@KimmoK

Since I'm not very humble in this question, I'll allow myself to say it:

I think you need brain surgery if you want to use AGA++ AND the DIU at the same time. What exactly is it you think you get out of a 2D framebuffer on-chip that you don't get out of a 2D framebuffer + 3D shaders and video scalers off-chip?

Also, it should be DEAD easy to be better in practical use than both an ATI GPU AND the DIU using an FPGA, simply because you would have infinity-1 times tighter integration of GPU and drivers. Need a new function? Make it.

Hard to compete with on-chip on the cost side, though. Allthough since we haven't really explored the solution space for the FPGA (family, size, speed etc) it's hard to say how much you're saving. The smallest S6 LXT might very well be up to it and the FPGA + "CHIP" RAM there should be below 30EUR total (x2 PCIe 1.0, but still). The smallest Artix is about 4 times as big (in most respects, like PCIe bandwidth, gate count etc), but only twice the price. I feel that this should be worth it. But of course, making this as a PCIe card for ALL NG platforms would make a lot of sense.

With a sensible amount of layers, PCB space isn't actually that costly. I don't see a single reason to go for miniITX over microATX. miniPCIe is a hassle in real life.

Since I'm a hardware tinkerer, point 8 there is a given

Edit:
I might add that I'm a bit partial to the modular approach, 2 x4 PCIe slots on a main board, SB with 3-5 x1 PCIe slots on a daughter card (no need to design it for breakout cable use, as the case modding business has already handled all those obstacles for us with their weird cable and card based risers), graphics card as the second daughter board. In this scenario, you would get your DIU also. But no SATA (when you can boot from an SDXC and you can sell the OS installation media as a USB stick, who the heck needs SATA anyway?)

Edit2: Now I got why you needed to design the second PCIe slot using cables, you wanted miniITX Ok, I'll think more about that while working on something useful. In someones interpretation of the word useful.

Edit3: Maybe that can be solved quite easy. 3x mPCIe + 1x SATA. 4 SATA cables and 3 mPCIe to SATA header adapters would bring you over to the SB busboard without TOO much hassle (not saying NO hassle, just hopefully not too much). Then you have an option of using serdex muxing 00, 06 or 08. (SATA cables might not be the best option here, though).

Alternative busboards for getting 1 x4 or 1-3 x1 PCIe slots without the SB would of course also be easy to make.

Actually think you're on to something with that one. But the bus boards would need to be available at the same time as the motherboard.

Last edited by olegil on 20-Feb-2014 at 11:14 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 20-Feb-2014 at 11:12 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 20-Feb-2014 at 11:03 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 20-Feb-2014 at 11:00 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

>I think you need brain surgery if you want to use AGA++ AND the DIU at the same time.

Aaargh, my pills are not working !

>What exactly is it you think you get out of a 2D framebuffer on-chip that you don't get out of a 2D framebuffer + 3D shaders and video scalers off-chip?

Just considering if FPGA would help graphics output from DIU, if the AGA++ would not have it’s own connector.
(but I’m not going to push this idea, just thinking…)

>Also, it should be DEAD easy to be better in practical use than both an ATI GPU AND the DIU using an FPGA, simply because you would have infinity-1 times tighter integration of GPU and drivers. Need a new function? Make it.

You have better pills?

But, you have sold me the idea of exploring the AGA++ idea.
It would definitely have high coolness factor (and it might prove usable in embedded PPC space?).

>…But of course, making this as a PCIe card for ALL NG platforms would make a lot of sense.

So, it’ll be in consideration.

>With a sensible amount of layers, PCB space isn't actually that costly. I don't see a single reason to go for miniITX over microATX. miniPCIe is a hassle in real life.

Ok. Calculations at later time.

>… who the heck needs SATA anyway..

YIKES!!!
Well, I would put it on the PCIe card then…

>Edit2: Now I got why you needed to design the second PCIe slot using cables, you wanted miniITX Ok, I'll think more about that while working on something useful. In someones interpretation of the word useful.
…



here the .NET is trying to kill me ...

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

About the SATA thing you deliberately misquoted me.

You can have EITHER two x4 slots, OR a x4 slot and some x1 slots and some SATA. You cannot have BOTH. So EITHER you do a modular design with two x4 slots, or you do a design with SATA.

Or you combine the ideas like I did in edit3. Same basic idea as the eGPU systems out there, for instance the PE4L-PM: http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4L%20V2.1.html

I think I need some graphical help visualising this idea, as I'm a PCB designer, not an artist. But there would be a x16 (4 active lanes) on the motherboard, 3 mPCIe sockets (1 of which can do SATA with an adapter board), 1 mPCIe which actually ISN'T mPCIe, just SATA + USB (comes with same SATA adapter also).

Available bundles:
AGA++, x4 PCIe
SB600/7x0 board with USB/SATA/PATA/etc, x4 PCIe
4 mPCIe adapter boards cabled to a x4 slot
3 mPCIe adapter boards cabled to 3 x1 slots (use 1, 2 or 3 as you wish).

I'm actually ready to start designing the latter 4 items, I don't have the T10x2 datasheet yet (have NDA, but haven't requested anything that isn't directly useful for my employer yet).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Edit:
The trick here is to get the mounting holes on those extra slot-boards as per ATX/microATX and flexATX standard. Will require some peg legs to stand on in addition to the mounting holes, and might need to "hold on" to the motherboard edge, which should be fine and dandy, really.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

>I think I need some graphical help visualising this idea, as I'm a PCB designer, not an artist.

I'm not an artist either, but at times I draw alot.
(I should try to power up my sam during weekend and "sketchblock" my understanding of the thing)

>But there would be a x16 (4 active lanes) on the motherboard, 3 mPCIe sockets (1 of which can do SATA with an adapter board), 1 mPCIe which actually ISN'T mPCIe, just SATA + USB (comes with same SATA adapter also).

Sounds doable, need to absorb a while...

>Available bundles:
>AGA++, x4 PCIe
Hmmm.... "AmigaSD64" is the name reserved?
>SB600/7x0 board with USB/SATA/PATA/etc, x4 PCIe
>4 mPCIe adapter boards cabled to a x4 slot
>3 mPCIe adapter boards cabled to 3 x1 slots (use 1, 2 or 3 as you wish).

And the main board would be small (flex or micro, if not miniITX).
With DIU & DVI out?
I think T1022 should have SSI/I2S, so do we have audio or even HDMI as standard?

((the board without those bundles: "Cc64" ? -Community designed 64bit Computer (simple like CBM64)))

>I'm actually ready to start designing the latter 4 items, I don't have the T10x2 datasheet yet (have NDA, but haven't requested anything that isn't directly useful for my employer yet).

I must get some "plan" summed up during weekend, otherwise the community is free to kick my *rse.
I'll B back ...

hey, look, some silly just reserved " http://www.amigahw.net "

UPDATE:
-Feel the kick... heh. Managed to clean my home office enoug to fire up my hobby systems, but the summary/plan... LE: tuesday night.
(months of rest has done good for my SAM or some AOS4 update did it ... not able to crash this too easily ... and VRAM ... lasts a lot longer than before... )

Last edited by KimmoK on 23-Feb-2014 at 10:15 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 23-Feb-2014 at 10:12 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-Feb-2014 at 08:32 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

T1022 has no I2S as far as I know. There's a bit of quiccengine there, which might be rewritten to support I2S, but that's gonna cost you some serious money.

It is certainly POSSIBLE to use the DIU as the display even when using the external FPGA, by copying back or maybe even pointing the DIU framebuffer directly to PCIe memory. But I'm gonna seriously insist that you don't want to be seen putting your eggs in that basket.

On the other hand, including a DVI/HDMI transmitter chip (and maybe a DAC for analog MxyzptlkVGA++ (placeholder for whatever name the industry has come up with for their latest screen resolution)) can't be THAT big a deal, so why not. Put one on there

With only one PCIe slot, we're obviously talking about miniITX for the main board.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.