Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: User use Software not memory protection or SMP

No, but they're both beneficial to the user. Memory protection increases safety and can prevent system crashes, while SMP improves the performance of software that's written to use it.

@Yasu

Quote:

Yasu wrote: As long as all three NG has the limitation it does none of them have a future. It doesn't matter that AROS x64 can address more memory space as it still lacks MP. This alone will make mainstream computer users uninterested. Mainstream users - NOT Amigans. All Amigans care about is the Amiga feeling. They can live with the limitations and frequent crashes.

I don't know about AROS and MorphOS, but since AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6 my Sam460ex has been very stable. And with AmigaOS 4.1 FE, hardly any crashes at all...

@OlafS25

Quote:

or more simply asked... why should anyone using it instead of Linux or Windows or why should anyone develop for it.

My question exactly. The only major complaint I have with Linux is that it's gotten too big, which has me considering alternative such as DragonFly BSD. Conversely, the only really interesting thing about AROS is that it is so small, yet seemingly capable.

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@Nicsoft

Maybe so, but it doesn't make it a major seller. We are not talking about which system is the most fun or stable.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro I did write the "freaks" and there are a couple of that sort. They program asm because they like to do that, simple as that

So, in your opinion, a couple of freaks, working with a very unproductive language, will change the situation, right?

I want to see that miracle.
Quote:

And yes I believe and even proof that look at that: http://aminet.net/statistics uploads in years or on uploads new versus 68k then you see 10:1 68k vs. NG

You have to see also WHAT was uploaded. If uploaded software is similar to what I see on the downloaded stats, with A LOT of MP3s, some MPGs (!), and the usual, common, applications and games, well, I don't see a bright future.
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User 68k (real hardware or emulation) vs. all NG users my guess is at least 5:1 too if not more. It is difficult to guess because nowhere reliable numbers. On NG user numbers seem to be top secret...

Here users don't matter, because we are talking about a future platform, which needs support. If 68K support is represented essentially by wagons of new MP3, with some updated application from time to time, then I can safely assume that the 68K platform is "crystallized".

Of course, a future platform needs users, but they'll come. The post-Amiga community is a small niche, but made of many geeks, which are sensible to trying new "Amiga-like toys".
Quote:

User use Software not memory protection or SMP and developer of software develop for users not for OS (except they do it just for personal fun).

So users like to lose their work with a butterfly's wings beat, right? And I suppose aren't interested on making use of multiple cores, because performance is "good enough" for them. And maybe they like to splash around with just a few MBs of memory available (remember: "640KB ought to be enough for anybody" ).

Last but not least, graphic cards with GBs of memory? Nahhh. Don't even think about that: a bunch of MBs of Chip RAM is the recommended way to enjoy the platform for a real amigan.

Well, I've to say that this is far away of what I expect talking about... NOW. So no, not regarding the future, like this topic is talking about : just NOW!
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To say the platform with more users, easier distribution opportunities thanks to virtual platforms and much more software offers more chances is not insane, isn´t it?

It's insane thinking about that a couple of freaks working in assembly will change the status quo. I think that you don't know how much complicated can be developing a software of a certain complexity (in general). And from what you've stated 'til now, you had absolutely no experience doing that with such "nice" language.

It's a nightmare. And I don't even talk about writing games directly accessing the hardware, and with the o.s. which is gone because you're controlling everything. That's the worse experience possible, because you don't have a debugger which helps, and you cannot even put a simple "printf" somewhere to desperately see at a certain point what's going on (welcome to "Copper bars debugging", and special small screens where possible).

And the more complex is a software, the more the "weight" of a too low-level language like the assembly is felt, enlarging enormously the development time...

Well, what I see is a dystopian future which you've drawn: far away from the reality.

But, hey, dreaming is cheap!

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: The only major complaint I have with Linux is that it's gotten too big

How so? The kernel? Or is it the amount of software that is your complaint?

Quote:

which has me considering alternative such as DragonFly BSD.

You should do that anyways, but if it is for the sake of "too big", you are way off

/boot, which contains kernel, kernel modules and boot loader on my DragonFly system (4.2-RELEASE, and DFBSD only supports amd64) weighs in at 315MB (!!), the kernel binary 72MB - while Linux (4.3.0), PPC32 in this case) /boot with kernel (6.5MB) and boot loader (grub2), combined with /lib/modules (kernel modules) is 32MB all in all.

So how do you count size again?

Last edited by kolla on 22-Nov-2015 at 06:35 AM.

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@cdimauro

talking is cheap too

I talk about current user base and a chance to extend it. Not mainstream of course, not competing with Windows or Linux...

You talk about a not-existing new platform that will break everything and suddenly (out of thin air) get lots of new software. How and from whom? Why should anyone start developing for it suddenly? Certainly not for commercial reasons... Why should users install it without any specific software? I say the main problem at this point is not OS features, it is software justifying to use it. I proofed the situation by aminet statistics, 10:1 amiga 68k vs. NG is only aminet, most commercial software there not even included. I own a lot of former commercial software not in aminet at all. So it is more propably 15:1, and that after about 13 years. So lifting these 15 to a higher level with better hardware seems more realistic than starting from scratch. I say what you propose leads to a platform with no software, a nice tech demo, nothing else. Again users use a OS because of the software, nothing else. You are obviously technician, one reason why tech companies with that thinking fail.

@cdimauro

Quote:

It's insane thinking about that a couple of freaks working in assembly will change the status quo. I think that you don't know how much complicated can be developing a software of a certain complexity (in general). And from what you've stated 'til now, you had absolutely no experience doing that with such "nice" language. It's a nightmare.

I agree with you.
I don' t understand how non technical people (with respect) are entitled to speculate about for example architectures, SMP, memory protection, ... resulting in only "noise".

Moving to tech bits, I nowadays use C to direct programming of the Commodore Amiga hardware (only in rare cases a mix of C + Assembly), and this actually helps a bit

Ciao

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@Massi

and there are are billions of tech companies led by technicians ignoring customers that do not exist anymore

@cdimauro

"Of course, a future platform needs users, but they'll come. The post-Amiga community is a small niche, but made of many geeks, which are sensible to trying new "Amiga-like toys"."

You could not be more wrong... most members of the community could not care less about a "amiga-like toy" like that you propose. They will say what has it to do with amiga? You know everybody of us already uses Windows, Mac or Linux .

What you propose would be good when getting users without amiga-background but for that you need new software and services that attract them and make it "cool" to use it. Where do you get those? Magically they will appear just because of the new platform? I doubt that...

and regarding asm programming, there are people doing that just for fun not because it is "efficient".

@OlafS25
i would say every branch has a bit potential to grow..
Whatever I would not just work toward getting more developers over.
I would work toward making my OS compatible or at least providing a client to run streaming apps and games(from Windows,Linux). (The developers will come automatically if the OS userbase grows.)

Basically what some people like about aeros just not with Linux under the OS.
Linux runs on a server and window contents are streamed to your OS.

Than at day X everything you can imagine will be available... As long you have a internet connection.

Than. Of course a ng machine makes more sense because it must handle video,sound and I/o and this on higher resolutions than pal.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Nov-2015 at 10:22 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Nov-2015 at 10:21 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Nov-2015 at 10:16 AM.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @TRIPOS I do not disagree with most you wrote... only one question. What would be the niche for such a modernized OS?

The unique selling point would obviously to be a true NG "Amiga" (MorphOS) operating system, running on today's H/W, having all those features Amiga evolutionists have been dreaming of during the last 15 years, while doing it the Amiga way. I think it's a safe bet that it will look and feel like today, it will have Ambient, MUI5, the same file systems, etc. But the system will have a lot more power under the hood and be free of all Amiga limitations that has been holding the Amiga evolution back for so long.

Quote:

There is one side, the "retro" community but why should anyone use that platform with almost no software? I am general sceptical regarding all "NG" amiga platforms because most of the software is 68k and that will not change.

Well, at one point in time, I would have agreed with you. That was back when I first installed MorphOS 1.0 on my Pegasos 1. The thought of being able to run the classic Amiga apps in a modern OS environment on top of (then) very fast H/W was exciting. There was a reason to why the PPC was chosen (big endian) and so much effort was focused on JIT translator and on compatibility issues.

But today? Personal Paint? Please... Maybe in a retro context, but building a future on that? Letting that hold back the platforms evolution to modern features?

You can run Personal Paint perfectly fine in UAE if you really want to use 1995 level S/W in 2015 (and beyond, there is a future perspective in this thread). But a move to make the OS modern opens up a lot of new possibilities. All apps that still are under active development could be ported, no problem there, all major Internet applications will be there from the start, like all the built-in S/W, as well as MPlayer for media playback. This covers many (most) of a regular casual users need from the beginning. Then we will see.

MorphOS has come as far as it can on the PPC within the Amiga constraints. Where to go from here? It can't go retro, that was never the point of MorphOS, besides this market is cornered by Cloanto and the true, original Workbench 3.X OS. The only two options are to push ahead and evolve further, or roll over and die together with the PPC.

Quote:

Because of that I am optimistic regarding new future FPGA based solutions because they offer new hardware for the existing codebase.

I respect your view that 68k Amiga will have a future, but IMHO this is more like retro enthusiasts see themselves continuing to use their Amiga gear and Personal Paint in the future as well, rather than the true evolution for the platform that I am interested in. And frankly, what I see when looking at the FPGA community is more pipe dreams than tangible, marketable results.

Quote:

For "NG" you need new written software and there is the weak point. or more simply asked...

I don't see it like that, limiting your possibility forever of having a modern OS just to be able to run Personal Paint would be the weak thing. Evolved OS features on a H/W platform with true power and withot insane AeonKit PPC pricing, is what could enable new software.

Quote:

why should anyone using it instead of Linux or Windows or why should anyone develop for it. FPGA 68k is "geeky", NG not.

I never suggested that MorphOS NG should go head on competition with Windows or Linux because of this, the thought is ridiculous. IMHO the same logic as well as answer to your question will apply then that applies today.

@phoenixkonsole

if you want get users and developers with limited or no amiga background you need a new modernized OS and software and services that are unique and better than what you already have on the big platforms. I like Aros in all flavors but I think at the moment 68k has most potential IF hardware base is heavy upgraded. That is what I hope for...

We will see how successful Aros on X86 and ARM is and when Arix becomes real what would be important because of the drivers. Also your projects are interesting of course

But what some propose is going more far than even Aros and they say just because it exists dev will jump and suddenly new software will be developed. And I say that is not realistic.

@TRIPOS

there is in many cases no newer software for 68k not because it would not have been possible but because all jumped on the "PPC train" and 68k only was past. I do not agree to that. Then over the time more and more users and devs left until today. Most users that are left today are using "classic" mainly (either emulated or with heavily extended hardware). The problem is (how I experienced it when talking to devs) that a platform without "new real hardware" is not taken seriously but new FPGA based solutions could change that. BTW many former amiga developers stil love the 68k processors so a updated 68k core could be a motivation for some :). I have on the software side everything on 68k I also have on PPC or at least it would be no problem to backport. The only sector where "NG" solutions might have a advantage is in heavy 3D games because of modern graphic cards.

Amiga is retro, Aros might have a USP because it is crossplatform offering a standardized API

What is the niche for say MorphOS NG running on a couple of X64 PCs?

@OlafS25
Your failure is that you are stuck in the past : )
Nobody except us cares about 15year or older application with a UI no child could understand anymore without studying a printed manual with 600pages... a what? a printed manual? : )

We are old school. Mainstream is lightyears away.

While you are hoping for a 68k revival I am happy with what I have already as user base. It is enough to work with.
2 weeks ago we extended the Exagear deal to all ARM targets (so far it was only for Raspberry Pi2). This means AEROS for ARM ist the only existing OS which offer i386 and Windows(i386) compatibility out of the box. Besides this AmiCloud will next year allow you to run Autodesk applications, All Linux applications and your Steam library on any ARM target..
You know what.. I don't care if mainstream recognizes anything.. I am happy with the existing user base and I have a duty to continue to please the existing user base.

That I made Aminux was more or less a test to get a feeling how much would be interested in such a solution. Broadway i386 is not that interesting as well. The interest is in running AROS on ARM.

If i combine 68k AROS with i386AROS I would say that 20times more people are interested in ARM than the both combined. The problem is that most "users" are silent on forums. 99% just email me. So forums give a really wrong signal.. especially not the loudest screaming are automatically the most important base : )

AROS68k is important to run the old software, being it games or for nostalgic reasons applications a user fall in love several years ago.

Somebody who didn't know this old and outdated application will not be attracted by it.
Today people watch youtube to check how a app is working. Are there guides? No. The internet of normal people is totally silent about amiga apps.
They are pointless.

Off course not for us here ... our would is maybe 5000people strong (people wailing to invest time and money). And we like the old way.. but this is not important to the remaining people on planet earth.

What mainstream is about : Games , retro games..... retro apps? Nope I don't think so.

EDIT:
We should be happy with what we have and that people are pushing in all king of directions to extend or keep it alive.
Being it OS4, AROS,ARIX, MorphOS, AEROS, Amikit and so on..
We are getting old.. the last 2 years where quite sad (a lot nice people died), I am getting old and find it tiresome to discuss which solution is the best and "only" real solutions.. ... Hmm...
As long we have fun we should just continue to do what like and with "fun" not "war" we may attract new people more than with scratching our eyes out. I would like to find a middle way to support all platforms. But it is tough..

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 22-Nov-2015 at 12:08 PM.

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@OlafS25: this isn't an holy war, and I've already expressed my opinion, so I don't copy & paste again what I've already said.

The only thing that I want to point out is that you apply a different logic, depending on the context.

68K is full of software, but "will not change" (your words). However for future, new FPGA systems, you'll happily see support. All that despite the ENORMOUS effort requited, since you need to do a lot of low-level work.

But when you talk about other platforms (even current), your attitude changes completely. You don't see how much works was and is yet done for them (so ignoring that there IS a potential). And for a future platform "suddenly" everything disappears.

Double standards...

I think we are still using the word "future" to mean two different things.

1, A fun system people use for fun. Mainly for retro computing purposes. But you will turn on your other computer(s) to surf the web, write a document or watch Youtube.

Or

2, A useful system with unique Amiga-esque ways of doing things that attract a new crowd as this system will not have any relevant limitations (anymore).

That the retro crowd will keep the 68k Amiga alive for a long time is dead certain. It's the same thing as when people play around with their ZX80, C64, Apple II or any other now terribly old computers. And they are a whole lot more than the NG crowd. Got it. Case closed.

The second part can not be fulfilled by the 68k system of old. Too many limitations and old technologies. The NG system was supposed to fix this, but they have gotten old too. It's not an unfixable situation, but too many proposed solutions has surfaced over the years and none has yet bridged the old to the new, mostly because they have stopped when the task turned out to be too big.

So right now no system has a future. That might change. Phoenixconsole says he has a new, revolutionary system on the way and MorphOS has an ISA shift planned. First this has to arrive before we can take it seriously.

Then the hard part start: how to convince others, who have forgotten all about the Amiga a long time ago, to leave their comfort zones and join our ranks. The coolest, most modern of Amiga systems might die off quickly because people look at it and goes "meh!"

I'm repeating myself but it feels we are arguing about which fairy can fly the highest here.

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@kolla

Quote:

So how do you count size again?

Lines of code. Linux is up to about 21 million, which is big by any measure. It's probably mostly device drivers, so that mitigates the number a bit. One can still compile a compact kernel with careful configuration. But it's no longer anywhere close to being small and tidy.

How do you like DragonFly? I've played around with it, but I haven't yet used it on a day-to-day basis. My initial impressions are positive. Finding a desktop environment that I like it going to be a problem, but that's always a problem.

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@Yasu

Quote:

1, A fun system people use for fun. Mainly for retro computing purposes. But you will turn on your other computer(s) to surf the web, write a document or watch Youtube.

If you use emulation for the Amiga side you don't have to turn on your other computer. I think this is why things like Amiga Forever are popular. One can run an Amiga game in a window next to the latest version of Google Chrome.

Maybe we already have the best possible outcome and don't recognize it, having hoped that it would somehow be better. No air cars for us. We've seen the future, and it's ... just OK.

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Quote:

bison wrote: @kolla Quote: So how do you count size again? Lines of code. Linux is up to about 21 million, which is big by any measure. It's probably mostly device drivers, so that mitigates the number a bit. One can still compile a compact kernel with careful configuration. But it's no longer anywhere close to being small and tidy.

I tend to compile in only the stuff I need and that is demanded by the software I want to run. Yes, it is quite possible to configure it to be compact As for tidy, it never really was tidy, it is a lot tidier today than what it used to be, that is for sure.

Quote:

How do you like DragonFly? I've played around with it, but I haven't yet used it on a day-to-day basis. My initial impressions are positive. Finding a desktop environment that I like it going to be a problem, but that's always a problem.

I use it on a daily basis, and it is really "just another *ix" system, I sometimes forget that it is DFBSD. HAMMER is nice, but in day-to.day use it is not that different from running with ZFS. The package and build system feel archaic for me, as they always do on BSD (compared to Portage for example), but things are happening. And yes, I can relate to the desktop environment issue, there are currently no DE that I like, so on the DFBSD box, I use AmiWM, lol

Btw - FS-UAE works nicely, and I have started briefly looking into what it will take to make AROS hosted build as well, I would not mind having AROS with DOpus Magellan as DE eventually

Last edited by kolla on 22-Nov-2015 at 11:14 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 22-Nov-2015 at 11:14 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 22-Nov-2015 at 11:13 PM.

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