@agami

I can have a dedicated project icon on its own (with a different name from the drawer), have a tailored script in the same drawer, or define a scripted action for the general case and put it on the context menu.
Or several other ways of skinning the cat I've not even considered.

Not being able to set a tool for a drawer icon is not, to me, a limiting factor.
In fact I've never tried until kolla asked.

Kolla's workflow is his own, so it may be a (slightly limiting) annoyance to him.

PS - LinkedIn profile... the word 'vague' springs to mind. :)

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@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: @kolla Quote: BTW, can someone test the following for me: Make a drawer. Open icon info. Change icon type of the drawer from "drawer" to "project". Set multiview as Tool. Save icon info. What happens when you double click the icon? Back in 3.1 days, I am pretty sure that Multiview would open, with file requestor located at the drawer, showing the content. Works in OS4.1 but it becomes imposibble to open the drawer as a drawer, even indirectly via ARexx. AS an extension of that you can set the default tool to filer, and start from shell then it opens the drawer in filer, but it messes up access to the workbench in someway, you can no longer display any subdrawer on the workbench or bring up an icons info. I'm wondering if this happens to be the way workbench hides volumes from the workbench, or it makes WB think the directory is hidden in some way.

Nice to know it works in OS4.1, though I do not grasp quite what you talk about after that.

All my wrapper script did was take the drawer as argument and look for a magically named file inside that drawer, and if possible, execute it. Maybe I also set tooltype CLI (launch with shell), I do not recall. Maybe ThoR can enlighten us on this.

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@kolla

Quote:

But most importantly - it is, AFAIK, what OS3.1 did.

MorphOS is not Workbench emulator. OTOH it would work if Multiview iso changed to open file requester when a target is a directory.

However user can bypass icon object at any time and use default action. It is not guaranteed the user is following your expected use pattern. In general using defaulttool is bad idea because users install different programs to different locations.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @bison Quote: List them (succinctly, not all this press release babble). 1. I am a little surprised I have to list these to someone who has used the Amiga.

Why? I list my stuff and typically hear that I can get most of what I list up, using Linux and AmiWM, or Linux with AROS hosted, or even WinUAE.

Most Amiga users are totally ignorant about the OS they use!!

Quote:

2. @kolla created a nice list #647, but he is listing the user facing features (effect) not the supporting functions (cause).

Because it is the facing features that matter, in what way they are implemented (cause) is of little or no concern, unless you are a developer. And we all know how developers _love_ amiga systems. Not.

Quote:

AmigaOS has a uniquely flexible and responsive internal task scheduler. It allows for a decoupled UI processing and instruction processing. It's what makes it possible to let the user continue to engage with the GUI while the system is working in the back end on returning results. It also allows for the GUI macro feature @kolla listed.

Hmmm, I do not see how these are coupled. Pressing RMB seems to pretty much halt whatever happens in task "owning" the menu at the time. Anyways, again, these are simply implementation issues, I recall MagicMenu becoming "multitasking" which prevented the multiselect macro possibility. Not sure what current status is, I never use MagicMenu, but most people do it seems.

Quote:

AmigaOS has an innate metadata file based system. This allows for functions to operate directly on files without an intermediary interpretation process. File and data interchange and integration is more efficient. It's one of the reasons ARexx is so potent.

Even if that is valid, nobody cares. Other OSes have implemented IPC through message ports and sockets in ways much more secure, traceable and reliable.

Quote:

AmigaOS has a uniquely addressable or rather re-addressable filing system. It reduces the amount of listeners that need to operate within the operating system and it makes the application operating environment highly customisable. Information and data organisation can be abstracted much easier with less CPU time than what has been added in Windows and Mac OS X. It's one of the mechanisms supporting functionality of Datatypes, Devices, Locales, etc.

Again little to no relevance to real world. Btw, your way of tossing Windows and OSX together, as if they were even remotely similar in the way they deal with files, is speaking volumes. AmigaOS has a uniq way of dealing with removable media, device names vs volume names, but again that is about implementation.

Quote:

AmigaOS's primary language is GUI, or rather widgets (Intuition). Where other operating systems operate layers of GUI well above the core OS, in the AmigaOS architecture this sits much lower. Unfortunately, in order to extend the native GUI functions, dedicated 3rd party developers have created GUI layers above the native layer in the years since Commodore's demise.

Yes, this is obvious.

Quote:

AmigaOS still has one of the most flexible shared library systems. The libraries themselves need updating but the system that allows the sharing of libraries is still up to the task.

Not unique to AmigaOS, and it is a problem that libraries loaded in RAM are not protected, are not uniqely loaded per process (well, task on amiga), no LD_LIBRARY_PATH equivalent to deal with compatibility issues (read how MorphOS 3.8 comes with muimaster.library that is "too new" for many programs) '

Quote:

Morphos and AROS have reverse engineered these 'effects' into their own software 'causes' and therefore mimic the AmigaOS operating environment. But if I was going to enhance the 'cause' to create new 'effects', then I would go back to the original source.

Whatever for?! Good lordy, it is just a matter of reimplementing BEHAVIOUR, we users do not care one bit about your so called "cause", I just want similar BEHAVIOUR!! That you as a developer find BCPL, OS3 includes, headers and 68k asm interesting does not interest me as a user. Really!

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @megol Quote: To communicate one have to learn a language. Thinking it is possible to do it without learning a language is just a failure to understand the topic. Having an adaptive user interface doesn't change that and is a well studied area (IMHO more research is still needed). By the time most people reach adulthood they already know multiple languages so why should they need to learn another?

Because the languages they know aren't directly useful for computer interaction?
What I refer to as language here is how to use things. One have to learn a language to operate a TV, another to operate a microwave, another for programming an industrial robot.

Quote:

A shift in computing and particularly in UX started about 5 years ago where less and less people need to know how to operate functions on a device, as the device would be able to apply skeuomorphic concepts to meet the users existing knowledge.

Bullshit. There are a lot of learned behavior required to operate a mobile phone/tablet computer, I've personally seen people limited in their interactions because they haven't learned how to use their devices - both in elderly and young people.
It is still a learned language.

Quote:

Example: Turning the page of an e-book on a touch device is the same as turning a page in a physical book.

So for you that isn't a learned behavior? And it isn't the same interaction - it is a simulation of the page flipping motion. There's a reason the standard GUI abstraction is that of a scroll rather than a book - it is a better fit.

Quote:

Quote: Look into: Smalltalk and Squeak, GEOS (adaptive user interface) and OpenDoc (user configurable applications from components). 1. The topic is how to make AmigaOS a leading operating system, not how to make some other obscure OS into a leading operating system. 2. Whilst each of those operating systems you mentioned are doing cool things in certain areas, it is my view that the AmigaOS sits well at the crossroads of everything I would like to accomplish. 3. I care more about AmigaOS than any other OS. Quote: Because you aren't making technical sense... I am deliberately avoiding getting too technical in this public forum; I'm not about to give away more than 10 years of R&D. Following the lead from @bison I used high level descriptions for core features. Personally, I am plenty technical. I used to be a coder/developer in the '80s and '90s, I have managed development teams from 2001 to 2007, and now I am part owner of two development practices in India.

Right.

Quote:

Quote: Not sure you understand that it is a unsolvable problem - just like adding those features to AOS and still being able to call it AOS. No problem is unsolvable.

So your idea is comparable with the design of a hypercomputer? I doubt that.

Quote:

In this scenario where I am turning AmigaOS into a leading operating system, it is still called AmigaOS by the virtue that it is based on AmigaOS code, it supports the execution of classic 68k Amiga applications and games, and allows the nostalgic few to configure the UI to mimic the old Workbench.

There's nothing that would remain of the old system. Exec would work completely differently, the GUI subsystem wouldn't work the same either, DOS would have to be revised completely...

It wouldn't be Amiga OS.

Quote:

Quote: So you think that everything having to be removed is an advantage compared with traditional systems. Why not instead base your system on things that work and already can do most things you want? And why do you think your "UX" requires an innovative core system? Because I disagree with how most things have been implemented. Because the things that "work" already don't do the things I want them to, and to extend them in that direction would result in an inelegant solution. Because I am also working on a new hardware platform that the more "mature" operating systems are not designed for.

So you aren't just clueless - you are a wannabe. Let me guess: your hardware that you developed yourself in over 10 years is so unique that you can't mention it?

Quote:

Quote: agami wrote: @bison [quote]List them (succinctly, not all this press release babble). 1. I am a little surprised I have to list these to someone who has used the Amiga. 2. @kolla created a nice list #647, but he is listing the user facing features (effect) not the supporting functions (cause). AmigaOS has a uniquely flexible and responsive internal task scheduler. It allows for a decoupled UI processing and instruction processing. It's what makes it possible to let the user continue to engage with the GUI while the system is working in the back end on returning results. It also allows for the GUI macro feature @kolla listed.

More babble. The task scheduler is the kind one learn first in a operating system class - it is the basic type of scheduler and aren't "flexible" nor "responsive". It isn't realtime so it can't be called responsive in that way, it isn't adaptive so it can't be called responsive in that way either.
And where's the flexibility? Do you even know the meaning of the word?

Then you somehow babble of "decoupled UI processing" and "instruction processing" like 1) they have something to do with each other and 2) have any meaning in the real world.

Quote:

AmigaOS has an innate metadata file based system. This allows for functions to operate directly on files without an intermediary interpretation process. File and data interchange and integration is more efficient. It's one of the reasons ARexx is so potent.

More cluelessness: Amiga DOS is a basic disk management system and have no "innate metadata" more than MS DOS.

Quote:

AmigaOS has a uniquely addressable or rather re-addressable filing system.

It isn't unique and you aren't making any sense.

Quote:

It reduces the amount of listeners that need to operate within the operating system and it makes the application operating environment highly customisable.

What listeners?

Quote:

Information and data organisation can be abstracted much easier with less CPU time than what has been added in Windows and Mac OS X. It's one of the mechanisms supporting functionality of Datatypes, Devices, Locales, etc.

Again this makes zero sense. Those things you mention have nothing to do with each other and your talking about abstraction and "data organisation" that just aren't there. Have you ever used Amiga OS?!?

Quote:

AmigaOS's primary language is GUI, or rather widgets (Intuition). Where other operating systems operate layers of GUI well above the core OS, in the AmigaOS architecture this sits much lower.

So wrong it's funny. Yes, in every aspect.

Quote:

Unfortunately, in order to extend the native GUI functions, dedicated 3rd party developers have created GUI layers above the native layer in the years since Commodore's demise. AmigaOS still has one of the most flexible shared library systems. The libraries themselves need updating but the system that allows the sharing of libraries is still up to the task.

Oh yeah the basic design is "the most flexible".

Quote:

Morphos and AROS have reverse engineered these 'effects' into their own software 'causes' and therefore mimic the AmigaOS operating environment. But if I was going to enhance the 'cause' to create new 'effects', then I would go back to the original source.

TL;DR you are clearly clueless but like to write technobabble. Add to that being both a software and hardware wannabe while knowing zero about either of those areas.

Last edited by megol on 20-May-2015 at 12:37 PM.

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Boot_WB wrote: @agami I can have a dedicated project icon on its own (with a different name from the drawer), have a tailored script in the same drawer, or define a scripted action for the general case and put it on the context menu. Or several other ways of skinning the cat I've not even considered. Not being able to set a tool for a drawer icon is not, to me, a limiting factor. In fact I've never tried until kolla asked.

Certainly, there are numerous ways around, I just discovered that some old project folders I had were no longer considered projects with OS3.9, so I wonder when, how and why (intentional or not), this behaviour changed.

Quote:

PS - LinkedIn profile... the word 'vague' springs to mind. :)

I am more surprised "Fleecy" is not the name, considering the amount of technobabbel regarding trivialities.

Last edited by kolla on 20-May-2015 at 10:21 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 20-May-2015 at 10:20 AM.

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@itix

I don't care about "most users" when I set a certain tool for a certain project icon, I really only care about what it does for me, on that system, noone else. Following your logic, one should remove the concept of default tools alltogether. I believe Multiview does open file requester if given a path as argument, but I could be wrong, and I have nothing to test with.

Last edited by kolla on 20-May-2015 at 10:20 AM.

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@kolla

You can still use a default tool if you want but it is easier to use the default icon system.

AmigaOS Multiview probably opens file requester in that case but I am not sure if MorphOS Multiview is doing that. Probably not but I can change it.

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@itix

Quote:

You can still use a default tool if you want but it is easier to use the default icon system.

Actually no you really wouldn't want to do that on Workbench as if you change the def_Drawer.info to a Project, all subdrawers drawers with or without their own icons, become inaccessbale from the workbench, this seem to be a side effect of inheriting the show all / show icon type drawers settings from parents.

File remain accessable though.

In the below Rename_Me has aproject icon rather than a drawer icon.


11.AmigaOS4:> WBRun T:Rename_Me/DD
WBRUN: object is not of required type
11.AmigaOS4:> echo foo > t:Rename_Me/DD/bar
11.AmigaOS4:> WBRun T:Rename_Me/DD/bar
11.AmigaOS4:>

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@broadblues

I was speaking about default icons in general. For example if you have icon for every movie file and set their default tool to "MPlayer" or something, fine. But if you want to change that and use VLC instead you would have to go through every icon to change default tool. It is better use default icon system and change default action from there.

In fact using hard icons for data files has lost its meaning.

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@kolla

Quote:

* GUI in the core of the OS, AmigaOS has no CLI only mode * multiple screens at core of the OS, with uniq properties * Amiga style menus, with multi-select to create a macro that is executed on release of RMB * various DOS concepts, like logical volumes, virtual volumes (assigns) etc * icon files (#?.info) that gives user lot of possibilities to be creative ;)

The first half of the first point is a big one for me -- I hate latency in the UI. Gnome and KDE are especially bad in this respect. Unity may be as well, but I dislike it so much that I haven't used it long enough to find out.

The GUI doesn't really have to be in the core of the OS, it just has to be a high-priority process, and it should be designed to run the UI on behalf of apps, instead of apps running random bits of the UI. Amiga got this right, X11 (and others) did not.

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@agami

Quote:

1. I am a little surprised I have to list these to someone who has used the Amiga.

I've already provided my list:

1. It should be small and simple. AmigaOS meets this criteria.

2. It should be open source. AmigaOS does not meet this criteria, although AROS does, as well as the usual suspects: Linux, BSD, etc.

I'm appending to my list based in part on comments posted by @kolla:

3. It should have a low-latency UI. AmigaOS and AROS meet this criteria, X11 does not. Wayland remains to be seen.

Last edited by bison on 20-May-2015 at 04:07 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Mainstream in my view will have to be limited to one niche area of computing and with the Xena functionality in the X1000 and presumably the X5000 it would make sense to promote it as a control system for the 'internet of things'. That's the only 'new' market that I see the AmigaOne machines being able to compete in and have an inherent advantage in.

This is a good indication of where this internet of things is heading ...

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/05/20/2054257/huaweis-liteos-internet-of-things-operating-system-is-a-minuscule-10kb

Regards,
Evert

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@itix

Quote:

In fact using hard icons for data files has lost its meaning.

100% agreed.

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@itix, Trixie

Although it could still useful for defining the exception to the rule, I am struggling to think where it might give any advantage.

Example: MorphOS c:installer isn't 100% compatible with 3.1 installer, so both are useful for different scripts (native, and legacy if you will). Both are kept in path: native is named 'installer', legacy is 'installer68K' (on my system).

Using 68K installer instead of morphos installer on a per-application basis might seem a good candidate - individual script icons could be set to use installer68K when needed.
But it's still quicker, easier, and then defined for the general case and all future actions if you just set up a context menu action, then run 68K installer from a right-click menu as-and-when the native installer fails.
Plus if you change the arguements, application used, or any paths you only have to update it in one place, not in every individual icon, which is a major win.

Dammit, I'm forced to agree, even though I like that particular Amiga-ism. :)

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@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote: @itix Quote: In fact using hard icons for data files has lost its meaning. 100% agreed.

I don't, it certainly has its uses!

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Trixie Quote: Trixie wrote: @itix [quote]In fact using hard icons for data files has lost its meaning. 100% agreed.

I don't, it certainly has its uses![/quote]

It's only lost its meaning in the GUI paradigm of Windows/OS X and all the others that copy it, which includes the evolved AmigaOS et al.

But in a different GUI paradigm it could have all the meaning in the world.
To be honest, having generic icons for file types annoys me to no end. It goes against many good design and interface principles, primary of them being DRY.

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@kolla

It certainly does. I might have 4 different applications that can open files ending in ".sch" on any given computer _because people aren't very creative when they select file endings for their software_ and this means that VIRTUALLY every time I need to right-click and select from a list. Yet, if it's one type of file I always want it in app a, another file I want it always in app b etc. So the Amiga way would be wastly superior to me.

Not to mention files ending in .doc, which can be text or MS Word, depending on context. .c and .pdf have a similar problem with a different cause (evince is faster than acroread but less compatible etc).

Short story long, I would like the icons (including classact?) of AmigaOS on my Linux box NOW, please. It finally got drag'n'drop from file browsers to command shells, so all in all it's on the right track

Last edited by olegil on 22-May-2015 at 09:31 AM.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: It's only lost its meaning in the GUI paradigm of Windows/OS X and all the others that copy it, which includes the evolved AmigaOS et al.

What is that paradigm?

Et al. is used when naming authors, etc. is what you should use here.

Quote:

But in a different GUI paradigm it could have all the meaning in the world. To be honest, having generic icons for file types annoys me to no end. It goes against many good design and interface principles, primary of them being DRY.

I can only conclude that you mean Do Repeat Yourself as that's the only thing that makes sense in this context. Generic icons -> less needless repetition.
BTW many good user interfaces _do_ use of repetition in order to reduce errors - including human languages and programming languages like Ada.

N.B. that your use of obscure TLAs doesn't make you seem knowledgeable, rather the opposite. Anybody that aren't addressing a group that is sure to know the TLA in question should spell it out - this is a rather fundamental thing. And it _is_ a part of the interface between you and others, a user interface in fact.
But you wouldn't know a good UI design if it bit you in the ass.

@megol

"et al" can be used to complete any sort of list, but is used more for people than other things and most frequently with authors. Saying it can only be used for authors would be like prosecuting Intel for not keeping up with Moore's Law (which was merely an observation).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.