Quote:

People buying an X1000 are the same kind as the people who bought a brand new A2000 / A3000 / A4000 when they were released. I mean, the most of them could have settled with an A500, A600 (erm.. doesn't quite fit, I know), A1200 but just bought the far more expensive big-boxes because they could. Sure, for that money you could buy far more powerfull hardware, but would it provide you with the same satisfaction?

what i responded to is the above. because this argument is hopelessly stretched. as for if i buy x1k if it appears, hmm, most likely not, but as i said, i will decide first as soon i know what exactly i would be getting. reports by other users would be helpful here. dont catch me by my word as to that just now.

The great thing I like about the AXK, even though after a decade of saving up I still cant afford one, and use a PC out of the bin running Ubuntu, is that...

Compared to the similar machines and systems going on the market, NOT x86.. Its CHEAP.

You look up the costs of programmable development boards, and Military and Industrial development boards, instead of mere Hobby Dev boards, which Also require a PC to actually run the Dev softwaer on.

If you really want to get in on teh ground floor of autonomous vehicles, aircraft, lunar rovers, smart deep space probes, useable autonomous robots, then the AXK is about the cheapest its possible to get.

There are also neuralnets and genetic algorithms on Aminet from teh 90s, so patents are not so much a problem 8)

I still say the Amigas phonetic based method is Vastly more efficint than sample based speech recognition, and I offered the algorithm many years ago for anyone to process data, that looks to be very similar to IBMs Watson, but the earliest I have it date stamped on teh net is 2003. 8)

IBM said they started looking at it in 2007.

So.. simply put.. compared to Military and Industrial Dev systems, which are its near equivalent, the AXK is either Comparable in cost, or Greatly cheaper.

These Dev systems are also mostly only produced in small numbers, from what I understand. There are mega produuctions of certain types, but I believe they are the rareity.

Save up, Sell teh car, get a smaller second hand one, put the difference towards the AXK. Youll spend more time at the AXK than in the car, saving you even more money.

And I apologise for the typos, I have no idea how my muscle memory of 30 years keyboard work can invert like that. 8(

_________________
The older and more respected a scientist is, the longer it takes to prove him wrong.

@DAX

the people in the 90ies who bought big box amigas bought them not because up to date software might work on them, or to buy weirdiest computer. most sanely those kind of people usually bought workstations equipped with dedicated soft, which was all in all cheaper and better than other solutions available for them at that time. thats all im saying. to buy x1k this logic is not applicable.

@RodTerl

Quote:

If you really want to get in on teh ground floor of autonomous vehicles, aircraft, lunar rovers, smart deep space probes, useable autonomous robots, then the AXK is about the cheapest its possible to get.

What? I don't even...

Quote:

I still say the Amigas phonetic based method is Vastly more efficint than sample based speech recognition

What Amiga speech recognition? You're loosing me completely here.

Quote:

So.. simply put.. compared to Military and Industrial Dev systems, which are its near equivalent, the AXK is either Comparable in cost, or Greatly cheaper.

Really? That's not even-apple-to-oranges (both are round fruits) that's apples-to-lumber. Firstly, X1000 target is a handful of guys with a thing for Amiga. I can't really see you pitch X1000 to anyone in the industry "Please note that even this board can't be put in a blade nor it comes with extended replace-at-instant warranty the white tower with embossed boing ball will make your bridge constructing software running so much better? CPU? Yes, state of the art EOL chip. Software? In house Linux distro and AmigaOS4.1!"

X1000 is for Amiga fans and hobbyists, if you could sell such hardware outside of community Eyetech's rebranded boards and Pegasos would bring tons of money. They didn't sell much outside Amiga community. And Pegasos was really good computer, stable with strong (for a niche computer) support from Linux developers.

The X1000 for Industry and Military is the new OS4 for embedded systems day dream.

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@opi

Quote:

OS4 for embedded systems day dream

Funny how this little myth cought on, isn't it?

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

Rather than continuously telling us what you think the machine can't do, why not ask the Varisys people what they think it can do? The XMOS expansion was their idea after all.

amiganews.de has just recently managed wring some details out of them, so its probably worth a try.

Last edited by T-J on 11-Mar-2011 at 11:03 AM.

@opi

Quote:

The X1000 for Industry and Military is the new OS4 for embedded systems day dream.

Can you see into the future? Do you work for the military in every country? How are you privy to such factual information?

Last edited by Wizzard_o on 11-Mar-2011 at 11:15 AM.

_________________
Rev 1D3 Amiga 1200, Apollo 1240 (40Mhz '040, 64MB RAM), Indivision MKII, Fast ATA MK V, Rapid Road USB, PCMCIA WIFI & OS 3.14

@RodTerl

Quote:

There are also neuralnets and genetic algorithms on Aminet from teh 90s, so patents are not so much a problem 8)

Eh, yes. There are neural nets and genetic algorithms that are 20 years out of step with the leading edge of development in those fields, yes, and that were toys even when they were put there. Any university textbook in these fields are full of examples that are more advanced than the AI stuff you find on Aminet.

Quote:

I still say the Amigas phonetic based method is Vastly more efficint than sample based speech recognition, and I offered the algorithm many years ago for anyone to process data, that looks to be very similar to IBMs Watson, but the earliest I have it date stamped on teh net is 2003. 8)

Nobody does sample based speech recognition. If you mean *synthesis*, then you're right in terms of processing, but there are formant based synthesizers (like narrator.device) with 25 years more development than narrator.device out there, including by the same company that Commodore licensed narrator.device from. There's even open source solutions out there with better quality than narrator.device.

And narrator.device isn't licensed for current versions of AmigaOS anyway, so I don't see what your point is.

In terms of sound quality, though, nothing beats the sample based approaches in any case - anyone caring about sound quality will either use a fully sample based one, or one that combines small sample fragments.

I'm all for the X1000, but get real.

_________________
Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git

@Kremlar

Hmmm... Okay... then lets take a different example.

People own cars to transport them self from one location to another with minimum effort. This is a task that can be easily and reliably done, driving, for instance, a Suzuki Alto. Still... people by Opel / Vauxhall Astras, Ford Focuses and the likes because they need a little bit more (or because the neighbor owns a Corsa or Fiesta). Translating this to computers then the Suzuki Alto is your everyday entrance everything on the mainboard WinTel PC. The Astars / Focuses... compare those with the slightly higher specced out of the box WinTel PCs.

Then there are people who do not buy a Focus but opt for a far more expensive Audi A3. Something design related... the Apple buying crowd. Reasonable specs, nicely designed.

But what fun is it to buy a 'design' expensive car where you could spend the same (or easily more) money on a DIY Westfield? The result is probably a car performing less than an equal priced Audi. It probably lacks luxury and it is full of compromises ('do the kids have to come as well?') . But despite that... it is an awful lot of fun, draws a smile on your face.

(leans back for the counter, taking Ladas in the comparison )

_________________
Back home...

@Wizzard_o

Quote:

Do you work for the military in every country? How are you privy to such factual information?

Please do shot to messenger.

I know what AmigaOS4.1 can do, I know its limitations, I know its pace of development, I know some military and medical embedded systems. Putting this knowledge together I'm willing to bet that AmigaOS4.x won't end up in any military equipment in ten years and probably never.

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@Wizzard_o

Quote:

Well don’t buy it then, better yet don’t respond to a thread about a product your not going to buy or constantly drone on about why your not going to buy it in a thread about a product your not going to buy...

Becasue I'm interested in the Amiga (what's left of it) and wish they would succeed.

Quote:

I think I can sum up most of the counter X1000 arguments, MOAN 1.!! Its too expensive for me!!! -- Open a savings account and put some cash aside! I've been saving since it was announced and if the say-sayers are right and it doesn’t get released I’ll still have the money to buy a Sam 460... If you can't save any money, well Tough it's out of your price range and that’s that, moaning about it is not going to help.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that I (and I'm sure others that feel the same as me) don't have enough money for it. I just don't feel it's worth what they're going to have to charge. I don't care how much money I have in the bank - if I don't feel something is worth its asking price, I'm not going to buy it. I feel the same about the Sam 460. For me to get back into today's Amiga market, the entry price has to be lower.

As for people who simply can't afford the product, I still don't think your argument makes sense. If you want a successful product it's your job to price it so your target audience can afford it. It's not the job of your target audience to get a 2nd job to save for your overpriced product - that's a sure recipe for failure.

Quote:

MOAN 2.!! Its not x86!!!, x86 better because X, Y & Z!!! -- Ether that or you already have an x86 PC and you don’t want to spend any money to run OS4. Besides the PC platform has dozens of OS's out there will one more on pirate bay really make any difference? (apart from harming OS4 development and ripping off Hyperion's hard work) OS4 is not open source, if you want to see improvements in the OS you must invest in the OS and pay for them, besides what better way to protect that hard work than by running it on custom PPC hardware.

Again, missing my point. I don't necessarily want to run an Amiga OS on my existing hardware, I just think it's silly for what's left of the Amiga market to target a lesser performing, higher priced hardware platform that no one in the mainstream market uses. I would be willing to support the OS with my $, but they're asking for too many concessions. What better a way to limit your OS sales than by targeting high-priced custom PPC hardware.

As for the "million dollars" to port OS4, I don't think it would be quite that high. It's amazing what a couple of $100,000/year programmers can accomplish in a full year working 40-60 hours a week. I'd love to see how much $ it's costing to develop the X1000.

What people seem to forget is that, when the Amiga was in its heyday, the Motorola 680x0 was a mainstream processor. It wasn't what was interesting about the Amiga. The creators of the Amiga weren't bozos - they went with Motorola because it would give them good price/performance. They differentiated themselves by creating something better where it made morse sense (the OS and the Amiga chipsets) - they weren't different JUST to be different, they were different where they could be better.

To recapture that would be extremely difficult in todays commodity market. You need a visionary that can see something that doesn't exist yet. If you want to go the Xena route, perhaps they should be making a custom PCIe graphics card with Xena on board? I have no idea, but I can tell you the solution is not a lower performing higher priced processor platform.

Quote:

Hmmm... Okay... then lets take a different example. People own cars to transport them self from one location to another with minimum effort. This is a task that can be easily and reliably done, driving, for instance, a Suzuki Alto. Still... people by Opel / Vauxhall Astras, Ford Focuses and the likes because they need a little bit more (or because the neighbor owns a Corsa or Fiesta). Translating this to computers then the Suzuki Alto is your everyday entrance everything on the mainboard WinTel PC. The Astars / Focuses... compare those with the slightly higher specced out of the box WinTel PCs. Then there are people who do not buy a Focus but opt for a far more expensive Audi A3. Something design related... the Apple buying crowd. Reasonable specs, nicely designed. But what fun is it to buy a 'design' expensive car where you could spend the same (or easily more) money on a DIY Westfield? The result is probably a car performing less than an equal priced Audi. It probably lacks luxury and it is full of compromises ('do the kids have to come as well?') . But despite that... it is an awful lot of fun, draws a smile on your face.

Ok, let's go with that! Unfortunately I'm not familiar with a DIY Westfield, but I googled it so think I know what you're getting at. Here's what I think:

I think it's apparent that people don't buy the Westfield over something else for performance, but for looks and perhaps the DIY aspect. I think that's why the original Amiga was successful - for its "looks". If I came over your house and you wanted to show off your Amiga, what would you show me to really wow me? Cars are obviously different because by driving a Westfield down the road you're going to turn heads. I don't think there's anything about the Amiga today that will "turn heads".

Also, I suspect if Honda came out with a similar product with similar looks to the Westfield, but sold it for much less and gave it much higher performance Westfield would be out of business!

How many people buy Westfields? If they are happy with that # of sales, I say that's great and perhaps they've carved themselves out a niche market. But, I'd argue that based on the looks of the Westfield and the heads they turn they might be a growing market (though slowly I'm sure). I suspect the current Amiga market is dying off rather than growing.

Let me compare it to something I'm very familiar with and I think is more appropriate (but perhaps not a good comparison for you). Let's say the standard Wintel boxes are the Chevy Corvette, while the Amiga is the Mazda RX-7. Back in the early 90s the RX-7 had its advantages - it was smaller, lighter, nimbler - and it was different. It had a twin-turbo rotary engine, extremely efficient for its size. I like being different (which is why I owned an Amiga), but I'm not stupid. I bought a 94 RX-7 because it was (in my opinion) superior to the Corvette. It had the traits I liked in a sports car, plus not everyone and their mother was driving one.

Fast forward to today, where the rotary engine lives in a Mazda RX-8. It handles well, but it's not very quick. Gas mileage is pretty bad compared to its competition. What are its advantages? I'm not going to buy one JUST because it has a different engine in it, just like I'm not going to buy an X1000 JUST because it has a different CPU in it. The RX-8 is mildly successful because it's at lease price competitive with it's competition, but the X1000 will not be.

@Kremlar

You not tired to write all that posts about car analogy, how good to have x86 cpu and so on ?:) I mean we all already read all of this 10000 times and maybe more. You say there nothing new.

Last edited by kas1e on 11-Mar-2011 at 01:04 PM.

_________________
Join us to improve dopus5!
zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites

@Kremlar

Quote:

The RX-8 is mildly successful because it's at lease price competitive with it's competition, but the X1000 will not be.

We don´t buy Amiga computers because we need them, but because we want them.
At any price.

Last edited by pavlor on 11-Mar-2011 at 01:16 PM.

Quote:

kas1e wrote: @Kremlar You not tired to write all that posts about car analogy, how good to have x86 cpu and so on ?:) I mean we all already read all of this 10000 times and maybe more. You say there nothing new.

ah c'mon give him a break man..he's new after all

@ Kremlar

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

@Kremlar

Quote:

Kremlar wrote: The RX-8 is mildly successful because it's at lease price competitive with it's competition, but the X1000 will not be.

What competition?

From the very beginning the X1000 was NOT intended to cater to the mainstream.

NEVER, have the people involved said it was for the casual user or game player.

The goal has never been to take over the world.

It is not a small, tiny, micro-mini motherboard, computer-in-a-joystick for a reason.

It has been stated all too often it is for a select group, not necessarily amigians.
Which group you ask?

Me,,, and other lunatic fringe inmates like me. The questions should not be about
processors or costs, rather how many lunatics are in this world.
I can only answer for myself..........1. And a very happy one at that.

And what is wrong with that?

X1000 = Beginning. Not the ultimate goal.

I would have thought by now, over 1 year, that people would have realized that you
can't use financial, economic, technical, popular, whatever logic on lunatics,
screwballs, geeks, dreamers, go-our-own-way type of people.

But you do keep trying....................Is that sane?

Please continue.

with

@pavlor

Quote:

We don´t buy Amiga computers because we need them, but because we want them. At any price.

that is in the end a honest answer without trying to back it up with rediculous claims. it would be better if everybody wanted x1k for what it is, not what he imagines it could possibly become. otherwise there might be a sore awakening and i doubt aeon or hyperion could be made responsible for that.

@klx300r

The good ole Car Analogy... Goes all the way back to the Dawn Of Computing.



The thing is, the computer marketplace was a lot different in those days. Most of the folk I knew with Amigas bought them because they could do something useful either better or cheaper than other machines. Even the gamers felt the Amiga was where to be. Nostalgia wasn't a factor. I didn't know anyone who bought an Amiga just because it was an Amiga or to run the OS. Maybe that's a good enough reason now to enough folks that the Ax1000 will make it in it's niche... more power to 'em if it does. I'm betting on the Natami & Replay boards, at least for my own interests.

Last edited by JimS on 11-Mar-2011 at 03:27 PM.

_________________
It's got 32 bits and it uses them all. It's overclocked, watch the bouncing ball!

@thread

Xena has been changed.

Quote:

We don´t buy Amiga computers because we need them, but because we want them. At any price.

Quote:

What competition? From the very beginning the X1000 was NOT intended to cater to the mainstream.

True, I have heard that was the target audience - a small percentage of the already small "Amiga" market. I just question the business model, that's all, and wonder if it would have been more prudent to go after a wider audience.

Quote:

The thing is, the computer marketplace was a lot different in those days. Most of the folk I knew with Amigas bought them because they could do something useful either better or cheaper than other machines. Even the gamers felt the Amiga was where to be. Nostalgia wasn't a factor. I didn't know anyone who bought an Amiga just because it was an Amiga or to run the OS. Maybe that's a good enough reason now to enough folks that the Ax1000 will make it in it's niche... more power to 'em if it does. I'm betting on the Natami & Replay boards, at least for my own interests.

I agree!