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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 0:59:23
#1141 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 786
From: Trondheim, Norway

Yeah, lack of FPU means I would have to recompile, reinstall and throw away quite a lot of what I typically have installed. Math libraries, ixemul, gnu tool chain, various programs like Distant Suns and Digital Universe, operator modules for SView, ImageFx, ADPro, NetPBM, SOX and who knows what else that is "optimized for 060".

What is it with this sort of new trend of saying "most users don't need FPU"? "Most users" certainly "needed" it back in the days, or was that just a sales pitch? Using soft float is painful and slow on all archs, and the Apollo Core FPU has since the beginning been touted as insanely awesome. Personally, I have more use for FPU than AMMX and RTG, but then I am not a "most users" (a term used by "most developers" when trying to cover up shortcomings in their half-baked solutions).

Last edited by kolla on 04-May-2017 at 01:00 AM.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 1:38:28
#1142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5903
From: Unknown

@kolla

sigh, according to gunnar on a1k. fpu is still on the roadmap, most functions already implemented in vhdl in 1 cycle, as usual. albeit they still hesitate on details of implementation, in prospect of it being futureproof. interesting talk. the thing is, as the community provides very little actual support, what concerns workload, they are making their own priorities.

which is right,

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PR 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 8:36:02
#1143 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1843
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

Please support A1 XE too so we can buy the software.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 9:54:07
#1144 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1469
From: Norway

SimCity2000 AGA on Vampire development version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLgKRVVLE0M

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 13:33:29
#1145 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 786
From: Trondheim, Norway

@wawa

What kind of community support were they expecting?

Anyways - on one hand, it is argued that "the Apollo Core FPU is so utterly awesome that it blows everything else out of the water". On the other hand it is argued "most users don't need FPU".

Well, I know perfectly well what _I_ need - a backwards compatible FPU that allow me to run old legacy software that demands FPU. Too much to ask for, I suppose.

Last edited by kolla on 04-May-2017 at 01:39 PM.

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Signman 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 15:42:28
#1146 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2016
Posts: 84
From: Unknown

@kolla

They want community support in the area of competent programmers to help.
I am not sure who gets paid for this because they are making money on the sale now.
Maybe that's just Majsta.

There needs to be a financial incentive to develop these things otherwise it gets done when someone with the team gets around to it.

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vision 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 16:41:07
#1147 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2005
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@kolla

both statements are compatible

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 18:05:07
#1148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10795
From: Norway

@Signman

Well it depends on is the remaining Commodore Amiga users is just gamer's, or some who like use Amiga for a bit more, FPU is nice when need precision calculations, but it's not required if all you do is play platform games from 80's.

If there is lot people who won't to render graphics, do complex math, FPS games or stuff like that the FPU should be selling point, but somehow I doubt that considering you probably have Intel i7 doing that already many times faster than any FPGA based Amiga can do it.

Besides AmigaONE computers are a lot more geared towards power then any 680x0 Amiga is, then there is AROS that already has SMP support. Maybe it's just a lot of work for nothing as you say.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-May-2017 at 06:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-May-2017 at 06:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-May-2017 at 06:05 PM.

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Seiya 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 18:38:18
#1149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1401
From: Italia

most of the vampire interest users want to play whdload games or some 3D games.
FPU is irrilevant for their.
To be honest, a part Quake, what other games has intensive FPU requirements?

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OneTimer1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 20:33:30
#1150 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 307
From: Unknown

@Seiya

Quote:

Seiya wrote:

... what other games has intensive FPU requirements?


I think most games don't have FPU support.

There was a voxel space demo that used the FPU on a 060 as some kind of parallel running execution unit, AFAIK the same people made 'Shadow of the 3rd Moon', but a version not optimised for 060 should be faster on a Vampire then the 060 version on a 060 card ...

Some exotic hardware, some highly but strange optimised games or demos might have problems, even if the Vampire does everything right ... The Apollo team might fix this with alternative CPU cores.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 21:10:14
#1151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5903
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:
What kind of community support were they expecting?


http://apollo-.corecom/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5385&z=JzEPXq

the level of mindless complaints, considering what people are being delivered with, is simply amazing.

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billt 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 21:42:06
#1152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3044
From: Maryland, USA

@Seiya

Quote:
most of the vampire interest users want to play whdload games or some 3D games. FPU is irrilevant for their.


So are the SIMD things he wanted to add and was all excited about. Completely irrelevant to any and all existing Amiga and other 68k software... Yet there was some reason to do it, or was that abandoned? (I obviously don't have a Vampire board)

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billt 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 21:43:17
#1153 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3044
From: Maryland, USA

@Signman

Quote:
They want community support in the area of competent programmers to help.


What kind of programmers, to help in what context?

FPU instruction unit tests? In Verilog, VHDL, or C/Assembly? For a simulator or for on a real board? (Simulator is easier to indicate pass/fail, need a log file or GUI for actual board tests?) It woul db enice if both simulation and real board can run same test software, how to make that happen? Does anything exist in Suska tests that can be reused here?

Last edited by billt on 04-May-2017 at 09:49 PM.
Last edited by billt on 04-May-2017 at 09:48 PM.

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mbrantley 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 22:34:03
#1154 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 522
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

As I await my Vampire (it shipped!) let me chime in to say I will also wait patiently for fpu. But I do desire it. Never got into games. But I want to continue with my 3D retro stuff. I have non-fpu versions of LightWave, VistaPro and Scenery Animator at the ready, for now.

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Rob 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 22:52:13
#1155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5647
From: S.Wales

@billt

Quote:
So are the SIMD things he wanted to add and was all excited about. Completely irrelevant to any and all existing Amiga and other 68k software... Yet there was some reason to do it, or was that abandoned?


The SIMD unit is in place and is an Amiga implementation of MMX. There is already an MMX enabled version of Riva Player and the MMX instructions make a big difference compared to the normal executable.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3sqaBkk.png[/IMG]

Quote:
What kind of programmers, to help in what context?


Gunner says he need someone to build test case for the FPU. Presumably something that uses all the FPU instructions.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 23:02:45
#1156 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5903
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
FPU instruction unit tests?


yes. small testcases in asm i guess. apollo core is in vhdl i guess. i dont know how simulation works, but i think it might be both, simulation and real hardware, same as using winuae and then a real amiga machine for debugging.

simply contact gunnar on forum or irc if you like to help.

Last edited by wawa on 04-May-2017 at 11:04 PM.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 23:06:35
#1157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5903
From: Unknown

@mbrantley

Quote:
I have non-fpu versions of LightWave, VistaPro and Scenery Animator at the ready, for now


exactly. i dont understand this constant bragging how bad it is that apollo core doesnt provide fpu just now. almost all amiga software i can think of, even raytracers provide nonfpu binaries for the time being.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 23:09:24
#1158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10795
From: Norway

@wawa

I guess what he wont's is unit test.

Something like:

Input x / input y = result z, if true success, if false fail
Input x + input y = result z, if true success, if false fail
Input x * input y = result z, if true success, if false fail

I guess there is double and float operations.

the powerpc seams to only have double, and result is just truncated into float (single).


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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-May-2017 23:36:52
#1159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5903
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

you mean double precision?

i think that is one of the issues being discussed. double precision is _in_ of course. the question seems to be about 80bit, which seems to be necessary/favourable for such as trigonometrics.

Last edited by wawa on 04-May-2017 at 11:37 PM.

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smartroad 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 5-May-2017 7:51:52
#1160 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2005
Posts: 183
From: United Kingdom

I'd just like to buy one for my A1200 haha fpu or no fpu lol

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