@BrianK

Quote:

Of course there is both theoretical and observational evidence.

Where? Nothing remotely approaching in the IPCC report: no physics basis, suspicion of data manipulation, no causation between observations, pseudo-science based on models, no prediction realized either. Summary: no evidence at all.

Quote:

Interesting. All along you give that determining consensus has nothing to do with science. We agree that polls have nothing to do with scientific proof. Then when we ascribe your view (and our agreed upon view) to your evidence you again wet the other side of your toast and claim a poll really is science. So 7% is GW, 6% is anti-GW and 48% are neither? What are the missing 39%? Seems to me that 3 categories covers the question yes,no, not either yes or no.

Perhaps reread? Anyway the whole exercise was to demonstrate there can be no 'consensus' with so much categories. Thank for participating.

Quote:

I disagree that 1 strong experiment will break the paradigm. It's poor science to rely on 1 experiment

But 1 paper can break paradigm and thus defeats the view of 'consensus'. Refer to Einstein theories.

Quote:

Do you not agree that the current accepted paradigm for gravity is Einsteing's equations or that evolution is the current accepted paradigm of how life changes on earth?

Both theories are the more convincing at this time. That does not imply that someone has to claim 'consensus' in place of scientists for whatever reasons.

Quote:

My read of finding responses yourself means that only true way would be to repeat the experiment yourself. If one wants to know the state of the science there's not enough hours in one's life to repeat every single experiment ever.

I was not referring to Science as it seems rare to reproduce experiments at home...

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

@TMTisFree

Quote:

Where? Nothing remotely approaching in the IPCC report: no physics basis, suspicion of data manipulation, no causation between observations, pseudo-science based on models, no prediction realized either. Summary: no evidence at all

Okay so you dislike the IPCC. If you read their work they cite the articles. So even if they draw a wrong overriding conclusion in your view there is evidence and observations of climate science. You like Schulte's article. Why not start with the 7% he attributes directly to GW?

Quote:

But 1 paper can break paradigm and thus defeats the view of 'consensus'. Refer to Einstein theories.

One paper might be the inital point. It's through subsequent experiments that show one paradigm more accurate than another that increases the acceptance of one paradigm over another.

Quote:

Both theories are the more convincing at this time.

You come to that view because more scientists have done more science to establish that today we accept that paradigm over it's competitors. As you say no one has to claim consensus. But, none-the-less science is a pursuit by humans and consensus is naturally established as a scientific paradigm has more accepted observed evidence than it's competitors. Scientific consensus is how the current accepted scientific paradigms are communicated.

Quote:

I was not referring to Science as it seems rare to reproduce experiments at home

Ok great. I argue the most true response would be an individual following the experimental protocols and duplicating that the conclusions are valid. This would be the best way to find responses yourself.

@Zardoz

Quote:

The US legislation enforces three-way converters but while the European legislation is lagging behind, I have found 0 information that claims that recent European cars do not use three-way converters anyway. Can you provide any links?

I enjoy reading this magazine, but the web site lacks. Still some of the best info on the whole industry

You might also find this EPA Tier standard in the US interesting

enjoy

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @Dandy Quote: Yeah - but what I was waiting for was not a quote of some editorials, it was an answer to my question, you know? Your question: Quote: Just to lull mercantile perverted minds that there`s still time enough to make some bucks to the disadvantage of this planet and the future of its inhabitants, without having to fear to get the bill presented or what? To reply to your question, you have to see around who are the main actors of the mess and what they are after. You will see that all of the show is consistent with money and ideology, not Science. Hints: Gore, Strong, Obama, Strong and Gore's business: Chicago Climate Exchange and Generation Investment Management LLP, the ideology, etc

Errrrrmmmmmmmmm - the "environment protection idea" is nearly as old as the "industrial revolution", when mankind began to pollute the environment.

Popularity of this idea increased again since the late sixties/early seventies in the western countries.

I can't remember having heard Gore, Strong or Obama being mentioned back then.

BTW - Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Burkhard Heim and other well-known physicists have expressed their concerns about human handling of the environment and warned against the consequences.

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Now, no one will prevent you to continue believing...

Wouldn't you agree that it is somehow bold to imply well-known physicists like Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose and Burkhard Heim are just "believing"?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Dandy Quote: Not sure what you`re trying to say with that... Sorry go back to the last thread and you read the 2-3 pages of quotes from TMTiF trying to prove to us that the tinfoil hat wearing moonbattery conspiracy theory of GW creating their own secret religion to try and take over the world.

I see...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @Dandy Quote: What do you mean with "orientation of the mountains"? You know South, East, West, etc.

No, I don't know.

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: Hmmmmm - why should there be "no tree around, no air conditioner, no chimney, no land usage changes around"? Most wheather stations have trees around, some air conditioners and chimneys nearby and land usage changes around - e.g. the wheather station at Cologne Airport... Have a look here.

Yeah - and what do you expect me to do now?
Shall I take a folding rule and check all stations if they comply with the "NOAA's new Climate Reference Network" or not?


Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: No - it is commonly accepted by the scientific community - except by a few AntiGlobalWarming fascists, perhaps... That is the mantra of the few remaining Anthropogenic Glogal Warming (AGW) ecoterrorists except it is untrue as demonstrated in my previous posts if you search a bit..

No - it's the name you called the "global warming" believers...
I just wanted to see if this has the same sound in your ears as it has in mine...


Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: Ahhhh - now we start dicussing my question what benefit the AntiGlobalWarming propaganda has at all. What would you prefer - saving some money by not doing anything, but having to die by the consequences of the disclaimed GW or spending all your money on the environment and survive? And don`t come and tell that its all just a unprooven hypothesis - it might be too late if you wait for the proof - you might be "grilled" before a result is in sight. If you prefer to wait for the proof you can as well play Russian roulette... Ahhh, the big scary marketing campaign by the neo-catastrophysicists...

We have a saying in place here:
"Better to be a living faintheart than a dead hero!"

I wouldn't call that "the big scary marketing campaign by the neo-catastrophysicists", I'd rather call it rational.

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: Are you trying to re-write the chapter about the genesis of crude oil? Others have done it before: check the previous thread. It is not because your mind is comfortably formated with old theories that I should feel obligated to instruct you.

Maybe its an old theory, but its the only one I found so far:
how oil forms

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: If you insist to approach the problem in a scientific way, you have to look at it this way. The correct scientific approach is to include mankind as a part of Nature. ...

I didn't exclude it.
What I cannot accept as part of nature is what mankind does.

Or do you think industry is part of nature as well, as mankind is part of it?

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: If you want to judge wether CO2 is a pollutant or not you have to look at its effective heat capacity. Or just try to breathe pure CO2 - if you survive 5 minutes I`ll agree that CO2 is not an pollutant. And if you kill yourself, I will have a chance to not respond to such extremist non-sense.

It's equally extreme nonsense to claim that crude oil is not formed by fossiles.

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: And you`re not asking yourself why the polar ice caps and glaciers worldwide are melting, while the climate should become cooler by the missig sunspot activity? 1/ your "polar ice caps and glaciers worldwide are melting" is not exact;

As you can speak a bit German, you might want to read this news item from 17.04.2009 | 06:43 |

or this EADS article

or this term paper from students of the Rostock University

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: ... 2/ my "And what has the lack of sunspot to do with climate?" still stands.

You mean you still didn't explain why you first say my explanation is mostly correct and now ask me what the lack of sunspot has to do with climate?



Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Quote: Yeah - in the junk science papers from the "Anti Global Warming" fraction perhaps... Given your rhetorical approach

I just stepped down and used the same rhetoric as you did - interesting that you appearently object me using it, while using it yourself in the first place...

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: mixed with dusted facts since the beginning, it seems that you stop reading the scientific literature some decades ago.

The links I provided just a few lines up should proove the contrary to you - the latest is just 5 days old...

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: If you have nothing new to propose, I have no time to lose in food fighting.

Running out of arguments?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

physicists like Albert Einstein

where did Einstein write about the dangers of co2 and global warming?

Quote:

No - it's the name you called the "global warming" believers...

the term "junk science" still works.

Last edited by Interesting on 22-Apr-2009 at 04:30 PM.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

more food for thought

Cyclones may feed global warming

Scientists at Harvard University have found that tropical cyclones readily inject ice far into the stratosphere, possibly feeding global warming.

The finding, published in Geophysical Research Letters, provides more evidence of the intertwining of severe weather and global warming by demonstrating a mechanism by which storms could drive climate change. Many scientists now believe that global warming, in turn, is likely to increase the severity of tropical cyclones.

"Since water vapor is an important greenhouse gas, an increase of water vapor in the stratosphere would warm the Earth's surface," says David M. Romps, a research associate in Harvard's Department of Earth and Planetary Science. "Our finding that tropical cyclones are responsible for many of the clouds in the stratosphere opens up the possibility that these storms could affect global climate, in addition to the oft-mentioned possibility of climate change affecting the frequency and intensity of tropical cyclones."


more....

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Dandy

Quote:

Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Burkhard Heim and other well-known physicists have expressed their concerns about human handling of the environment and warned against the consequences.

Though we've seen good scientists get fooled. One noteable case is Linus Pauling. He argued that mega dosing vitamin C would cure cancer. He was scorned by the medical and scientific community for this idea and for failing to provide scientific proof.

BTW did you ever check out Heim not needed ?

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: physicists like Albert Einstein where did Einstein write about the dangers of co2 and global warming? ...

If you read e.g. this book, you will find that he writes about the dangers of environment pollution and its possible consequences in general.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Dandy Quote: Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Burkhard Heim and other well-known physicists have expressed their concerns about human handling of the environment and warned against the consequences. Though we've seen good scientists get fooled. One noteable case is Linus Pauling. He argued that mega dosing vitamin C would cure cancer. He was scorned by the medical and scientific community for this idea and for failing to provide scientific proof. BTW did you ever check out Heim not needed ?

Checked it - but found no mention of "Heim not needed" - just your "Einstein was right. Heim wrong"-claim.

The link you gave in that post to support your claim does not mention Heim at all.
So - how do you come to your conclusion that Heim was wrong from this article?

Have you ever read a single book of Heim at all?

He never claimed Einsteins "e=mc2" formula was wrong...

I advise you to buy Heim's books and to read them, before you claim inapplicable things about Heim and his work...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @BrianK ... Nothing than hard cold data to silently extinguish wrong claims: ... And again: ...

And what are these graphs meant to show?
While the x-axis seems to display years, what does the y-axis display?
Trouser buttons?

Graphs rejected as unscientific...

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: ... Mathematics is a Science in every meaning a sane person could think of it. ...

Scientists themselves do not agree on mathematics being a science or not.
Some even hold the position of mathematics being a language.
I see it as toolbox for natural scientists...
[/quote]

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @BrianK ... In either case typical cognitive dissonance of a blind believer. ...

[sarcasm on]

Now that's what I call a scientific statement...

[/sarcasm off]

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: ... Nothing surprising in fact given your track record, it is your best field.

Do you really think personal attacks like this hint to a self-opinionated "track record" are suited to increase the plausibility of your claims?

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: ... Currently putting CO² in atmosphere here, as much as is possible.

To avoid the poisoning of other persons you should really inhale it yourself in a closed room with nobody else present, if you really want to demonstrate to us how untoxic CO² is.

I'm really curious for the outcome of this experiment...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @BrianK ... Antartica Peninsula exhibits the MWP and LIA. Coastal Antartica at Law Dome also shows a warming in the MWP and before: Quote: The late Holocene records clearly identify Neoglacial events of the Little Ice Age (LIA) and Medieval Warm Period (MWP). Other unexplained climatic events comparable in duration and amplitude to the LIA and MWP events also appear in the MS record, suggesting intrinsically unstable climatic conditions during the late Holocene in the Bransfield Basin of Antarctic Peninsula: ...

In this context this NASA article might be of interest for you:


...
Using ICESat data, scientists recently confirmed that there is accelerated movement of glaciers on the West Antarctic ice sheet and the Antarctic Peninsula (located at about 10 o’clock) following the breakup of the floating ice shelf onto which the glaciers flowed. At the American Geophysical Union (AGU) Conference in San Francisco, on December 13, 2004, scientists from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center reported that part of the West Antarctic ice sheet is growing thinner as a result of this glacial flow into the Bellingshausen Sea. Any significant flow of glacial ice off Antarctica will contribute to rising sea level. (For more details, please see NASA’s ICESat Satellite Sees Changing World Affecting Many.)
...


Does this count as proof for shrinking polar ice caps at the present time for you?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

The link you gave in that post to support your claim does not mention Heim at all. So - how do you come to your conclusion that Heim was wrong from this article?

I haven't read Heim directly. I have read various books of people writing on and supporting Heim's theories.

I found it interesting that the Heim books support Heim due to his theories prediction of mass. These books use this as one of the leading reasons to support Heim over Einstein. Now we have someone who worked out how to use Einstein's theories to predict mass.

Certainly it doesn't prove Heim wrong. It does take away one of the reasons they use to put Heim in front of Einstein.

@Dandy

Quote:

Quote: The correct scientific approach is to include mankind as a part of Nature. I didn't exclude it. What I cannot accept as part of nature is what mankind does.

The claim for 'nature' is a failure IMO. Just because it's 'nature' doesn't mean it's an option that promotes life. Certainly Saturn is natural so we can move all the polar bears there and they will live happy lifes. And of course various poisons both to organisms and to the environment do occur naturally.

@Dandy

Quote:

and its possible consequences in general.

and wouldn't you agree that one possible consequence of more co2 would be a higher growth rate of plants to soak up the Co2?

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

You might be under some misconceptions. All cars since 1975 sold in the USA have a catalytic converter. I can go into more detail but this link isdecent. You might wish to read the part under "Regulations". See the fact is that the USA leads the world in cleaning in its regulation of exhaust. " In Japan a similar set of regulations came into effect January 1, 2007, while the European Union has not yet enacted analogous regulations." hope that helps you understand.

Can you help me also with interpretation of that picture:



This is LA.

What do you see? Is it fog or smog?

I like this picture:





After rain "left" and "normal" (right) purity of air? Sure this happens in ANY CITY in the world. What is a reason? Beans...?

And now deep breath...someone have so filter this air :(

_________________
I change my mind. Now when I know AmigaOS4.1 is legal... :D. Thank you Hyperion!

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @SpaceDruid ... you find the opposite evidence using independent military data that Artic ice has thickened in 2006-2007 & 2008. ...

"independent military data" from the US army - muahahahahahaha!!!


Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the United States Of America is the President of the United States Of America.
The "President of the United States Of America" is a politician.

Didn't you repeatedly rail against politically influenced science?
And now you're trying to sell exactly this "politically influenced science" to us...

How did you call that all the time?

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: Pseudo-science as usual.

Exactly.
(q.e.d.)

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: @Interesting ... Do not expect these clowns debunk themselves, they have vested interests. ...

I'm still waiting for an evidence that you or the authors of the sources you cited so far
don't have vested interests...

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote: ... Etc, etc. Boring.

Yeah - you say it - accusing others to "have vested interests" without showing beyond doubt that youself don't have such interests - really boring...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)