@Hondo

No, I dont think Linux should power AOS. I think they should use FreeBSD. Why? Because with Apples association with the BSD teams, BSD has much better support for the PowerPC platform. PowerPC is still a supported platform for the BSD team, where in the Linux world PPC support is a second class citizen, the consensus is if it works fine, great. if it doesnt work, we could really care less. Plus on the PowerPC side you just need to support select hardware devices, you dont have the breadth of choice, hardware wise, so your TTM will be much shorter than using Linux. Now, if you want to go x86, using Linux would be the optimal choice since most computer buyers very simply want to walk into Wal-Mart or Tiger Direct, buy a computer and get on the net and use all kinds of weird and mix and match hardware so with Linux you have a great commodity OS. Since Trevor just signed a 1.2 million dollar investment, I think he is stuck on PPC for awhile and not going to x86 or ARM.

But, Whichever you use FreeBSD or Linux, it will surely be much better than what they have now. Plus, they could actually view and modify their own kernel.

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http://www.pc-opensystems.com

There's both pros and cons when it comes to using the linux kernel in my opinion, but as time goes by and the amiga-oid systems mature there's less reasons to do so.
While on the surface it may appear an easy inroad to things like smp and memory protection the reality is that most things will need redoing to take advantage, even at an api level.

Ultimately the question becomes which route brings the most benefit more quickly, enhancing the current kernels, or reworking a foreign kernel and existing user land space.
Arguments can be made for both, but given that neither are small jobs I probably favor the option that makes the current work least redundant :enhancing amiga-oid system kernels.
The exception being if a new amiga based system arrives, but that'd take so long that by the time its a useful system the current options will have probably acquired the features that inspired a kernel change un the 1st place

@fishy_fis

No ones saying its an easy inroad. Its not, when you transition from one kernel to another there is always WORK involved. So if someone is looking for an easy road, unfortunately there is none to be had. When you make a transition like this you have to look at a few variables. 1. Financial, whats the cost look like and is it cost effective to do this. You also have to look at the costs of not doing anything. 2. What do you gain? You weigh the pros and cons, what do you get and what do you lose. 3. community support. zealotry will always play a part when people feel fine with the status quo and then you suddenly rip it out from under them but you will lose some users who dont understand, or dont want to understand the path you are taking.

Despite the banquet panel, I think the consensus is that no one from the AmigaOS development team really wants to do anything. They are happy with the status quo and they are happy with their small segment of hobbyist computing. So these discussions may seem like a good idea, but without the support of the development team and their unwillingness to review ideas presented, all we are talking about is pie in the sky.

It may seem like Im being a little down, but this is the reality that the community is stuck with and like I said earlier. If attitudes dont change AmigaOS will continue to be a platform for the small segment of developers that it is now.

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http://www.pc-opensystems.com

@RobertJDohnert

Quote:

No, I dont think Linux should power AOS. I think they should use FreeBSD.

I would prefer NetBSD over FreeBSD, for the simple reason that it is a smaller, leaner system. There is an inverse relationship between the size of an operating system and its "Amiganess."

But I've nothing against using Linux, so long as the system built on it it sufficiently lean.

Last edited by bison on 22-Oct-2013 at 07:51 PM.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@RobertJDohnert

Quote:

As for the "Amiga" owners, I have no problems with the owners at all, just a licensee who has no rights to begin with,

If a licensee had "no rights", as you claim, nobody would become one and pay a licensor for a license since they would get absolutely nothing in return.

Quote:

you cant get a copyright, because someone else already owns the copyright

Intellectual property is being sold and bought everyday.

Quote:

you cant get a trademark because of prior art

Once again, you show a great level of confusion regarding legal matters. "Prior art" is related to patent law which is fundamentally different than trademark law.

Quote:

furthermore and in closing, someone posted earlier that I tried to deceive the community. Nope, never happened. Never once have I ever tried to trick people into thinking OS/4 OpenLinux was more than just a great desktop linux distribution.

What you did was the equivalent of promoting a car named "Chevrolet Ferrari 5000" that features a highly visible horse emblem on its hood. When people pointed out that it is extremely misleading to put a horse logo on a car and use "Ferrari" as part of the name even though there is absolutely no relation to the iconic car maker in Italy, you argue that you alway said it was a Chevrolet so you could not have done anything wrong.

Well, if you are so confident that you did the right thing, may I suggest that you announce a distribution called "OS/4 Android Linux" with a green robot logo next?

Last edited by ASiegel on 23-Oct-2013 at 06:05 AM.

@ASiegel

Quote:

If a licensee had "no rights", as you claim, nobody would become one and pay a licensor for a license since they would get absolutely nothing in return.

Very simple, they pay to put the name on a product. no more and no less.

Quote:

Intellectual property is being sold and bought everyday.

And the copyright owner who I have contacted personally has not given away any rights to the "boing ball"

Quote:

Once again, you show a great level of confusion regarding legal matters. "Prior art" is related to patent law which is fundamentally different than trademark law.

Actually, no I dont. You cannot own a trademark on a generic form, that is something non-distinctive, you cannot protect marks that are confusingly similar to previously existing trademarks, hence prior art. You cannot protect marks that have been abandoned and the "boing ball" has been abandoned. either way Im willing to go before a judge and test the validity of this mark, are you?


Quote:

What you did was the equivalent of promoting a car named "Chevrolet Ferrari 5000" that features a highly visible horse emblem on its hood. When people pointed out that it is extremely misleading to put a horse logo on a car and use "Ferrari" as part of the name even though there is absolutely no relation to the iconic car maker in Italy, you argue that you alway said it was a Chevrolet so you could not have done anything wrong.

Actually no I didnt, and I used a mark that was clearly distinctive, we actually fed it through the Owners first before we even used it and they agreed it was distinctive and did not mimic any art or graphic that was in use by them or any of their licensee's. It is your first post and you are probably just posting on behalf of friends or led by blind zealotry, I'll forgive your ignorance on these matter's. since you dont work for me nor have we talked about it you get a pass.

Quote:

Well, if you are so confident that you did the right thing, may I suggest that you announce a distribution called "OS/4 Android Linux"

First of all, that naming scheme SUCKS. Second of all, you are just being silly. I know of a few people who were hoping your presence on this forum was going to produce something useful. I guess they were wrong.

Quote:

green robot logo next?

Once again, not my cup of tea. If you actually know anyone in Google's android team, ask them what my opinion of that logo is. We are in polite company here so I wont say.

If you do have something actually useful feel free to e-mail me and if you dont and want to continue being ridiculous, I guess just post in the forums.

Welcome BTW.

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http://www.pc-opensystems.com

@bison

Now to stay on topic here,

Does NetBSD have the same driver support that FreeBSD has? I still think for the PPC side of things FreeBSD would be the way to go.

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http://www.pc-opensystems.com

@RobertJDohnert

It's great you tell the stuff as you see it, and are completely honest. Your idea of FreeBSD is also exciting stuff, and I even belive my friend i discussed this with, mentioned FreeBSD as something very much worth looking into.

I would love to hear some oppinion from the AOS team regarding these matters, but of course I don't expect them to discuss the future of their operating system on an open forum like this. Nevertheless it could be good to hear their say on the stuff. Trevor, Ben, Steve, Matt, etc.

Having a good discussion with skilled developers is innocent, and could lead to many good ideas for the future.

So thank you Robert for coming out clean and honest with your best intentions, and oh almost forgot to mention....your knowledge.

Thank you

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

I would recommend you to look at arix in about 25 days it might be pretty interesting

http://www.arixfoundation.com/

of course it is not "AmigaOS" but the chance to see AmigaOS on a different platform is pretty small (or better not-existing). That there are no plans in this direction is pretty obvious, otherwise Trevor would not invest so much money in new PPC hardware. And new modern things like SMP are not possible without breaking 68k compatibility. So either you live with what is there or you look at the existing alternatives.

@Hondo

Sounds like you're holding too much stock in both your friend and Roberts opinions. There's many other people who are equally, or more knowledgable in these matters. I guess its easy to believe others if a persons own knowledge has gaps.

I don't mean this as an insult to anyone though, so please dont take it as such.
Personally though Id find the opinion of someone like MichaelSc of interest given the volume, and type of work they've contributed (if you're not aware he development the AROS kernel, enhanced it for x86-64/ppc, did the efika and sam440 and x86-64 ports, wrote original nvidia and intel gfx drivers, and a bunch of other stuff, giving him good, hands on insight.

@RobertJDohnert

Quote:

RobertJDohnert wrote: Why? Because with Apples association with the BSD teams, BSD has much better support for the PowerPC platform.

Best thing on BSD is IMHO the BSD licence. You can take a BSD kernel, change everything you need and doesn’t have any duty to open the changes to the public.

---

But people like Hondo are waiting for an official statement of the AOS4 developers and they will wait forever.

It makes me shouting:
“Wakeup Hondo! The AOS4 developers don't discuss their decisions in public, AOS4 is their property, and users are free to take it or leave it.”

----

Talking about Amithlon:

Today we can use UAE on nearly every x86 hardware. UAE can be used with P96 drivers giving AOS a fast access to modern GFX cards, nealy every thing that was programmed natively under Amithlon is available natively under UAE now.

Today there are no more reasons crying for Amithlon.

AROS 68k integrated into an UAE might run circles around AOS4 on Sam440 but the 68k Amiga has software problem too.

Most 68k games, that where published by hobby programmers in the last years, are written for the ECS/AGA chipset. Emulating this chipset eats up a lot of time on UAE.

There is a lack of development for RTG/AHI capable software on 68k AOS, that’s a pity because it would run faster on UAE than any ECS/AGA software.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@fishy_fis

I get your points - and I'm not interested in anything ABSOLUTE - but just to have a seriously good discussion with you guys - because my friend was so hard to discuss with (because he is tecnically much better than me) - that's why I choose to ask wheter is was right or not.

He did mention both Linux and FreeBSD as obvious routes for AmigaOS (at the time around year 2000) - and I just find it very interesting to hear different peoples oppinions. Especially if they are knowledgable and very skilled.

I'm not personally very knowledable about these things, and that's why I actually had to draw you guys in, because my friend said something which I couldn't respond properly to, because of lack of knowledge about the many reasons why AOS didn't take that approach he hinted at.
and lack of knowledge wheter one way or the other was the best direction.

I just hope many good developers will come in this thread and give their views and oppinions on the best future for AmigaOS

Nothing bad can come out of it if people act polite and forgiving of all past decisions, etc.

Maybe someone special will show up and reveal something not priorly known etc.

Let the good discussion continue I say

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

if you are interested in that route look at arix in about 25 days (when it gets public)

@Hondo

Quote:

Hondo wrote: I just hope many good developers will come in this thread and give their views and oppinions on the best future for AmigaOS

People like you Hondo are waiting for an official statement of the AOS4 developers (and not for developers on other systems) and you will wait forever.

It makes me shouting:
“Wakeup Hondo! The AOS4 developers don't discuss their decisions in public, AOS4 is their property, and users are free to take it or leave it.”

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@OlafS25

I will certainly look into Arix - and would even cheer for it as the new default AmigaOS if it's precisely what should have been done to AOS. (no offence meant to AOS) You can count on that. But I would of course rather have the name AmigaOS instead of Arix - call me a namefollower but I don't think it's bad to hang on to a name. After all that's how you develop a brand. And the name Amiga is old and still rather popular.

But again all of this doesn't matter because I don't have a clue about Hyperion's plans. So even if I saw that Arix is brilliant and a work of genius, it still wouldn't include the name, and I still didn't have a sense of direction about the future of hyperions plans.

I hope the best for all camps with an amiga heritage - but my "camp" is called AmigaOS, and I will support it untill it's really out of the question to support it any further. And too much good development is going on with AOS to say that the time has come to throw in the towel, and switch to another system.

But I think it's good to have an open discussion like this one

_________________
On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

Hypothetical question:

If someone took over the running of Hyperion and then announced that ARIX will from now on be the official AmigaOS and OS4 no longer had the right to the name, would you support that?

That's an open question, it's not just to Hondo.

@Arko

You are wrong Arko - I'm not here trying to only discuss OS4 - I actually like when other devs tell their views too. Like RobertJDohnert, etc.

I support AOS - but my true concern is the WHOLE amiga scene in general, which deserves the best solutions for the future. I hope the AmigaOS will become the flagship of that future, but if it ends up with AROS or MOS or some other system taking that place, then I will stand behind that when it happens. But AmigaOS right now is strong and vibrant, so I will stay untill I don't trust them anymore. That's not the case atm.

But I think you're right that OS4 devs don't discuss in public, and thats a shame (unless of course there are legal reasons, investments, etc, then it's absolutely OK not to participate in such discussions on an open fora.

But for the fun of it they should throw in their 2 cents

_________________
On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@IntuitionAmiga

You are on a dangerous field on that

Personal I would of course have no problem but I assume parts of the AmigOS community would have. I cannot imagine Ben H. selling his investment.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Oct-2013 at 01:05 PM.

@IntuitionAmiga

Yes I would support that - unless the new system was a BIG step backwards. (EDIT - NEW ANSWER further down the thread)

But I would of course rather have the name AmigaOS being used, so please make sure you get the name if you take over it all

Last edited by Hondo on 23-Oct-2013 at 01:18 PM.

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God

@Hondo

I know that the "heritage" is important for some, expecially those supporting AmigaOS. Regarding discussions with Ben H. or the Frieden Brothers is difficult. The threads mostly get out of control. They could at least publish more informations on their blog but obviously are not interested.