@Leo

>>I don't care how small it can be. I just want something fresh, powerfull, new, and not limited by any hardware or legacy problem...

You are dreaming

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@SHADES

You guys keep thinking that the desktop is the only market out there.

It's not. OS4 is incapable of being a server OS, however (meaning, one that anyone would buy - simply missing too many things and it's architecture doesn't work for a commercial server OS), and it would take far more resources than there are to make it even remotely possible vs Linux or Windows on the backend, even if it had the apps required (which it doesn't).

Right now, OS4 has very limited appeal in it's current state. Desktop use - missing many apps and OS functionality for anyone to take it seriously not already interested in Amiga or 'alternative hobby OSes.'

A few thousand OS4 users simply isn't enough to sustain a company, or even really, cover operating and dev expenses to date. Get to 5,000 users, then 10,000, then you've got the start of a market on the desktop, even if a *tiny* one, that could at least perhaps allow for profit going forward and evolving the OS further. Using all available resources to port to some x86 system, for say 9-12 months with JIT PPC and 68k emulation (must be able to be used in a commercial product..) halts the rest of the OS development, for all intents and purposes.

Besides that, what else is there? Basically, any specialized consumer device that would result in a modified version of the OS running on it- There's a still an STB market of sorts (like the new netflix $100 box), and perhaps chance to replace the utterly crap software that comes on today's cable companies DVRs. PDAs are dead, but who knows what the next handheld consumer tool/toy/device might be? Assuming it's PPC (and some have been, and will possibly still be), there could be a market there.

Either one requires similar levels of work on the core OS, and perhaps some apps, as well. If instead, all effort is expended on porting to x86, you can't get much work done on the deficit between 'what is' versus 'what is needed' to gain broader desktop appeal (even if for a limited number) OR what they believe may be needed for some possible future consumer electronics device. Bad choice, unless the dev team triples in size somehow, and Hyperion has a *whole* lot of 'spare money' laying around.

And, you still have the court case. While it's possible/likely Hyperion expect to win that, eventually, what if they don't? Was a port to some utterly random architecture even remotely included in the contract? Kinda doubt it. Good way to commit financial suicide, either way, at least *today*. If some things chance (finances, court case), then more things become at least possible.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@SHADES

>>Why develop at all then?
Who wants to develop for a piece of H/W that cost 3 times as much and does far less than Windows already? At least on x86, if they like the AMIGA feel of the OS, they don't have to rely on someone wilth millions to "consider" making that H/W for those 1000 users.


Must agree with Wegster here...


Also just give OS4 on PPC a chance. We are just at the beginning.

I am still quite sure that IF Amiga x86 existed developers would still develop for Windows, just my feeling.

If you know some mad person who would like to invest lots of $ in porting Amiga OS to x86 then please let us know

Last edited by TheDaddy on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:01 PM.

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Quote:

Yes, because we have some users. If we drop PPC we lose the current users

So what ?

What's the difference between 1000 and 0 users ?

A new modern OS available on modern hardware would attract way, way more than 1000 users. That's my point.

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:05 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo
Quote:

Leo wrote: I don't care how small it can be. I just want something fresh, powerfull, new, and not limited by any hardware or legacy problem... A true AmigaNG. There are modern OS, but none with Amiga-like features. None different like the Amiga was.

It's called AnubisOS and you might want to keep an eye on it:
http://anubis-os.org/home/

@all
Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where Hyperion said 'Fine, we'll port it, but we need money upfront first'. If you imagine the scale of funds needed just to get a working x86 port, and then you imagine what those same funds could do if put towards AROS and AnubisOS bounties, and you'll see AOS4 on x86 is a collossal waste of funds.

For the same amount of money you could get a super polished AROS or give the new kid on the block (AnubisOS) a kick start (Amiga pun not intended).

@TheDaddy

Quote:

I am still quite sure that IF Amiga x86 existed developers would still develop for Windows

thats not for sure just you are thinking thats way..

well & i`m sure we will get every new software windows getting.
Downloads will be like.
Windows / Mac-x86/linux-x86 /amiga-x86


There is no point porting or compiling an software needs powerfull HW.
thats why we dont get any Software companies trying to compile one for amigas.
and most Software companies nows x86 is business not PPC why would them get them self`s in trouble by going for dead PPC market.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@serk118
Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

You dolt. You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs? Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is? If it's so easy why isn't AROS's software library huge in comparison with the other Amiga-like OS flavours?

@HenryCase

Quote:

You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs

you never never now matey....x86 is still in business and more secure than dead ppc market and yes by moving to another architecture will make amiga get reqinize by software companies.


Quote:

Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is?

yes maybe more than i should not beeee.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @SHADES You guys keep thinking that the desktop is the only market out there. It's not. OS4 is incapable of being a server OS, however (meaning, one that anyone would buy - simply missing too many things and it's architecture doesn't work for a commercial server OS), and it would take far more resources than there are to make it even remotely possible vs Linux or Windows on the backend, even if it had the apps required (which it doesn't). Right now, OS4 has very limited appeal in it's current state. Desktop use - missing many apps and OS functionality for anyone to take it seriously not already interested in Amiga or 'alternative hobby OSes.' A few thousand OS4 users simply isn't enough to sustain a company, or even really, cover operating and dev expenses to date. Get to 5,000 users, then 10,000, then you've got the start of a market on the desktop, even if a *tiny* one, that could at least perhaps allow for profit going forward and evolving the OS further. Using all available resources to port to some x86 system, for say 9-12 months with JIT PPC and 68k emulation (must be able to be used in a commercial product..) halts the rest of the OS development, for all intents and purposes. Besides that, what else is there? Basically, any specialized consumer device that would result in a modified version of the OS running on it- There's a still an STB market of sorts (like the new netflix $100 box), and perhaps chance to replace the utterly crap software that comes on today's cable companies DVRs. PDAs are dead, but who knows what the next handheld consumer tool/toy/device might be? Assuming it's PPC (and some have been, and will possibly still be), there could be a market there.

It is the market for AmigaOS. What 'other' market is out there for OS4 is not the desktop -READ Hobby market?

You can't seriously think a company would buy it for emedded use? I mean who the hell is going to write their specific apps?? Even so why wouldn't they just use a small Linux distro and not be tied to some company like Hyperion?

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@HenryCase

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: @serk118 Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! You dolt. You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs? Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is? If it's so easy why isn't AROS's software library huge in comparison with the other Amiga-like OS flavours?

Well we're not getting them now anyway. At least we will have H/W in 5 years and the ability to develop for it. At the moment, it's out of the reach of most Hobby OS owners. A smaller userbase will only inflate costs of future re-designs.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @SHADES You guys keep thinking that the desktop is the only market out there. It's not. OS4 is incapable of being a server OS, however (meaning, one that anyone would buy - simply missing too many things and it's architecture doesn't work for a commercial server OS), and it would take far more resources than there are to make it even remotely possible vs Linux or Windows on the backend, even if it had the apps required (which it doesn't). Right now, OS4 has very limited appeal in it's current state. Desktop use - missing many apps and OS functionality for anyone to take it seriously not already interested in Amiga or 'alternative hobby OSes.' A few thousand OS4 users simply isn't enough to sustain a company, or even really, cover operating and dev expenses to date. Get to 5,000 users, then 10,000, then you've got the start of a market on the desktop, even if a *tiny* one, that could at least perhaps allow for profit going forward and evolving the OS further. Using all available resources to port to some x86 system, for say 9-12 months with JIT PPC and 68k emulation (must be able to be used in a commercial product..) halts the rest of the OS development, for all intents and purposes. Besides that, what else is there? Basically, any specialized consumer device that would result in a modified version of the OS running on it- There's a still an STB market of sorts (like the new netflix $100 box), and perhaps chance to replace the utterly crap software that comes on today's cable companies DVRs. PDAs are dead, but who knows what the next handheld consumer tool/toy/device might be? Assuming it's PPC (and some have been, and will possibly still be), there could be a market there. Either one requires similar levels of work on the core OS, and perhaps some apps, as well. If instead, all effort is expended on porting to x86, you can't get much work done on the deficit between 'what is' versus 'what is needed' to gain broader desktop appeal (even if for a limited number) OR what they believe may be needed for some possible future consumer electronics device. Bad choice, unless the dev team triples in size somehow, and Hyperion has a *whole* lot of 'spare money' laying around. And, you still have the court case. While it's possible/likely Hyperion expect to win that, eventually, what if they don't? Was a port to some utterly random architecture even remotely included in the contract? Kinda doubt it. Good way to commit financial suicide, either way, at least *today*. If some things chance (finances, court case), then more things become at least possible.

Agree, and that limited appeal is getting more and more limmited with each H/W offering because :-
A.) it's too expensive,
B) it's too slow
C) It's a hobby Os that can't compete in its current state
D) there is no huge bag of development money.
=
Not going to buy it
=
Less users
=
Less Development
=
Less users and more expensive H/W
=
Less usrs
= No development.

those "markets" you believe will save this Os are not saving the OS. They are not big enough and more than enough people have already made it clear this is making it very difficult for development to continue. There is very little money, H/W is expensive and not viable for most users, certainly not the people that love the AMIGA OS and try to use it even at hobby status. Only the Rich people can afford it.

If the Os is being designed for embedded designs, there are similar on x86 hw. i read about one such embedded x86 board for cars on TomsHardware. Looked good too! Multimedia, small, low powered, low heat etc etc.

Others have already suggested $ for development of code to x86 and package of the OS at $200 would have a good return at 1000 unit sales. the x86 platform at least opens the door to a lot more than 1000 potential users.

When the current offereing given further reduces the userbase, it's time to look at Alternatives before there is nothing left.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:59 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote: @SHADES >>Why develop at all then? Who wants to develop for a piece of H/W that cost 3 times as much and does far less than Windows already? At least on x86, if they like the AMIGA feel of the OS, they don't have to rely on someone wilth millions to "consider" making that H/W for those 1000 users. Must agree with Wegster here... Also just give OS4 on PPC a chance. We are just at the beginning. I am still quite sure that IF Amiga x86 existed developers would still develop for Windows, just my feeling. If you know some mad person who would like to invest lots of $ in porting Amiga OS to x86 then please let us know

That's fine ;) your choice.
I can't afford that H/W and also shell out for the OS. I can't justify it and it doesn't suit any of my needs other than run AMIGA OS 4.1 which I can't afford because of the H/W offering blahh blahh blahh.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@TheDaddy

Quote:

We are just at the beginning

A new marketing slogan

We are just at the beginning: since 1994!

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@Chain-Q

>I did x86 coding for years, when i was using OS/2, but not again. If PPC is dead, then >nextgen Amiga systems are dead anyway, because we're not Apple, we won't >survive yet another CPU migration.

Do you code in asm ?

if not, then you notice not what CPU is in.

>If PPC is a dead end as it's now, and my PPC machines finally go belly up, i'll >probably switch to an Intel Mac on the desktop, and for hobby coding, i'll go back to >68k. (In emulation, if there's nothing else left.

68k is nicest CPU architecture i think.it makes me fun to code optimized asm routines, X86 32, PPC make me no fun, but X86 64 is ok, only i dislike is byteorder it look confuse in asm debugger. also other risc CPU make me no fun to code fast routines in asm.

but 68k live forever thru emulator.
But if there come a new amiga system that is sell 20000-30000 (or chances that it can sell )times this is enough motivation for me to buy a Amiga system extra system.

but still i develop on 68k if there are not better dev tools here.Most time cost developing, and with bad develop/debugging tools it cost much more time.later can than port to this systems with bad developing tools more easy because most Bugs are find on 68k side.

@serk118
Quote:

serk118 wrote: @HenryCase Quote: You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs you never never now matey....x86 is still in business and more secure than dead ppc market and yes by moving to another architecture will make amiga get reqinize by software companies. Quote: Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is? yes maybe more than i should not beeee.

Applications are ported to a new platform when there is a need or an opportunity, not on a whim, unless the developer is sympathetic to our cause. Amiga platforms are not a big enough target, even on x86. Even if the platform had 20,000 users (optimistic) that is small fry in comparison with the millions that use Windows, Mac and Linux.

There seems to be some sort of magic delusion in Amiga land that anyone who touches OS4 will be instantly converted. Not true, most people like the way the get their computing done because they understand how to do things. Look at the growing pains Linux is going through with Windows users having to relearn how to do things, and you expect most of these users to go through the same thing when AOS4 is more readily available? Dream on. AmigaOS4 is for AmigaOS fans and people interested in alternative OSes, end of.

@SHADES
Quote:

SHADES wrote: @HenryCase Quote: HenryCase wrote: @serk118 Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! You dolt. You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs? Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is? If it's so easy why isn't AROS's software library huge in comparison with the other Amiga-like OS flavours? Well we're not getting them now anyway. At least we will have H/W in 5 years and the ability to develop for it. At the moment, it's out of the reach of most Hobby OS owners. A smaller userbase will only inflate costs of future re-designs.

You can develop for it now, AmiDevCpp and AROS gives you free dev environment for all AmigaOS flavours. AmigaOS4 users could report any bugs they find back to the dev, simple. The apps aren't there because (by and large) the interest isn't there, get over it.

Quote:

SHADES wrote: Others have already suggested $ for development of code to x86 and package of the OS at $200 would have a good return at 1000 unit sales. the x86 platform at least opens the door to a lot more than 1000 potential users.

You're looking at the sales when the x86 OS4 is ready, but the port would COST MONEY TO DEVELOP. Who is going to financially support Hyperion to pay their coders to make the port? Are you going to do it? Is the Amiga community at large going to do it (through bounties)? Are you going to pay the coders with IOU notes? Really, this is the point that a number of people can't grasp, the development of the x86 code costs money, it doesn't matter how many they could potentially sell if the product can't be made without funding.

Also, I hope the x86 advocates realise that an x86 port would require spending more money on hardware, simply because drivers are not going to be available for all x86 hardware, and if you don't think that Hyperion would try and recover some of their development costs through increased hardware prices you are mistaken.

why is PPC a dead platform for Amiga OS?

if is so, why all actual game consoles use PPC-technology?

_________________
I´m back in 2023 on Classic Amiga with my A1200/Blizzard1230IB@50Mhz, 32MB RAM, AmigaOS3.2 and ROMs, Indivision AGA MK3, Author of Amiga-Flipclock (OS4)

@HenryCase

Quote:

If it's so easy why isn't AROS's software library huge in comparison with the other Amiga-like OS flavours?

Or, for that matter all the other OSes that are there for x86, like PC-BSD. Does that one have the same portfolio of apps Windows has? Does the Mac, while x86 nowadays, have the same portfolio of apps hat Windows has? Does Linux... ehm, leave it.

It won't matter one jolt if Amiga is going x86. NO ONE is going to develop for AMiga, BECAUSE it runs x86. One develops for a specific OS, because of either a liking for the OS or a liking for the money that can be had there. Besides, one can cross-compile FOR PPC FROM x86 if I'm well informed.

This whole x86 thing is utter madness, so please heed the title of this thread.

But, again, I would not dislike an Amiga with a wee bit more muscles.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@fingus

Quote:

if is so, why all actual game consoles use PPC-technology?

Because gaming is dead, stone dead! And all them big game console companies are investing in death! Because death is our sure and only final future, the ultimate stage in life, which is then no longer called life.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@HenryCase

Quote:

Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! You dolt. You really think that just by moving a platform to a different architecture we'll get a ton more programs? Do you even know what ReAction or MUI is? If it's so easy why isn't AROS's software library huge in comparison with the other Amiga-like OS flavours?

You`re obviously not getting the depth of his words... Read again, and again...and again...

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@HenryCase

Quote:

@SHADES You're looking at the sales when the x86 OS4 is ready, but the port would COST MONEY TO DEVELOP. Who is going to financially support Hyperion to pay their coders to make the port? Are you going to do it? Is the Amiga community at large going to do it (through bounties)? Are you going to pay the coders with IOU notes? Really, this is the point that a number of people can't grasp, the development of the x86 code costs money, it doesn't matter how many they could potentially sell if the product can't be made without funding. Also, I hope the x86 advocates realise that an x86 port would require spending more money on hardware, simply because drivers are not going to be available for all x86 hardware, and if you don't think that Hyperion would try and recover some of their development costs through increased hardware prices you are mistaken.

Folks keep glossing over this or summarily ignoring it. To the point that I have to wonder if some of them are not just trolling

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 07:28 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200