@Chain-Q and Crumb

Thanks for explanting to me how this works, so in other words Buster can't do anything, to improve speed.

So we are back to the CPU copy routine, but even so ZorroIII bus is faster then chipmem.

Quote:

But won't continue this pointless argument. It was stated a few times already, please just go ahead and make a 640x480 effect and see for yourself instead of coming up with random numbers based on imaginary scenarios.

the sys-speed numbers are not random, they are benchmark numbers from real people.

Imaginary scenarios? I'm not one manufacturing imaginary scenarios.

If we want to go back what my clame is, that 640x480 should be possible to do in demos, there are things I don't know, but I also think I have already proven that some assumptions about AGA are also wrong.

I think I have managed to prove that chipmem is the bottleneck, by using chipmem benchmark numbers, and the fps from the resolution, C2P is not free, it might be the limiting factor.

Maybe its not possible to do the effects in 640x480, because the CPU overhead to reader the effects, I have to wonder if you think RTG will not improve speed at all, and if so I think you are greatly mistaken.

Because the sys-speed number are showing some thing else, CGX/P96 vs AGA in every graphical operation.
Pixel write function is factor of 4.8 to 5.5 faster on P96/CGX then AGA on MC68060. (some operations even faster)

So lets say average of 5.15, so if 0.9Mb/s is speed of chipmem then graphic card mem is about 4,6Mb/s, its many times slower then fast mem but should be sufficient.

4.6Mbs / (320*200) = 75,3fps, 4.6Mbs / (640*480) = 15,7fps (not doing anything else),
but its way better then 0.9mbs / (320x200) = 14,74fps (chipram)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:00 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 01:48 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga
Your numbers are still wrong. I can't even follow you, but 0.9MB/sec and 14.74fps is surely wrong for chipmem. My own - slow - intros do 20-25 fps, while rendering 320x200 8bit on AGA/060 (tested on multiple machines), with just the C2P running, it goes even higher, around 30 fps.

But then again, the speed of chipmem from the CPU PoV is highly dependent on the actual screenmode, for example, and a bunch of other factors.

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@Chain-Q

30 fps that about 1.8 Mb/s.

http://amiga.resource.cx/perf/sysspeed.html

Quote:

Memory Every test moves 5 MB through a greatest possible buffer and counts the time for it. The first row shows the transfer speed with byte aligned buffer, the second with longword aligned (32 bit). A "-" means there's no Fast RAM installed in the tested system.

I looked at the first number, so its better then what I wrote.

1st number is relevant when writing one pixel, the 2en number is best scenario number, lets say you copy a image, you do that whit longword.

So its going to depends on the routine.

The average number first number is 1.2, mbs it’s so maybe it’s more reparative for 8bit writes. the average number for long word is 4,9 mbs.

0.9 mbs might be bit under average for a 060, so from now on assume 1.2 mbs.

whit 1.2mbs i get 19,6fps at 320x200 that's closer to your numbers.

In a longword copy routine, you might get up to 80fps at 320x200.
For example if you did the c2p in fastmem and copied over after its done.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:57 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:56 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:52 AM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:25 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:23 AM.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: whit 1.2mbs i get 19,6fps at 320x200 that's closer to your numbers. In a longword copy routine, you might get up to 80fps at 320x200.

Would love to see 80 FPS out of AGA, that would be awesome....

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I lost you me you say max is 16fps then you subtract 9 fps and get 5 or 6fps? Should be 7 by my math.

No. My explanation was maybe a bit bad.

At PAL you have a 50hz screenmode, which can give you a maximum of 50 fps. So, if a screen takes 3 frames to render and copy, the framerate is 50/3 ~= 16.7fps

So, at 50hz, if a screen takes 9 frames to render and copy, it's 50/9 ~= 5.6fps. So even if the copy was free, it would still be 50/8 ~= 6.25fps.

Quote:

So we need assume that your math is wrong to begin whit

No, my math is correct

@Chain-Q

Nice one..i have seen it now, a lest 2 times.. insane demo, i have to admit Timeless is one great demo. too bad i could't run it be course missing OpenGL 4 function that ATI dosen't support in their drives. i spent 6 hours trying to get it to work, using different hacking tool. like GLSLHacker..but no sigar:(

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@Britelite

Yes, you're absolutely right .. I wish I could but its to late for me to learn programming . I have it more as entertainment, I have done some ray tracing and music .. but I have unfortunately no time, as sailor, I'm gone a lot, and when I'm home I have children. but demoscene need the people who look at too :)

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@elwood

Quote:

tell demomakers you are not using any 3D, the hardware runs at 1 GHz or so, with only one core. It should produce a small wow effect, IMO.

So, basically showing PC guys stuff they already did 15 years ago? ;)

@Britelite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGBUzfMWVsM


only AGA

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@noXLar

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGBUzfMWVsM only AGA

What about it?

@Britelite

thought you was looking for Quake AGA .. but looks resolution is only 320x200

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@noXLar

Quote:

thought you was looking for Quake AGA .. but looks resolution is only 320x200

Heh, I've played Quake AGA. :)

What I wanted was some proof that Quake would run at a decent frame rate on an 060 with software-rendering on a 640x480 RTG screen.

@Britelite


okay, my last youtube link...:)

Amiga 1200 PPC 210 MHz, BVision - 512x384, 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIHmyQbnMRc

Quake 2 on Amiga 4000 PPC 320x240 8/16bit textures and 640x480

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ1eF5fN_zg

a1200 ppc 640x480 32.8 FPS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_9XzpBoVHQ

Last edited by noXLar on 24-Apr-2014 at 07:59 AM.
Last edited by noXLar on 24-Apr-2014 at 07:54 AM.

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If nothing else, this thread has atleast enlighten my coder-illiterate mind about the limitations that (demo)-coders face on classical amigas. Thanks for the indepth discussion

@noXLar
These videos are still all PPC and some (all?) even 3D accelerated, but surely not 060 and software rendering, but nevermind. :)

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@NovaCoder

Quote:

Would love to see 80 FPS out of AGA, that would be awesome....

and the calculation is wrong, I used the same formula as did for bytes, its x 4 better because its longword, its 4 bytes, but its this just putting some random color/data on the screen.

Closer to 320 FPS, just putting trash on the screen, a bit less if you move some real data from fast.

You never be able to see more then screen can display, being careful how you use chip mem, does make a big difference, at least that's what benchmark numbers say.

Never try do anything in chip, do it in fast mem, and copy it.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Im not trying to be mean or anything, but do you have any demo/game making expirience?

The reason why I ask is that Britelite and Novacoder have alot of expirience programming classical hardware demos/games (Nova with his ports).
Im quite certain that both Britelite and Novacoder is doing their best to squeeze out the maximum of FPS they can when making 3d demos/games.

One thing is taking theoretical data/benchmarks and misinterpeting how its being processed.
Theorycrafting vs applied knowledge etc.

Just curious, since I have absolutely no knowledge on the topic

Last edited by Overflow on 24-Apr-2014 at 12:24 PM.
Last edited by Overflow on 24-Apr-2014 at 12:23 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Never try do anything in chip, do it in fast mem, and copy it.

At least you got something right.

@Britelite

That explains it, so you where taking compared to 50hz,
rendering time is to fast or chipmem?

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

That explains it, so you where taking compared to 50hz, rendering time is to fast or chipmem?

Rendering in fastmem and copying to chipmem (the c2p part).