@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote: @LimoU.Sin Quote: LimoU.Sin wrote: Can you run any of the RTG supported games outside EUAE, like Alien Breed 3D II or Genetic Species? If they don't rely on any other hardware assets (hardware timers, hardware controller inputs etc.) and use RTG correctly then they'll work fine. If they depend on specific hardware then obviously they won't work without some sort of emulation. Paula sound can be emulated on OS4 so that solves some problems for some software. I'm not a big gamer, but off the top of my head these are games I have that run fine under OS4: Payback, Foundation, Quake, Descent: Freespace and Earth2140.

Thank you for clear info. I don't think these games work very well on any NG system then.

I have some ported old games i purchased from Hyperion when they did what they were relatively or reasonably good at... namely porting none serious hardware banging games. this leads to, i don't think an OS is something you just port to different hardware architecture.... but me could be wrong.

@HL

The Amiga Market is nearly dead, you won't find enough paying customers for a 600€ accelerator card, if there would be a real market for such a card you would have a FPGA card with a 68020 comptaible CPU running faster than a 68060/80MHz together with SATA, USB and a frambuffer with HDMI interface.

@Thread

No this is not OK, but it's a situation Amiga Users have accepted during the last years.

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I quote myself: "I never liked demos" 4 simple words that SHOULD be quite clear. Right? Or not?. Why? Have they given you psychological trauma as a little boy or somethin?

Human beings have different tastes. Don't you have your preferences regarding any argument / thing? Or your is philosophy to try everything? In that case, you can try to commit suicide, to taste the experience...

Like I said, I don't like demos. I don't see any reason why I've to spend my time trying them, so I prefer to dedicate my time to what I (me, myself, etc.: NOT you or other people) like.

Is it clear enough?
Quote:

You know they are free to test on AROS?

Yes, and so what? I prefer to enjoy (not test) other things with AROS. Right?
Quote:

Why do you want an emulator for very old software from a very old computer that brake the new OS integrated at all into a the new OS on new very incompatible hardware?

Because I like? See above: it's a PERSONAL TASTE.
Quote:

That doesn't seem like good marked strategy to me.

It doesn't seem a good thing to me wasting time running demos.

It's totally non-sense to me, since I can MUCH better spend my time with some application, coding, or even playing some good old title.

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: I would also like to see if cdimauro can do it on his X86 PC, if he can't i see no point in trying Aros at all because my Amiga is running AmigaOS3 which is the most Amiga compatible OS for my Amiga 1200 computer, and winuae.

Try I decent AROS/68K system, like it was suggested, instead of sticking with very old AROS/68K roms. AROS Vision is perfect for this.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: The most compatible way to run Amiga Demos is UAE, as it's the only way you can guaranty having right hardware configuration for the DEMO, or correct CPU model (with our without instruction cache, with or with data cache), the correct amount of CHIP and FAST memory.

And the correct CPU model also to handle some stupid things that Motorola did, like:

- missing MOVE CCR on 68000, which caused coders to use MOVE SR which become privileged on the subsequent models;
- introducing new stack frames for exceptions;
- changing the MMU;
- removing "integer" instructions from user space;
- removing FPU instructions (again, from user space).

It seems that the motto was: we don't care about retro-compatibility...
Quote:

Many OCS Demos and Games do not work on AGA computers.

Unfortunately, since they are badly written. Lazy or ignorant coders...

@cdimauro

Preferences of course, but demos are certainly not one of those things that sets someone in deadlock or what?

You see, to me i think one must be very wrong screwed together if one can even compare to test some demos with suicide... sorry but i can't help laughing.




The demos are just electronic Art, that should not prevent anyone to try whether they work or not. You can quit the demos by pressing the mouse buttons or something if you get panic...




You mention games as alternatives, there is very much art in games you know?



Here is one of them if yo can't run them, 64 kilobytes very scary Demo....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGga-GsIkfY





(edit) the other video missed the end scroller.

Last edited by LimoU.Sin on 06-Aug-2015 at 11:05 PM.

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @cdimauro Preferences of course, but demos are certainly not one of those things that sets someone in deadlock or what? You see, to me i think one must be very wrong screwed together if one can even compare to test some demos with suicide... sorry but i can't help laughing.

It was a well known figure of speech: a hyperbole. OK, not well know, in your case...
Quote:

The demos are just electronic Art, that should not prevent anyone to try whether they work or not. You can quit the demos by pressing the mouse buttons or something if you get panic... You mention games as alternatives, there is very much art in games you know? Here is one of them if yo can't run them, 64 kilobytes very scary Demo.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGga-GsIkfY (edit) the other video missed the end scroller.

I don't like such kind of art.

Am I dispensed now by this ridiculous discussion, or do you want to continue to find ways to push me on looking at demos?

I AM NOT IN-TE-RE-STED.

NONE. ZERO. NULL (pointer).

Verstehen Sie?

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: I don't like such kind of art. Am I dispensed now by this ridiculous discussion, or do you want to continue to find ways to push me on looking at demos? I AM NOT IN-TE-RE-STED. NONE. ZERO. NULL (pointer). Verstehen Sie?

Sure, you're not the only one who don't like demos.

You see I really don't give a shit whether you like demos or not, that was not the point in the first place.




But anyways I must say the demos do a great job giving new life and nutrition to my good old Amiga.



And why don't you like such kind of art?






PS. You don't have to answer, get some fresh air instead

Last edited by LimoU.Sin on 07-Aug-2015 at 08:15 AM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

- introducing new stack frames for exceptions;

That sounds like a good idea, it be un logical that a interrupt should be using the same stack frame as any random task/process. Interrupts is caused by external hardware, and as the name imply interrupts what CPU was doing at any given moment. How is it going to have private local variables, if the stack is not private?
Quote:

- removing "integer" instructions from user space; - removing FPU instructions (again, from user space).

That not something exclusive to 68000, normally missing instructions is handled easy by catching the exception and emulating the missing instruction, at cost of dead slow program.

it is common for PowerPC, they tried that also with Cyrix with no success.

On the one hand they try to get people to optimize their code, and write Assembler, on the other hand, they assume everyone just recompile there C program, and there will not be problem.

Special optimization is best put in shared library so it's easy replaced, or need to build multiple versions.

In any case, if you have MCU running some production line for 30 years, heat and power consumption is more important than speed I guess.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2015 at 07:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2015 at 12:44 PM.

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@LimoU.Sin

I live for demo's...

Q!

"i am home"

@QuBe

There is many clever tricks in art like that but most people don't realize it and think animation is the same.


Besides clever tricks, the "materials" used plays an very important role.

@LimoU.Sin

Britelight!!!

Q!

"i am home"

@LimoU.Sin

"Demo or die" ... the spirit of the demo scene

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: I AM NOT IN-TE-RE-STED. NONE. ZERO. NULL (pointer). Verstehen Sie?

Ok, not interested at demos as arte "per se", however demos are often also very good benchmarks on emulators compatibility, especially for some esoteric hacks used; by that you could concede to define Demos as the modern day equivalent of what monoscope used to be for TV repair shops anf have their usefulness... ^^

Last edited by saimon69 on 09-Aug-2015 at 04:28 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: - introducing new stack frames for exceptions; That sounds like a good idea, it be un logical that a interrupt should be using the same stack frame as any random task/process. Interrupts is caused by external hardware, and as the name imply interrupts what CPU was doing at any given moment. How is it going to have private local variables, if the stack is not private?

But it breaks compatibility with the existing software.
Quote:

Quote: - removing "integer" instructions from user space; - removing FPU instructions (again, from user space). That not something exclusive to 68000, normally missing instructions is handled easy by catching the exception and emulating the missing instruction, at cost of dead slow program.

No, it's at the cost of a software which doesn't work anymore, because you cannot guarantee that a trap handler is setup to handle such new cases.
Quote:

it is common for PowerPC, they tried that also with Cyrix with no success.

It doesn't mean that it's a good model to follow.

It's much better to have a mechanism to query which instruction sets are available, and THEN decided what to do with your code.

Just removing instructions isn't a "polite" way.
Quote:

On the one hand they try to get people to optimize their code, and write Assembler, on the other hand, they assume everyone just recompile there C program, and there will not be problem.

Which isn't the case with old software, especially for 68K.
Quote:

Special optimization is best put in shared library so it's easy replaced, or need to build multiple versions.

That's only works if you have an o.s. running AND you can patch/update the illegal exception handler to emulate the missing instructions.

What happened if an AGA game used an instruction which was missing from the flaming new 68060 accelerator board?
Quote:

In any case, if you have MCU running some production line for 30 years, heat and power consumption is more important than speed I guess.

Absolutely.

@saimon69

Quote:

saimon69 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: I AM NOT IN-TE-RE-STED. NONE. ZERO. NULL (pointer). Verstehen Sie? Ok, not interested at demos as arte "per se", however demos are often also very good benchmarks on emulators compatibility, especially for some esoteric hacks used; by that you could concede to define Demos as the modern day equivalent of what monoscope used to be for TV repair shops anf have their usefulness... ^^

No, I especially dislike them because demo authors decided to use such "esoteric hacks", usually breaking Commodore's guidelines to the Amiga hardware (direct) programming.

That's the reason why the Amiga hardware should be emulated so accurately, even cycle-exact, which slowed down A LOT everything.

Such poor coders which made a mess with the chipset(s) have all my disappointment (to be polite).

@cdimauro

Many today professionals / companies have their roots in the demo scene.
No doubts demos have a great value, that is also why demo sceners are often hired by important firms.

Hacks have been invented to push machines to their limits.

I like demos (and demos programming).

Ciao

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@Massi: a good coder should be able to follow the rules.

How many demos worked without problems on ANY Amiga configuration? I mean, without tools like WHDLoad which actually tried to correct all the bad things that poor coders (even the ones which created games. I've no bias against only demo coders from this point of view) have made.

Personally I don't give any credit to such kind of bad coders.

@cdimauro

Here i have to agree to disagree: prefer to have sometihng done even badly than nothing done goodly, but that is my personal point of view.

Last edited by saimon69 on 10-Aug-2015 at 08:56 PM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

a good coder should be able to follow the rules.

100% true.

Quote:

How many demos worked without problems on ANY Amiga configuration?

There are also lots of good demos coded by excellent programmers, which of course run friendly without any patch.

Many programming techniques have been invented for demos and then applied to games too.

I also believe the demo scene contributes to keep the Amiga alive, with so many enthusiasts still hacking the machine after 30 years

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