@KimmoK

Quote:

So, even when they were in same gatecory, they got "unfair" advantage of the limited HW?

Not maybe an unfair advantage, but they sure had an advantage.

Quote:

I've also read reviews how Amiga demos just were designed better, rather than brainless technical effect after another.

Yes, back in the early 90's. Things change.

Quote:

So. IMHO. Winning demo competition with NG system is possible.

In theory yes, but that remains to be seen. Maybe you should try it?

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Britelite >Making good stuff on the C64 or classic Amigas is impressive, because you actually need to know the hardware and make use of it. >But when moving on to NG Amigas, there's NOTHING AT ALL that sets them apart from a PC, which is why doing stuff on them isn't really that impressive. And especially now in 2014, they NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU power compared to any other machine available, which makes stuff look even more unimpressive by comparison. But when NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU, people need to know the hardware and make use of it etc?

Not really. Sure Altivec optimizations and assembly knowledge can help but given a good compiler and competent coder one can get very close to super-optimized assembly. I say this as a fan of assembly coding.

It comes down to this: if a GPU is used for rendering - then the platform is like an old PC with bad drivers. If not then doing software rendering uses similar techniques as on a PC.

But the PC is inexpensive and widely used.

@Overflow

Quote:

A fair chunk of the active posters on this forum either owns a NG machine or have a positive attitude towards the efforts of Aeon/hyperion (regardless of what you might think of the chosen hardware platform, which is a whole different discussion).

Sure, I've been using NG machines (MorphOS-based) for over 10 years now. And I actually support AOS4/MorphOS in a few of my demos.

Quote:

I wouldnt mind seeing NG demos by skilled coders like yourselves, but I do understand your argument that NG falls between two chairs

Exactly, there's a reason NG Amigas don't seem to be attractive even to the current Amiga democoders. And the NG Amiga is not going to get any new democoders from outside the Amiga userbase, because it doesn't look attractive as a modern demomachine.

@Britelite

Quote:

Exactly, there's a reason NG Amigas don't seem to be attractive even to the current Amiga democoders. And the NG Amiga is not going to get any new democoders from outside the Amiga userbase, because it doesn't look attractive as a modern demomachine.

.

Except for Crisot who has already made 3 demos specifically for AmigaOS 4.1, using Warp3D routines written and optimized by himself.

_________________
PowerMac G5 2,7Ghz - 2GB - Radeon 9650 - MorphOS 3.14
AmigaONE X1000, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700
FPGA Replay + DB 68060 at 85Mhz

@K-L

Ah, I remember seeing one of those a while back. Had completely forgotten it. Its pretty damn nice looking and sounding. Time to google it down and rewatch ^^

EDIT; quite impressive for 5 days of solowork!

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62274

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TO6ZscPsEw

http://www.os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/scene/universe/universe-thetrip.lha

https://www.youtube.com/user/soenarc/videos

Last edited by Overflow on 29-Apr-2014 at 11:05 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Apr-2014 at 11:04 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Apr-2014 at 11:03 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Apr-2014 at 11:02 AM.

@K-L

Quote:

Except for Crisot who has already made 3 demos specifically for AmigaOS 4.1, using Warp3D routines written and optimized by himself.

Sure, there are always exceptions. Madwizards also made a few demos for MorphOS. And there's been some ports and some AOS4/MorphOS-compatible 68k-demos.

@Britelite

As every thing is happening in FAST mem, does it matter ifs AGA or RTG is displayed on, way not make it a option.

DEMO -vo AGA
DEMO -vo RTG

should not be too hard should it?

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

As every thing is happening in FAST mem, does it matter ifs AGA or RTG is displayed on, way not make it a option.

Sure, some of my demos actually do support this.

But there are cases where this is not an option, for example if you switch between different c2p's during the demo (different resolutions or for doing some special case stuff inside the c2p).

Quote:

should not be too hard should it?

Not necessarily hard, but most of the time it's work for very little benefit.

EDIT: Also, with AGA you know you have a 50hz display in PAL, which is a great benefit.

Last edited by Britelite on 29-Apr-2014 at 12:58 PM.

@Britelite

Quote:

Sure, some of my demos actually do support this.

Do you remember any names of some demos that support it?

Quote:

But there are cases where this is not an option, for example if you switch between different c2p's during the demo (different resolutions or for doing some special case stuff inside the c2p).

but you don't need c2p when you use RTG, just buffer you use WritePixelArray() to get into GFX memory and thats it, 8bit RTG modes are the same as your RAW format.

Quote:

Not necessarily hard, but most of the time it's work for very little benefit.

The benefit is that I and all NG users can accusal look at your beautiful demos, whit out AGA emulation
besides there are many who has Graphic cards on classic Amiga also.

Quote:

EDIT: Also, with AGA you know you have a 50hz display in PAL, which is a great benefit.

True but its fixed by using double / tripple buffering, if you are thinking about WaitTOF().

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Apr-2014 at 05:58 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Do you remember any names of some demos that support it?

I do remember, considering I made them ;)

Here's a few:
Swansong by Dekadence
Chaotic by Dekadence
Kioea by Madwizards
Metropolice by Ghostown+RNO

Quote:

but you don't need c2p when you use RTG, just buffer you use WritePixelArray() to get into GFX memory and thats it, 8bit RTG modes are the same as your RAW format.

What I meant that parts of the effect might be embedded in the c2p code, so it's not trivial to make it work with RTG.

Quote:

The benefit is that I and all NG users can accusal look at your beautiful demos, whit out AGA emulation

RTG alone doesn't make a demo NG compatible, though.

Quote:

besides there are many who has Graphic cards on classic Amiga also.

Sure, but they also have AGA ;)

Quote:

True but its fixed by using double / tripple buffering.

Not if you want stuff synced to the 50hz vblank, which can make a lot of stuff seem smoother in action.

@Britelite

Wonderful stuff Britelite, seen them all before but watch them fairly often when I visit Pouet.net. Respect to you for what you have achieved.

Q!

"i am home"

@Britelite

Quote:

Exactly, there's a reason NG Amigas don't seem to be attractive even to the current Amiga democoders.

Actually I think the platform itself might be attractive, if you want to keep your development environment more "amigaish", but want faster compile times, ability to use internet properly on the same system, want more portable system (Mac Mini, PowerBook...).

I think kiero said that at least some of their demos were mostly developed on MorphOS system, and later just finetuned so they "don't run too slow on real 68k compomachine".

Of course there's a big difference between development and target system.

And about restrictions that classic Amigas bring (and NG systems would aswell), even if somewhat "artificial", you can introduce them to PC demos aswell. I remember some years back in Assembly there was (I think 64k intro?) that was using own custom software rasterizer. Of course quality-wise it wasn't up to what OpenGL / DirectX demos looked like, and had to use precious binary size for own routines (OpenGL and DirectX are external libraries). I found it rather "refreshing". Don't think it did too well in the compo, but didn't lose either.

Also, there are still textmode demos too.

Last edited by Jupp3 on 01-May-2014 at 03:37 PM.

@Jupp3

Quote:

Actually I think the platform itself might be attractive, if you want to keep your development environment more "amigaish", but want faster compile times, ability to use internet properly on the same system, want more portable system (Mac Mini, PowerBook...).

Well, looking at the amount of demos for NG Amigas, we can pretty safely say that it's not attractive to amiga democoders as a demo platform ;)

Quote:

Of course there's a big difference between development and target system.

Exactly, just because I develop most of my demos on a Windows PC doesn't make me want to code Windows demos :)

Quote:

And about restrictions that classic Amigas bring (and NG systems would aswell), even if somewhat "artificial", you can introduce them to PC demos aswell.

Sure you can, but if you want artificial limitations you can as well code the demos for the PC and get a wider audience.

Like I said, I think the amount of demos for NG Amigas speaks for itself. And I don't think the situation is going to change.

@Britelite

Quote:

Well, looking at the amount of demos for NG Amigas, we can pretty safely say that it's not attractive to amiga democoders as a demo platform ;)

But from amount of nagging from forum users we can say there is interest from Amigans
unless you only make demos for you self that is.

Quote:

Exactly, just because I develop most of my demos on a Windows PC doesn't make me want to code Windows demos :)

No one says you most create OpenGL demos or anything like that.

Quote:

Like I said, I think the amount of demos for NG Amigas speaks for itself. And I don't think the situation is going to change.

You are really grate you should make some demos for NG, then there will be more

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But from amount of nagging from forum users we can say there is interest from Amigans unless you only make demos for you self that is.

Yes, there's people nagging for demos on forums, but no one seems to be interested in actually doing something themselves.

Quote:

You are really grate you should make some demos for NG, then there will be more

I've already made some of my demos NG compatible, but that's as far as I want to go.

@Britelite

Quote:

Yes, there's people nagging for demos on forums, but no one seems to be interested in actually doing something themselves.

I like too but don't think I have the time to do it, but I happy to help out making demos run if any one is interested in there demos ported over to AmigaOS4 (or make demos run whit out crashing.).

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2014 at 06:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2014 at 06:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2014 at 06:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2014 at 06:08 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@Britelite

I wouldnt say nagging (not for my own sake atleast).

I enjoy watching demos regardless of platform, but understand completely xyz platform doesnt inspire for zyz reason.

Im sure LFTKryo could make amazing demos on NG systems, but at the same time I love his Chipophone and creative approach to hardware and software.

But noone is nagging anyone to do anything they dont find intresting/enjoyable (unless they are paid)