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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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PosterThread
wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 0:01:44
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5314
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

cesare, honestly.. "68k fanatic", "ad hominem attack"," im forgetting your contributions", "conspiracy", "discrediting you", "my toy", .. that sounds weird..
im in no way associated with apollo team. im not going to buy it any soon, since i have no hardware for it. i have been critical about natami and gunnars attitude, im still not convinced with these isa enchancements. and im not a friend of closed source, in this current state of affairs. now i have asked you simple questions. impersonal. why have you changed your mind? i know others that did, but im asking you.

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fishy_fis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 3:34:06
#142 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1604
From: Australia

Granted a 68k based amiga system isnt going to deal with modern world formats very well, but within the amiga's own little world there's some quite capable software. Even on my 40mhz '040 +32meg fast+32gig cf card I could listen to music while chatting to people online while editting graphics, running video files (I was big into video conversion to amiga friendly formats for a while) and running a macintosh emulator running photoshop.
Kind of random examples, and I dont know whether I ever actually ran that particular combination of software together, but the point is I was never left wanting. It did what I wanted of it, for it, and I happily went about my business. Still do. It's not going to run latest version of Lightwave3d, or watch 4k video, but it does what I want from within an environment that sustains itself nicely.

Now, having said that, I foam at the mouth at something around the 150-200mhz '060 type performance. It'd open some new option previously unavailable to the machine. Either higher quality or smaller file sizes for video, mp3 rather than aiff/wav/etc playback for audio, faster emulation of other systems on the amiga and so on. Im not really interested in playing "me too" on a classic computer, but that sort of performance would make for a fantastic retro machine.

Oh, and sidebar, but there's a lot of software that uses a reasonable amount of space. Feeble Files is about 2.2Gig, Nightlong about 1.4gig, Napalm is a few hundred meg, Exodus2140, etc.

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QuikSanz 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 4:30:22
#143 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 989
From: Surf City - Huntington Beach, Ca.

@fishy_fis,

Well said! I used to think maybe 128Mb was good enough for ZorroII and 256Mb for ZorroIII but now with processors this fast maybe 2 and 4Gb. lol

Chris

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CodeSmith 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 4:38:41
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@retro

Quote:

retro wrote:
@CodeSmith

hmm now that there can make an 68*00 cpu via fpga i wonder iff the brilliant pepole could
make it duel aka http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=224
so there 2 cores it the system just see'em as one. could an vampyer like that be made ???


In theory it could be. If the FPGA is large enough and you can get the signal paths right you can fit two, four or even more cores. The problem is that amigaos doesn't support multicore, so a multicore vampyre would be in the same boat as the high end PPC systems.

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cdimauro 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 6:06:03
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1808
From: Germany

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@cdimauro

I really do not understand what your agenda is. Prove that you are more clever than most of us?

It's a forum, Olaf. Do you know what a forum is made for?

I'm also a technical guy with some background on using the 68K and the Amiga, so it's quite natural for me talking about that stuff.
Quote:
You do not like everything 68k related,

That's another lie: prove it!
Quote:
see any activity as waste of time.

I evaluate pros and cons of give an opinion. Like any other.
Quote:
I (and most here) are fine with it. Then why you keep posting here.

See above.
Quote:
Many here like the "old stuff" and we want better hardware with faster processor and more ram that makes it possible to develop and run better software. Not because it makes sense because everyone here for sure uses a modern system for everyday tasks, just because it is possible and we want to do it. And there are certainly a lot of people of that sort out there, retro is trendy now and a FPGA based system is different and cool. It will not win the world, not become mainstream and not beat standard hardware, we use it just because it is there. Either you understand that or not (I assume not).

You assume too many wrong things about. You like it? Do it.
Quote:
If not then just accept it and do not talk down the work of others, that really makes a bad impression and that hits back.

Again, that's the fruit of your distorted vision, because you see attacked your favorite platform.

But before telling me something like that, you've to take a look at yourself and your attitude, with your 68K crusade and against other post-Amiga platforms.

However the most important thing is that you should accept the fact that I can express my opinion. Like anyone here.


@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@cdimauro

cesare, honestly.. "68k fanatic", "ad hominem attack"," im forgetting your contributions", "conspiracy", "discrediting you", "my toy", .. that sounds weird..
im in no way associated with apollo team.

Who said that? I said that you're a 68K fanatic, which is a totally different thing.
Quote:
im not going to buy it any soon, since i have no hardware for it. i have been critical about natami and gunnars attitude, im still not convinced with these isa enchancements.

Why aren't you convinced?
Quote:
and im not a friend of closed source, in this current state of affairs.

Because it prevents changes or ricompilation, I suppose. However it's the most common piece of software, and we have to deal with it.
Quote:
now i have asked you simple questions. impersonal. why have you changed your mind? i know others that did, but im asking you.

First you have to tell me what was changed, and prove it. Then I'll give my answer.


@Zylesea

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@pavlor: Amiga games don't require a lot of disk space, and even much less RAM.

Since they are mostly 2D, they don't require much processing power too. Only 3D games require it, but for Blitter-based 3D games it's the Blitter which limits much more the speed of the game, so usually a 68020 gives a good performance. Texture mapped games require much more power, but a 68040 processor and fast RAM should be capable to sustain it.

Honestly I don't know what games really require more than a 68040 and/or more than 8MB of fast RAM.


Probably 8 MB and a 030/50 is enough for most 68k stuff, but why stay there when the exceeding specs come "for free".

Absolutely. And if having more costs a few dollars, for me makes sense to spend money for having a better platform.
Quote:
The issue about using fpga is rather that hardwarewise it's simpler than getting real 68k silicon + some old obsure RAM chips.
Pop is some fpga and some cheap current ram chip and just use it. And while having the resources on your board anyway it'll be a given that you aim to get the maximum out of it. Additional speed and RAM will not hurt.

Adding RAM should be easy, but gaining more speed requires work, which can delay a lot the product release.

That's way I suggested from very long time to release the product earlier, even if it's not top-of-the-speed, and then follow an upgrade path. So that people can immediately get it, use it, and even test it.
Quote:
Heck, this vampire board impressed me at least so much, that grabbed my A600 out of storage, blowed the dust off it and powered it on first time in years to check wheter it's still fine.




@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@retro

Quote:

retro wrote:
@CodeSmith

hmm now that there can make an 68*00 cpu via fpga i wonder iff the brilliant pepole could
make it duel aka http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=224
so there 2 cores it the system just see'em as one. could an vampyer like that be made ???


In theory it could be. If the FPGA is large enough and you can get the signal paths right you can fit two, four or even more cores. The problem is that amigaos doesn't support multicore, so a multicore vampyre would be in the same boat as the high end PPC systems.

The used FPGA is large enough to hold another core or even two. However, and like you stated, Amiga had no multicore support, and it's unlikely that a retro platform can have it.

P.S. Sorry, no time to read and fix typos.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 8:40:35
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 7952
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Tina again?

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OnlyMe 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 16:41:18
#147 ]
Member
Joined: 18-Sep-2015
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

So I hear. I personally can't wait. Have got my A600 waiting for the upgrade.

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cdimauro 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:36:25
#148 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1808
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Tina again?

Too cryptic. TiNA what?

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WOSPUPOS4 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:22:24
#149 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Posts: 213
From: Unknown

Just wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ-RsWLd2g

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Fransexy 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:41:18
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2310
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@WOSPUPOS4

Quote:

WOSPUPOS4 wrote:
Just wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ-RsWLd2g




Last edited by Fransexy on 11-Dec-2015 at 12:25 AM.
Last edited by Fransexy on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:43 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:46:19
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 7952
From: Unknown

@WOSPUPOS4

2.28 vs 4.26 in favour of Vampire.

Nice!


Too bad we don´t know Blizzard 1260 numbers for comparison.



Edit x: There must be way how to repair thread layout.

Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:48 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:48 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 10-Dec-2015 at 10:47 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 22:52:14
#152 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 1970
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@pavlor

Impressive. But reminds me also how slow 68k actually is. On my Powerbook the same scene takes 9s. 16 times the speed. And that not even native but by Trance.

_________________
My programs: www.via-altera.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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gregthecanuck 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 0:47:45
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 728
From: Vancouver, Canada

@Zylesea

Hey my AIX server will run it even faster but that's not the point.

For comparison sakes, please remember that:

- the core is running in what - a 2 or 3 watt power envelope?
- at the moment the core's memory read performance is about half what it should be: 150MB/s instead of 300MB/s (according to Gunnar will improve in the next few months)
- and there are likely some remaining core optimizations as well - they have a *lot* of free real-estate on the FPGA

In terms of grunt/watt this core is doing pretty well I would say.

But this test is a great baseline to gauge future performance increases.

Cheers!

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OnlyMe 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 1:18:52
#154 ]
Member
Joined: 18-Sep-2015
Posts: 15
From: Unknown

Great comparison video. This is the type of real worldy stuff we need to see (I like to see) not whether it plays Superfrog or not. Now I am really impressed.

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NovaCoder 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 3:57:44
#155 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2008
Posts: 450
From: Melbourne (Australia)

@Zylesea

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
@pavlor

Impressive. But reminds me also how slow 68k actually is. On my Powerbook the same scene takes 9s. 16 times the speed. And that not even native but by Trance.


As far as performance goes, if they can match the fastest 'real' accelerators then that is already quite an achievement.

Last edited by NovaCoder on 11-Dec-2015 at 03:58 AM.

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olegil 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 6:21:21
#156 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5883
From: Work

@NovaCoder

I hope they're focussing more on getting it release worthy than getting it perfect at this point.

I wonder if my aunt still has an A600 in her attic.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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BoingBear 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 10:22:10
#157 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2015
Posts: 63
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@NovaCoder

I hope they're focussing more on getting it release worthy than getting it perfect at this point.

I wonder if my aunt still has an A600 in her attic.


Yes, please finalize the design and begin production of the hardware, so more of us users can begin playing with what is working now. The years of waiting only allow more existing users to lose patience and leave all parts of the Amiga community.

The core can still be improved upon and updated cores can be released AFTER the hardware is in the hands of the users who are willing to be beta testers, and don't mind that the work is not 100% completed.

Maybe more people will be available to help development, if the hardware is in their hands.

Come on Gunnar, give us what we want! Don't let the Vampire2 board and your plans for other accelerators and stand alone systems turn into another Natami failure that for one reason, or another never gets manufactured, except for a few people who are working on it, that have prototypes.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 13:00:13
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 7952
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

For another perspective...

WinUAE/OS4 on Core i5-2500K 3.3 GHz:

0:50 default settings (= no antialiasing)
3:10 Antialiasing = always, Oversampling = 2x2


Good to see emulation under emulation is faster than 68060 even with crippled FPU (softfloats).

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Zylesea 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 13:51:59
#159 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 1970
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@NovaCoder

I think the demo is pretty impresve and leaves not much doubt that this will be the fastest "68k" accelerator so far.
I like the project, my post above was just to put this into relation. The Vampire will be fast, but it's still far, far off from ppcs, let alone current x64 (whci noone expected, promised or intended though).

_________________
My programs: www.via-altera.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 11-Dec-2015 14:00:45
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5314
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

if you look at the comparison of speed increase the core gives against the original a600 configuration, around 150 times in some cases, then is the ten times less difference to some g4 mac still worth such a mention? remember, hardware wise this is just a second take on the issue if you count vampire1 in, it is still a preliminary release, its still a budget offer,and so on.

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