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      /  Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
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eliyahu 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 14:27:38
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1728
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Fab

Quote:
Erm, well, 3D results are actually VERY disappointing, considering the different class of the 3d hardware. Gallium really does a bad job at using it properly.
And in general, all your examples just show the the raw power of the machine, not AROS itself. For instance, on AROS, MPlayer wastes a huge time in blitting frames, to the point it takes more time to blit than to decode, which is just WEIRD. :)

It would be funny to see how AROS compares on a ppc machine. Though we can already see it on 68k hardware, where it's visible it's substancially slower than OS3.x.

you beat me to it.

@fishy_fiz

i have tried every significant release of icaros desktop since 2010; i've also tested builds of AROS on my SAM. yes, AROS sometimes outperforms my pegasos2 -- but it should considering that i run it on hardware orders of magnitude faster. what stands out performance-wise is how slow it is compared to SUSE or even solaris on the same machines. when i play videos, games, or browse the web under AROS, all i can think is how much slower it is than the other operating environments on the same machine. it is glacial on my SAM, even worse on an amiga 600, shall i go on?

moreover there is less software available for it than the other two NG options, the GUI framework is much less developed, the community is much smaller, the OS is less polished, and everyone is going off in different directions. the only advantages AROS has is that it runs on much, much faster hardware than the other two and it's FOSS. but, in truth, the latter isn't really as advantageous as AROS enthusiasts suggest. it's been around longer than OS4 and MOS, and yet is much less developed in terms of its GUI, its OS3.x binary compatibility, its workbench replacement, etc.

AROS is a lovely thing to play with, but not really to use, at least for me. to borrow a phrase from jeremy clarkson, as something to have to live with on a daily basis, i'd rather have bird flu.

i know this is really biting criticism, but it's just my personal view. i know others that love it, so for them, terrific. no skin off my back. my original comment was intended to convey a sentiment that if someone want to run an environment that looks and feels like MOS, why not just MOS?

-- eliyahu

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Hammer 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 14:47:20
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@ChrisH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

Steve Jobs: Good artists copy great artists steal

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE U1 + MS Windows 10 Pro X64
Intel i7-4790K @ 4.5 Ghz, DDR3-2133 16GB RAM, MSI GeForce GTX 980 Ti Gaming

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 14:52:48
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1730
From: Australia

I absolutely agree. OS4 and MOS are more efficient and closer to thier full potential on the hardware theyre running.
This however doesnt effect end results. AROS is still in a different league when it comes to anything requiring raw grunt. Gaming, emulation, sound/audio work, compiling, gfx work, etc. are superior experiences on AROS regardless of how efficient/inefficient the system is.
This will only grow in time as OS4.x and MOS are much closer to pushing thier hardware to the full, whereas aros, despite being a lot faster in many areas will still noticably impove for some time yet.

I dont really care if a system is only using half the hardwares potential so long as the end results are still fast. It's using the system, and what it does/how it does it that are more interesting.

For a random example I can still run quake3 @ 1920x1080x32 full detail, anti aliasing enabled, and so on and so forth at over 100fps while rendering with lightwave running in the background, irc client running, msn client running, having browser open, and so on and so forth on a machine that cost less than a MOS license.

Something neither MOS, nor OS4.x can do, even when theyre making better use of thier hardware.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 02-Sep-2012 at 02:55 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 14:54:38
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1728
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@fishy_fis

Quote:
I can still run quake3 @ 1920x1080x32 full detail, anti aliasing enabled, and so on and so forth at over 100fps while rendering with lightwave running in the background, irc client running, msn client running, having browser open, and so on and so forth on a machine that cost less than a MOS license.

Something neither MOS, nor OS4.x can do, even when theyre making better use of thier hardware.

true. and that's probably the best argument i can think of for AROS; probably the one that should be stressed rather than the 'open source' line.

-- eliyahu

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Fab 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 15:11:03
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

Quote:

For a random example I can still run quake3 @ 1920x1080x32 full detail, anti aliasing enabled, and so on and so forth at over 100fps while rendering with lightwave running in the background, irc client running, msn client running, having browser open, and so on and so forth on a machine that cost less than a MOS license.


Well, running Quake3 at 1600x1200 at 50fs with all details on, while having irc, msn, mplayer playing some music, and Odyssey running... On a poor G4@1GHz with MorphOS... :)
I could also add some 3d rendering program at low pri, that wouldn't change a lot here...

I expect a bit more impressive examples. :)

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terminills 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 15:11:51
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1234
From: Unknown

@Fab


Gallium in mesa 8.1 is actually much improved over mesa 7.6 which aros includes. 8.1 compares very favorable to the binary blobs in many cases.

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Fab 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 15:25:11
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@terminills

That's good to hear. It can only improve, anyway ! ;)

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 16:59:15
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1164
From: Athens/Greece

@Fab

What GFX card are you using?

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 17:10:44
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1730
From: Australia

@Fab

Not sure what you want more. Over 200% framerate in quake 3 (and at a higher res/color depth) while doing a heck of a lot more (emulating an entire amiga faster than mos could ever hope to even if it was the only thing running), running a more advanced 3d subsystem (ie. better image quality and more effects for GL software(assuming they use something more than the very basic 3d mos has) all for less than the cost of a MOS license, and having plenty of reserves for improvement (whereas MOS doesnt)... no compromises needed with AROS, and you yourself admit some must be made on MOS to get less than half the results (for more money). There's nothing more annoying to me than having to scale back my use of a machine because its hardware doesnt stack up for what I want to do on it. I dont want to have to set low priorities, have the machine come to a crawl, close down something Im using so something else Im using can work how Id like and so on.

If you really want some numbers though (and these are toned way back to allow for weak pcs, real performance is often much higher).
1000%+ performance in UAE
1000%+ for Dosbox
1000%+ for Javascript (way more usually)
1000%+ for Audio Evolution (obviously depending on whats being done)
1000%+ memory bandwidth (heck even emulated 68k aros under x86 aros has more mem bandwidth than my POS 1.42ghz mac mini).
No actual figures, but decompressing to ram is much, much faster on AROS (as is anything compression related).

I could go on and on, but there's no need, my point is more than clear to anyone but the most ardent advocate of thier system of choice.

AROS doesnt stack up too bad really.
Cheaper, orders of magnitude faster, ability to do much the same stuff (often better).

Im sure some people here will be unable to grasp this concept, but end of the day OS4.x, MOS, and AROS are all on a pretty equal footing, for different reasons.

While I do like MOS its hardware makes it secondary to AROS to me. There's many things raw grunt does for a system that people might not think about. Very basic usage and I prefer MOS, but if I want to do something other than play with my desktop AROS is the only NG system that doesnt irritate me (others are simply too slow for a "modern" platform). Heck I cant even have a 720p video running at the same time as a UAE session without both giving me a lot of frame skipping on my crappy Mac Mini Mos machine.


Anyway, sorry about the off topic everyone, I just get sick of the same unbalanced, twisted/contorted stuff getting thrown about. Things arent black and white with "NG" systems and there's a lot more advantages to having modern hardware than framerates in a 10 year old game (or anything else Ive mentioned).
To be fair to Eliyahu though I think I mightve misinterpereted his initial reasons for comparing them (as he explained in his follow up post).

Ive now got all this out of my system, so feel free to argue amongst yourselves about NG amiga stuff.
Me? Im going to go and play on my a1200 'cos its a lot more fun than arguing pros and cons about systems that I only find interesting a few times a year.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 02-Sep-2012 at 05:17 PM.

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itix 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 18:59:54
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@fishy_fis

Quote:

running a more advanced 3d subsystem (ie. better image quality and more effects for GL software(assuming they use something more than the very basic 3d mos has)


Can you give names of some demos? I''ve got decent Lenovo at work where I installed Icaros desktop some months ago and would be cool to try some Gallium3D demos there.

Quote:

1000%+ memory bandwidth (heck even emulated 68k aros under x86 aros has more mem bandwidth than my POS 1.42ghz mac mini).


But my AROS harddisks are encrypted. That is 1000% more security than your AROS. Heck even emulated 68k AROS under x86 AROS has more security than your AROS.

Btw I dont think anyone here have problem with you advocating AROS. You could just give more sensible arguments than random numbers that dont make any sense.

Last edited by itix on 02-Sep-2012 at 07:11 PM.
Last edited by itix on 02-Sep-2012 at 07:09 PM.
Last edited by itix on 02-Sep-2012 at 07:08 PM.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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Arko 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 19:19:19
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Fab

Quote:

Fab wrote:


Erm, well, 3D results are actually VERY disappointing, considering the different class of the 3d hardware. Gallium really does a bad job at using it properly.


Currently there is more a problem to find some nice 3D game that would making sense aon AROS.

Quote:

For instance, on AROS, MPlayer wastes a huge time in blitting frames, to the point it takes more time to blit than to decode, which is just WEIRD. :)


I wish there where good working drivers for video overlay and I believe there are a lot of things on AROS GFX drivers that could be improved.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Franko 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 19:28:01
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@ Me

Seeing as how this thread has gone totally off topic not to mention off the rails... I would just like to say...

Today I invented Fire...

Not your normal fake fire that everyone else uses these days (you know 3D and all that nonsense) no siree, this is my own copyrighted fire (patent pending) in good old fashioned 2D and monochrome for the hard of hearing...

So beware if your going to set fire to something or someone, that you don't attempt to imitate or copy my 2D monochrome fire, otherwise I'll be forced to go all Apple on you and sue then start crazy threads like this one...

PS: Has anyone invented water yet so that I can put out the flames engulfing me house... (Dang... I should've asked ChrisH if I could borrow his flame proof suit first)...

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terminills 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 19:29:41
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1234
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Funny I find my Acer AspireOne netbook to feel much faster than MorphOS on my 1.25 Ghz Emac. If we want to compare web browsing scrolling on morphos is faster... css compiling/ displaying is much faster on AROS since it has the advantage of the jit engine. To be honest really I don't find Morphos compelling enough to justify the space the emac took up so I gave it away. As far as AOS4 goes I can't compare because I can't justify the costs involved.

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eliyahu 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 19:59:42
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1728
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@terminills

Quote:
Funny I find my Acer AspireOne netbook to feel much faster than MorphOS on my 1.25 Ghz Emac. If we want to compare web browsing scrolling on morphos is faster... css compiling/ displaying is much faster on AROS since it has the advantage of the jit engine. To be honest really I don't find Morphos compelling enough to justify the space the emac took up so I gave it away. As far as AOS4 goes I can't compare because I can't justify the costs involved.

really? hmmm. maybe i have some settings wrong somewhere as that certainly hasn't been my experience. i assume the odyssey build included with icaros is the lastest build?

or maybe it could be my graphics cards? is there a page somewhere i can look up compatible graphics cards and/or any config tweaking one should attempt? i've run AROS on some pretty big boxes, so if your notebook is showing better performance, i must be doing something wrong.

sounds like i need to go visit aros-exec.org.

edit: woo-hoo! this was my 1000th post!

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 02-Sep-2012 at 08:00 PM.
Last edited by eliyahu on 02-Sep-2012 at 07:59 PM.

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recedent 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 20:09:50
#75 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 193
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Yes they would be disppointed because they think Annotate runs on MOS and it does not


(Un?)Fortunately it does :)

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serk118 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 20:23:17
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 672
From: London(uk)

love your comments @Franko

people with coding skills go and do some coding.
gfx experts go do some painting/drawing/etc..
sound engineers go make some noise.

and do it on your own favorite os = Amiga68k/Aros/Os4/Mos

stop comparing and see what you can do to get one them os'es to see the day light again..

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nikosidis 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 20:41:50
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 586
From: Norway, Oslo

From my point of view it does not matter how much better AROS gets. There are simply no way AmigaOS or MorphOS users would change platform even if a few play with all of them.
The first and foremost reason is that this is a hobby platform. There is simply no way to keep up with other operative systems.

In the end we are talking about a OS. Something that should first of allcontroll your hardware. No other than Amigaworld fanatics would ever use it, unless something dramatic change. AROS is trying to controll all kind of hardware, from i386, 68k ppc, you name it. Seams like this is whats been focused on from many developers. They just want AROS to boot on whatever CPU and then what ? AROS on SAM, what is the point ? I just don't get it. For me it is a waste of time, but this is how it works, AROS is a free project and people do what they want to do. In many ways AROS development have stalled. So there you have it. Most likely another wasted OS project. If Amiga or Amigalike OS don't get memory protection (yes, i know this most likely means start all over) it is a dead end. It is just stupid OS without it.

Last edited by nikosidis on 02-Sep-2012 at 08:47 PM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 21:14:09
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@nikosidis

Quote:
f Amiga or Amigalike OS don't get memory protection (yes, i know this most likely means start all over) it is a dead end. It is just stupid OS without it.



That's why I like Syllable... and it's a crying shame it hasn't attracted more devs...

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resle 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 21:15:47
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 483
From: shanghai

3...

2...

1...

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A1200 
Re: Why MOS/OS4 theme on AROS/OS4/MOS is a bad idea & illegal
Posted on 2-Sep-2012 21:26:40
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 2872
From: Westhall, UK

ChrisH is back to his normal fanboi self - I thought things were running along smoothly for too long. The reason I was opposed to him being a mod is demonstrated by starting posts like this.

Sorry if I have written this in the same typeface as you Chris, I hope you won't sue me!

Edit: Hey, he isn't a mod anymore.... what did I miss? Good job IMO!

Last edited by A1200 on 02-Sep-2012 at 09:28 PM.

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