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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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Mr_DBUG 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:53:34
#161 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2005
Posts: 175
From: South of Oslo

Rational Amigans and even most people here dont anymore expect Amiga to take over the world anymore.. Just to fill its niche ! Whatever niche that is , hopefully we can have a market to pay for it..

NatAmi fills its niche, X1000 fills its niche, I just hope there is enough buyers to make it break even !
Maybe it will surprise people .. ! Anyway its a pretty good halfwayhouse .. !! Better than anything since the old Amigas were around .. But Id like to see more cooperation between AmigaOS4.x and AROS. To grow the market .. As long as there is no native AmigaOS for x86.

Taking over the world is not the objective any longer. .

Surviving in whatever way, and adding to our little geek retro demoprogramming niche is !

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:32:55
#162 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2940
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@TrevorDick

Quote:
For everyone who is thinking that the Power architecture is a dead end after PA-Semi.


You beat me to it!

Not to mention that you had posted this quite some time ago. It will be interesting to see how much performance they give.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:44:12
#163 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@-Sam-

They have all the same issues as PA6T. Those are CPUs mostly for big telcom switches and embedded systems. Sure you could use 'em for a desktop CPU, but then you'll pay the price of costs and performance.

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TrevorDick 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 20:06:04
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2636
From: Wellington

@WolfToTheMoon

Have you checked the unit prices? I think you might be surprised,

TrevorD

Last edited by TrevorDick on 16-Apr-2011 at 08:06 PM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 20:24:50
#165 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@TrevorDick

The cheapest P4080(8 cores, 1.2 GHz) is 370 $ for 100 CPUs order... No prices for 4040(4 cores).

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amigang 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 20:36:32
#166 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1360
From: Cheshire, England

@vidarh

Quote:
Personally I'd be happy if the combined Amiga-like OS's could get to the 50k user range - 1% of our heyday... It'd be enough to give us a steady stream of new applications and even some limited commercial support. It seems near impossible now, but then again so did the chance of Linux becoming a contender seem in the early 90's.


I'm completely with you their, all I would like to see is a return of say the late 90's, just enough users so that say Amiga Format could come back and World of Amiga show could return, the 50K user base could do that and be enough to substain a little niche market. A man can dream.

But any way I think the X1000 is a good next step for the OS it sets it up for the future, and as Tever points out PPC is far from dead yet, its just becoming more and more a niche market but still most likely 100 time bigger than the current Amiga market. linux isent getting much PPC support these days, so wouldn't it be great if the Amiga became the ultimate PPC Os to use for industry and developers, I mean there must be still a bit of demand and interest in PPC to continue these hardware developments, well they need an OS to power them, Amiga could be it.

Price and Performance is another thing people raise, well Price, if you think OS4 hardware is too dear and not the root to go, support Aros ( I personally will support both efforts and enjoy best of both worlds) as I already have a cheap net book that I can install aros, linux and what ever I like, but I dont have a custom built limited PPC AmigaOne system and I want one (if I can afford it).

Performance well judging by the programs and games the amiga community has current got, the x1000 should have more than enough power to run them all so why do we need more? I think the more power you give to developers the sloppier they become at making their coding efficient, look at vista compared to windows 7, some rewrites here and their and the performance is a least 30% faster on the same hardware, look at games consoles and how each year they seem to get better and better graphics and performance from the same hardware. Plus the tablet and mobile phones have faster app running on their 1Ghz devices compared to my dual core 3Ghz PC! Plus the way things are going the GPU is becoming more important than the CPU.


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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 20:54:45
#167 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@TrevorDick

Quote:

TrevorDick wrote:
For everyone who is thinking that the Power architecture is a dead end after PA-Semi. Take a peek at the Freescale QorIQ Processing Platforms by Family.

QorIQ Communications Platforms
P1 Platform - Up to 800 MHz, (less than 5W Max.)
P1010/P1014 low-power communications processors
P1020/P1011 single- and dual-core communications processors
P1021/P1012 single- and dual-core multiprotocol communications processors
P1022/P1013 single- and dual-core communications processors with advanced energy management
P1023/P1017 single- and dual-core communications processors with data path acceleration
P1024/P1015 single- and dual-core communications processors
P1025/P1016 single- and dual-core communications processors

P2 Platform - Up to 1.2 GHz, (less than8W Max.)
P2020 dual-core communications processor
P2040 quad-core communications processor with data path acceleration

P3 Platform - Up to 1.5 GHz, (less than 15W Max.)
P3041 quad-core communications processor

P4 Platform - Up to 1.5 GHz, (less than 30W Max.)
P4080 eight-core communications processor
P4040 quad-core communications processor

P5 Platform - Up to 2.2 GHz, (less than 30W Max.)
P5020 and P5010 single and dual core communications processor

I know I'm not a hardware engineer (massive understatement ) but it appears that multi-core Power CPUs have a healthy future if Freescale is anything to go by.

TrevorD


Nice PowerPC upgrade path, but AMD Llano APU (quad-core (K10.5 based), 4MB L2 cache, 400 stream processors) will beat them in multimedia/math workloads and price.

AMD Llano's the die size (i.e ~170mm^2 to 200mm^2) is about same size as Xbox 360 Slim's XCGPU (i.e. 169mm^2). Unlike today's PC designs, APU's GPU has a fast access to CPU's cache pool).

---

Anyway, there's the rumored Wii 2 i.e. 3 core PowerPC(PPE type) with AMD R700 type GPU (stronger than Xbox 360's Xenos GPU) console. Based on Xbox 360 Slim XCGPU die size(~169mm^2), the candiates AMD R700 GPU cores would be Radeon HD 4770 (RV740, 640 SP, ~137mm^2, updated 40nm process tech) or Radeon HD 4670.

RV740/RV770 has improved tesselation hardware e.g. stream-in/stream-out cache, but it doesn't follow DX11 model i.e. missing domain/hull shader registers (fastest data storage method) and it's not used in DX dominated PC.

Xenos GPU's tesselation/vertex ping-pong process uses it's eDRAM.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:31 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:26 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:16 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:13 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:09 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Apr-2011 at 08:58 PM.

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COBRA 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 22:25:36
#168 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@ferrels
Quote:
Are you saying that the X1000 provides alternative multimedia and multitasking capabilities not seen before?


I'm pretty sure that's not what I said. I said it can be an alternative computing solution, because it has the capability of replacing a PC in functionality (provided that all the necessary software will be available), but it also has something new (Xena/Xorro) that's not seen in other computing solutions today, something that can attract people from the geek/enthusiast sector. NatAmi is a cool geek toy, but it won't allow me to use it at home instead of a PC or a next-gen Amiga system because it just doesn't have the processing power for everyday computing and you're stuck with a 10+ year old OS3.9 at best.

Quote:
As for your last sentence, hope is not a plan. And we've seen no plans from Hyperion or Trevor. Just a couple demos and some vague release dates that get delayed and postings about 5 mysterious developer boards that some clown tried to pass off as a production run.


If you have a look at what I wrote, I said I hope both NatAmi and the X1000 will do equally well. Why is it that every time some facts are stated about one system or another some people get all defensive and start throwing mud at someone else's work? It's not like the NatAmi developers have a better business strategy... Both systems are targeting very small, specific markets and the people behind them are all Amiga enthusiasts investing all their resources into the projects and working very hard deliver as quickly as possible. Give them some respect, rather than calling them clowns...

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 23:33:22
#169 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@TrevorDick

The cheapest P4080(8 cores, 1.2 GHz) is 370 $ for 100 CPUs order... No prices for 4040(4 cores).


Geeeeezzz...


For that amount of money you can get s1366 Intel Core i7 950 3,06 GHz 8M 1333MHz.
No need to mention the "small" difference in performance as well.

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 23:45:40
#170 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
For that amount of money you can get s1366 Intel Core i7 950 3,06 GHz 8M 1333MHz.
No need to mention the "small" difference in performance as well.



Please, please, pretty please, do compare intel arch to ppc arch. I'll be standing by.

Thank you.

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 23:50:07
#171 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@Mechanic

Quote:

Mechanic wrote:
@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
For that amount of money you can get s1366 Intel Core i7 950 3,06 GHz 8M 1333MHz.
No need to mention the "small" difference in performance as well.



Please, please, pretty please, do compare intel arch to ppc arch. I'll be standing by.

Thank you.


I compared the price/performance and what do you get for your money...

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Rob 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 0:29:34
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5586
From: S.Wales

@eXec

Do you have the money to front a port to i7? If so I'll be a customer, otherwise I'll just have to go for the X1000 as planned.

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Spectre660 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 1:06:41
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3569
From: Unknown

@TrevorDick

I enjoyed the Freescale videos.

The greater need for network equipment as the "Cloud" grows ,the greater volume of these will produced.


Quote:
For everyone who is thinking that the Power architecture is a dead end after PA-Semi. Take a peek at the Freescale QorIQ Processing Platforms by Family.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 1:39:46
#174 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 688
From: Arizona

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@ferrels
Quote:
Are you saying that the X1000 provides alternative multimedia and multitasking capabilities not seen before?


I'm pretty sure that's not what I said. I said it can be an alternative computing solution, because it has the capability of replacing a PC in functionality (provided that all the necessary software will be available), but it also has something new (Xena/Xorro) that's not seen in other computing solutions today, something that can attract people from the geek/enthusiast sector. NatAmi is a cool geek toy, but it won't allow me to use it at home instead of a PC or a next-gen Amiga system because it just doesn't have the processing power for everyday computing and you're stuck with a 10+ year old OS3.9 at best.

Quote:
As for your last sentence, hope is not a plan. And we've seen no plans from Hyperion or Trevor. Just a couple demos and some vague release dates that get delayed and postings about 5 mysterious developer boards that some clown tried to pass off as a production run.


If you have a look at what I wrote, I said I hope both NatAmi and the X1000 will do equally well. Why is it that every time some facts are stated about one system or another some people get all defensive and start throwing mud at someone else's work? It's not like the NatAmi developers have a better business strategy... Both systems are targeting very small, specific markets and the people behind them are all Amiga enthusiasts investing all their resources into the projects and working very hard deliver as quickly as possible. Give them some respect, rather than calling them clowns...


The Natami isn't "stuck" with OS3.1/3.9. AROS 68K is being ported to the Natami and new extensions to OS 3.1/3.9 and AROS are being added to accommodate the new hardware, graphics modes, USB and network stack. I wish people would research the Natami a bit more before they spread such misinformation as you've done.

And the X1000 team will have to do a better job at promoting the X1000. Just because it's an alternative to the PCs out there doesn't mean it's better or more desirable.
And just because Xena/Xorro hasn't been seen in modern computing doesn't make it desirable or worth buying. The X1000 team nor Hyperion have even discussed specifically what benefits Xorro/Xena will provide or what features will be used with Xorro/Xena except to make some vague comments designed to appeal to the classic Amiga crowd who are still enamored with custom chip-sets and custom co-processors.

And you're right. The Natami team doesn't have a business strategy. And why should they? They're not trying to create a market or a business. They're developing a hobby system for hobbyists and they've said as much. Unlike, the X1000 team and Hyperion who ARE a business and who keep talking about all the new and mysterious things the X1000 will do on their ultra-expensive 7 year-old hardware and OS4+. The Natami team has my respect. They've set out to develop a successor to the A4000 and have succeeded. They've made no promises that they haven't kept, unlike others out there who will remain nameless. You should go the Natami site and do some more research instead of continuing to compare the Natami to an X1000 and trying to cast the Natami project as a business that is seeking to create or expand a market or compete with the X1000. Get off the marketing soap box. A real market for anything Amiga has long since passed. Even the X1000 is relegated to a hardcore group of hobbyists who won't mind spending $3K USD for it. The number of users/buyers will be absurdly small as will the number of applications developed for it. The same can be said of Natami except for its price which will be in the 500-700 Euro range. I doubt that either system will sell more than 200 units. I didn't call either dev team a bunch of clowns. The people who are the clowns are the ones who keep comparing the Natami to the X1000. These systems are directed at entirely different hobbyists and not comparable. The clowns are also the ones who continue to make references about creating or expanding a market for Amiga beyond the hobby scene that exists now. There will never be another Amiga "market" beyond the hobby scene we know at the moment. The real Amiga market died back in the 90s for those who haven't been paying attention. It will not re-emerge or rise from the ashes like some sort of Phoenix.

Last edited by ferrels on 17-Apr-2011 at 01:45 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 17-Apr-2011 at 01:44 AM.

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BobW 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 3:23:34
#175 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Apr-2004
Posts: 275
From: Central, NY USA

I'm soooo glad hazydave responded here. All of his posts in this thread should be stickied for future reference. It's nice to see a healthy dose of reality for a change.



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cheesegrate 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 6:34:21
#176 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2007
Posts: 259
From: Australia

@hazydave

Quote:
One of other top SW guys, Carsten Scholte, had started developing an Amiga-like OS on his own, and that eventually became CaOS. The OS was very much an updated AmigaOS-like OS... you'll find this has happened a bunch of times in the power-Commodore world (in fact, the multitasking OS that runs on the React and Sensor digital R/C controllers I developed at Nomadio run a very Amiga-like OS, designed by Scott Drysdale and Frank Sczerba). In fact, it was so Amiga-like, we were hiring Amiga developers to port their stuff. The "desktop" was again primarily via the browser, but it was Voyager... we funded the upgrade of V to a "version 4" class browser,,, there were even custom HTML tags for things like video overlay. The main UI was via MUI, etc. This was, in fact, the only thing I did at Metabox or anywhere else I'd claim is essentially Amiga-like as a whole.


So your team created an enhanced amigaos without the amigaos licence and yet you criticize the morphos team for doing the same? And some of the morphos team are those amiga devs you hired? please explain

Last edited by cheesegrate on 17-Apr-2011 at 06:36 AM.

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 7:11:38
#177 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
The cheapest P4080(8 cores, 1.2 GHz) is 370 $ for 100 CPUs order... No prices for 4040(4 cores).


Haven't we previously heard a price of $500 mentioned for the PA6T in the X1000? Which I believe was Trevor's point: These may be expensive compared to x86 CPU's, but for a future X-something from A-Eon they're quite reasonably priced.

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opi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 7:22:27
#178 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Rob

Quote:
Do you have the money to front a port to i7?


If I want to go to cinema should I build it first? This should be in Hyperion interest. If it's not then, well, good luck with expanding user base.

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drHirudo 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 7:55:36
#179 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1082
From: Sofia

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote:
@Rob

Quote:
Do you have the money to front a port to i7?


If I want to go to cinema should I build it first? This should be in Hyperion interest. If it's not then, well, good luck with expanding user base.

If there is no cinema in your city, then you shall build it first before able to watch a movie near to your place. Or you can go to another town that have built their own cinema, even if you don't like going to that town, because it is expensive for you. The cinema owners are not looking to built cinema in your city, because most of their potential customers are watching the movies at home.

As far as i know there is currently a cinema built in your city called AROS, but last time I looked at it, it was only several benches in a yard with a simple screen. No popcorn and no rain protection in that cinema. Not much people are attending it.

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Wizzard_o 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 8:32:50
#180 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Sep-2004
Posts: 687
From: UK, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Solar System, Alpha Quadrant, The Milky-Way, Universe. 1.1.1.3.44.HP

I love how the x86 fans chimed in agreeing with what Dave said, how predictable

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