Continuation of the discussion found here.

Please continue!

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¤¤ Official Hyperion Zealot ¤¤

(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

@Yo

Quote:

Continuation of the discussion found here

nice! first topic of mine to go dual thread

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Yo

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Yo wrote: Continuation of the discussion found here. Please continue!

Continuing might be a lot easier, if you'd copy the last 1-4 postings from the old thread over here...

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Ciao

Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Continuing might be a lot easier, if you'd copy the last 1-4 postings from the old thread over here...

How about some new material?

2 greenhouse gases on the rise worry scientists new info

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The gases are methane and nitrogen trifluoride. Methane comes from landfills, natural gas, coal mining, animal waste, and decaying plants.

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By contrast, nitrogen trifluoride has been considered such a small problem that it's generally been ignored. The gas is used as a cleaning agent during the manufacture of liquid crystal display television and computer monitors and for thin-film solar panels.

now we are talking "man made" anyone wish to go back to CRT's? Maybe a new chemical should be looked at quick?

Quote:

Nitrogen trifluoride levels in the air — measured in parts per trillion — have quadrupled in the last decade and increased 30-fold since 1978, according to Weiss, who is also a co-author of the methane paper

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But nitrogen trifluoride is one of the more potent gases, thousands of times stronger at trapping heat than carbon dioxide. Methane is more than 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide on a per molecule basis. Carbon dioxide remains the most important gas because of its huge levels and rapid growth.

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

But surely man cannot make any sort of impact to or fro on the atmosphere?

Nah, I agree. There's a lot of things we've started to use lately that is not good. Didn't know about NF3, but one of the properties of it is that using it _typically_ breaks it down, so it shouldn't really be _that_ hard to make sure it's not released into the atmosphere...

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

What the public doesn't get about Global Warming

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: Continuing might be a lot easier, if you'd copy the last 1-4 postings from the old thread over here... How about some new material?

Yeah - why not!

Quote:

Interesting wrote: 2 greenhouse gases on the rise worry scientists new info Quote: The gases are methane and nitrogen trifluoride. Methane comes from landfills, natural gas, coal mining, animal waste, and decaying plants.

The methane issue is an old one...

Quote:

Interesting wrote: Quote: By contrast, nitrogen trifluoride has been considered such a small problem that it's generally been ignored. The gas is used as a cleaning agent during the manufacture of liquid crystal display television and computer monitors and for thin-film solar panels. now we are talking "man made" anyone wish to go back to CRT's?

Didn't they have the problem of a very toxic colour dot coating on the inside of the screen?

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Interesting wrote: Maybe a new chemical should be looked at quick?

Errrrmmmmmm - IMO a way to produce everything emission-free, as far as possible, should rather be looked after...

Quote:

Interesting wrote: ... Quote: But nitrogen trifluoride is one of the more potent gases, thousands of times stronger at trapping heat than carbon dioxide. Methane is more than 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide on a per molecule basis. Carbon dioxide remains the most important gas because of its huge levels and rapid growth.

Hum - at the beginning of the article you cited is the talk of "carbon dioxide". In the rest of the article mostly the term "carbon" is used.

Assuming that in both cases they're referring to "carbon dioxide" - has anybody ever thought about all the carbon dioxide that is released worldwide every day each time a potation bowl containing e.g. Coke or Sprite or other CO2 containing drinks, is opened?

Does anyone have any figures telling how many tons of carbon dioxide are released this way day by day - year by year?

Would be interesting to see how much CO2 containig drinks contribute to the carbon dioxide problem in relation to e.g. automotive traffic...


EDIT:
Errrmmm - I just noticed that I mixed up the link you gave with the links BrianK provided. That's the disadvantage if I read all replies first before answering...

Last edited by Dandy on 28-Oct-2008 at 01:25 PM.
Last edited by Dandy on 28-Oct-2008 at 01:18 PM.

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@olegil

Quote:

Didn't know about NF3, but one of the properties of it is that using it _typically_ breaks it down, so it shouldn't really be _that_ hard to make sure it's not released into the atmosphere...

Sure Japan will do something about this in their country. China that makes alot of lcds, well they just don't care!

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Dandy

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Hum - at the beginning of the article you cited is the talk of "carbon dioxide".

well I'm not really worried about Co2, its a natural substance and we have natural ways to balance that off. Toxic man made chemicals are my concern.

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: Hum - at the beginning of the article you cited is the talk of "carbon dioxide". well I'm not really worried about Co2, its a natural substance and we have natural ways to balance that off. Toxic man made chemicals are my concern.

Errrrmmmm - not sure what you mean with "we have natural ways to balance that off".

If nature really had found a way to balance this off we would not have this frightning significant increase of the atmospheric amount of co2.

Quote:

Wikipedia wrote: Due to human activities such as the combustion of fossil fuels and deforestation, and the increased release of CO2 from the oceans due to the increase in the Earth's temperature, the concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide has increased by about 35% since the beginning of the age of industrialization.

If we - mankind - have to take action to get the co2 balanced off I would not accept this as a "natural way", as human intervention is required.

And I'm sure you agree that if human intervention is required this won't work without costs.

And - with respect to the current global financial crisis - wouldn't it be better not to artificially release co2 into the atmosphere, than to spend huge sums of money to "balance it out" later, when it already damaged the environment (which in turn adds new costs on top)?

This money could be used better, wouldn't you agree?

Edit:
If you want to spend money, you have got to earn it first (although the credit practice of the past seems to suggest otherwise). To earn money you have to spent some of your lifetime.
Wasting money equals to wasting lifetime.
Do you like to waste your life?

Last edited by Dandy on 29-Oct-2008 at 08:59 AM.

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

ok how about this from Slashdot today.....

Technology: Dean Kamen Combines Stirling Engine With Electric Car 2008-11-09 17:16

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"Dean Kamen, (inventor of the Segway) has combined a Stirling engine with a battery-powered electric vehicle based on the Ford Think to provide a fully decoupled electric hybrid car which can run on any fuel which can provide enough heat to run the Stirling generator. Think are also producing a purely battery 'Think City' car which is capable of 62mph and with a range of 126miles."

Kamen link

Ford think link

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

DAMN 8(.. this is the thing Ive been talking Very Loudly about for the last couple years, but I dont have the money, resources, references etc to get people intrested..

Big difference in my idea though.. I was giivng it Open Source, so that any Small manufacturer can make just the generator, then retrofit it into Any existing vehicle. .why wait 5 years for a whole new platform, when anything made in teh last 30 years, already has the resources built in, and cheaply available.

By the way, how is the segway guy expecting to make 500 million new cars in under a decade?.. Is he honestly expecting big car makers to give him money jsut for the piece of paper he has saying its his idea?

Any thermal source.. I had a patent pending solar thremal panel in the 90s, that was the bolt on suplemental power unit for mobile, static, remote, local, concentrated and distributed power generatiion.

If what articles Ive seen are correct, it could generate steam, when buried under 4 km of ice.

And thats why I wouldve liked to have got a prototype built, for testing, but Im still waiting for a lottery win. It was to be printed on high speed presses similar at least to CD lines, if not actual continous sheet.

A structural formable thermal panel that works on low temperatures, Infrared and microwave emmisions, and can be used for wide band arrays.

Hell, even my vehicle design is on my website since 1997, and the actual design is a lot older than that.

I hate not having the cash to back me up. Even if I cant actually have any 8(

RodTerl

We dont have an ecological, technologica, or resource crisis. the crisis we have is people not wanting to make insane amoutns of money from new things, instead wishing to make only stupid amounts of money from what they can actually see, a long time ago.

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The older and more respected a scientist is, the longer it takes to prove him wrong.

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy ok how about this from Slashdot today..... Technology: Dean Kamen Combines Stirling Engine With Electric Car 2008-11-09 17:16 Quote: "Dean Kamen, (inventor of the Segway) has combined a Stirling engine with a battery-powered electric vehicle based on the Ford Think to provide a fully decoupled electric hybrid car which can run on any fuel which can provide enough heat to run the Stirling generator. Think are also producing a purely battery 'Think City' car which is capable of 62mph and with a range of 126miles."

Yeah - nice, but not new.
As long as you use regenerative fuels to run the stirling engine/to charge the battery...

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

As long as you use regenerative fuels to run the stirling engine/to charge the battery...

ok, how about this news? South Korean team ups lithium battery life by 8X

Link to info

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: As long as you use regenerative fuels to run the stirling engine/to charge the battery... ok, how about this news? South Korean team ups lithium battery life by 8X Link to info

Like your nick - interesting.
Bit you still have to use regenerative methods to charge the battery, if you really wanna be green with that...

I get the impression that this is mostly forgotten and people seem to think its sufficient to drive an electrically driven vehicle to be green.

Even if E-cars are advertised in the media there is no talk that you still need regenerative methods to charge the battery - or you pollute the environment as before.

No - stop!
It isn't you who pollutes the environment - it's that evil power station, that still burns tons of coal (and releases the exhaust fumes untreated to the atmosphere) to generate the electricity you need to charge the battery of your car...

And one problem continues to exist with this mothod to power cars:
You have to generate electricity; most likely isn't a re-generative process and generates heat as a waste product.
Driving the car equally generates heat as a waste product.

This way we still would have the problem of "lighting a second sun".

The only proper way do to circumvent this problem is to hinder exactly that amount of heat from the sun we get as waste product from e.g. driving cars to reach earth.
That's the only sustainable method suited to revert the process of GW I know of...

It lends itself to install a sort of "sunshade" in an appropriate orbit for that purpose.
If the "sun-side" of this sunshade is covered with solar cells, you could utilize it as power station (keep in mind sun shines 24h per day in an appropriate orbit with no clouds for free - aside from the installation costs).

And if it's casting its shadow on deserts, a low pressure area will be generated there. As we all know from weather forecasts, low pressure areas tend to bring rain.

This way de-forestation could be countered and deserts could be re-forested, which would significantly increase the quality of our air globally.

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

OTOH, CO2 isn't doing it. We are facing 20 to 30 years of Global Cooling, get over the CO2 hype already.

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Dammy

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: OTOH, CO2 isn't doing it. We are facing 20 to 30 years of Global Cooling, get over the CO2 hype already.

Well, it's not new for me that water vapor is the main greenhouse gas.
It's equally common knowledge that we're just starting to understand the complexity of the climate systems.

The article you cited clearly says that manmade pollution definitely HAS an impact on the climate - its just not clear if and how the climate system reacts to ths additional pollution.

Does it lead to a global warming or global cooling?

This question can't be answered precisely at the present time.

What we know is that the ice caps at the poles are melting and all the glaciers as well.
And that as a consequence sea levels are rising.

We also know, that during the last decades the frequency of weather extremes increased - indicating that the amount of energy within the atmosphere is growing.

We just don't know the precise reasons for all of that - if they are natural or manmade.

But shouldn't we rethink and change our behaviour immediately, when we have the faintest suspect that we could be damaging our environment, our natural habitat, our planet with our behaviour?

Finally it's the only one we have and it's value for mankind is not quantifiable in any currency - we should be aware that if we destroy our biosphere, then that's it for mankind.

There is no second biosphere far and wide - no second chance - no "reset-button"!
Sanity should tell us that it's in any case better NOT to risk our biosphere.

I, for one think it's better for mankind to strive with all its strength for a sustainable way of life - no matter, if the current climate changes are manmade or not.

The risk to loose it all if we don't and stay dormant is far too high , if you ask me.

Now I ask you:
What does mankind have to loose, if it strives for a mostly sustainable way of life, in order not to put the future of ths planet on risk?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@damocles

Quote:

OTOH, CO2 isn't doing it. We are facing 20 to 30 years of Global Cooling, get over the CO2 hype already.

better tell those in the Imperial Senate

Reid: Reconsider plans for coal-burning plants Link to full story

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on Tuesday urged Gov. Jim Gibbons to reconsider plans for three coal-fired power plants in the wake of a recent federal regulatory decision.

In a letter to the Republican governor, Reid, D-Nev., cited a Nov. 13 decision that directs the Environmental Protection Agency to explain why it didn't consider requiring reduction of carbon dioxide from a coal-fired power project in Utah. In addition, the Environmental Appeals Board recommended EPA adopt a national policy for dealing with carbon dioxide, which scientists say leads to global warming.

Because of the board's ruling, the Nevada Division of Environmental Protection "cannot move forward with any legal certainty" in approving air permits for three coal power projects in Nevada, Reid said. Approving final air permits, Reid said, would put "billions of dollars of Nevadans' investments (in coal projects) in great jeopardy."

Mendy Elliott, deputy chief of staff for the governor, said she and other officials in the governor's office have been meeting with legislators and haven't seen Reid's letter.

Sanjay Narayan, senior staff attorney for the Sierra Club, has said the board ruling makes it risky for the Nevada division to grant final air permits until the EPA adopts a policy on carbon dioxide emissions.

The developers of the three coal-fired power projects in Nevada have received draft permits, but the state agency has not made a decision on a final air permit for any of them. They are the Ely Energy Center that NV Energy proposes to build near Ely, the White Pine Energy Station that LS Power proposes to construct in the same area and the Toquop Energy Project that Sithe Global Power wants to build outside of Mesquite.

The EPA case stems from plans by the Deseret Electric Cooperative to expand a power plant near Bonanza, Utah.

While that case was pending, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Massachusetts vs. EPA that carbon dioxide is an air pollutant under the Clean Air Act of 1977.

The EPA approved a final air permit for the Bonanza coal project, but the Sierra Club appealed to the Environmental Appeals Board.

The environmental board directed the EPA to reopen the Bonanza case and reconsider carbon dioxide restrictions. If EPA determined no carbon dioxide reduction was needed at the Utah plant, EPA should explain why, the board said.

The decision "makes it overwhelmingly clear that the Nevada Division of Environmental Protection cannot move forward with legal certainty in granting final air quality to any of the proposed coal-fired power plants currently being considered in Nevada unless such permits consider the extremely high greenhouse gas emissions from those plants," Reid said in the letter.

Reid asked Gibbons to "join with me in putting Nevada quickly on a cleaner (path) toward a renewable energy and efficiency-driven economy and safer future."

your thoughts?

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: OTOH, CO2 isn't doing it. We are facing 20 to 30 years of Global Cooling, get over the CO2 hype already.

Christy and Spencer from the Univ of Alabama we severly wrong on the satellite data and what it shows. Their subsequent actions helped to create one of the largest anti-global warming myths. Instead of me laying out their problems again I found a source that is a quick read. Those interested can follow the LINK

I used to think that Spencer and Christy were good for the GW analysis as they would raise unanswered questions. Now I'm not so sure. What these 2 do is find questions within GW that aren't answered and claim they prove anti-gw. Of course they don't, they simply are unanswered questions that may show gw or anti-gw once we analyze the evidence and their fit within the system.

@Yo

Quote:

Continuation of the discussion found here.

Yo nice xmas kitty .

Last edited by Interesting on 20-Dec-2008 at 06:51 PM.

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker