@QuikSanz

Of course unemployment isnot Zero in the UK. Situation is pretty much like in Germany. The usual English guy is not willing to work for those Conditions the deliberate ppl from bulgaria or Romania are. Hence, cost for farmers and eventually for the customers will rise. If you close borders for the East European that is. And if you don't close borders, you could stay in the EU in first place.
Really, i can understand that ppl don't like the EU, but the alternatives are worse. Better approach: Change the EU, don't leave it.

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@Zylesea

Easier said then done.
Cameron tried and didn't get very far.

Cheers

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@TiredofLife

Quote:

Cameron tried and didn't get very far.

Tried? Cried! Only words for domestic public, not real proposals for other european leaders.


What changes of EU you have in mind?

I think this article sums it up rather nicely.

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

Thank You for the mess.

Shares dropped well and after buying went well up.

Please do it again so we can buy more Amigastuff.

@pavlor

The public and other politicians said much the same as yourself.
Without being prviy to the meetings, I coildn't honestly say how hard he tried.

As for changes, I think we would have to start a new thread.
But obvious ones about waste would be a good start.
The whole Brussels/Strasbourg thing is a joke and thats just for starters.

Personally, a group for trade and working together for common goals would suit me.
No need for political intergration.

Cheers

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@Overflow

A very good read, cheers.

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In my view, the problem is not EU, it is UK. The British society is really stuck back in the mediaeval times in so many ways, it still has "feudality" at its core, removing EU fixes nothing. Look at the English politicians, most of them went to Eton and belong to the same social "club", for them brexit was primarily not about the country, but about their own ambitions, a game. It just happened to blow up in their faces.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: The British society is really stuck back in the mediaeval times in so many ways,

I value Umberto Eco pretty much. And he said, he fears and guesses society is on the way back into some mediaeval times again...

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@kolla

You are right about society here, it's chronic.
Don't know about the EU though.
It was a major slap in the face to the Eton brigade.
It will depend how they react.
Absolute denial then you will be right, nothing will change.

Cheers

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@Zylesea

True, for once, I agree with everything you said

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@Zylesea,

Medieval times? No, the Islamic fundamentalists have traded their scimitars for butcher knives and guns! Tell me more bovine scatology.

Last edited by QuikSanz on 30-Jun-2016 at 06:09 AM.
Last edited by QuikSanz on 30-Jun-2016 at 06:09 AM.

Referendum for political union should be done from the start not by stealth e.g. Australia's federation process.

EU has to be careful handling UK's exit e.g. if UK joins NAFTA, another western trade block would be at Europe's door step. The red line issue for UK is the unlimited migration from EU member countries.

Population size
NAFTA = ~470 million
EU = ~500 million


EU without UK = ~435 million
NAFTA with UK = 535 million

Last edited by Hammer on 30-Jun-2016 at 10:17 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 30-Jun-2016 at 10:17 AM.

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@Overflow
Very good article

There is only one thing : I dont think those people are deserving the name "Elite"

"Elite" in french got a very special sense it is "the better one in his domain"
But all those people from bourgeoisy,media,journalists are only a "cast" that want to preserve their privileges

In fact they are very mediocre as they dont know much the Economy/People/Real facts nor can serve as an example of "self made man reussite"

For me real France's Elite is more people like
Cédric Villani (Fields medal for Maths)
Thomas Piketty (Economy)
Teddy Riner (Judoka)
etc....

Also there is a debate about to call those people:
Neo-Conservative in the US where they are pro-guns,pro-bible,pro-life...
Neo-Liberals in France because they just want the unrestricted liberty of free trade and dont bothers much about the old conservative topics

But as said my colleague here at the office ( a former trotskist...) "there is only one correct word to call them there are simply capitalist"
I would just add "there are capitalists in the very raw 19th century way . Nothing neo or new in fact"

Alain Thellier

Last edited by thellier on 30-Jun-2016 at 10:14 AM.

@thellier

They might call it free trade/liberalism, but its far from that.
As soon as banks fails/overextends, they get bailed out. So basically; socialism for the banks/multinational corporations, capitalism/darwinism for everyone else (you and me).

Last edited by Overflow on 30-Jun-2016 at 11:11 AM.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: EU has to be careful handling UK's exit e.g. if UK joins NAFTA, another western trade block would be at Europe's door step. The red line issue for UK is the unlimited migration from EU member countries.

First of all, I am not betting man but I will send you 100 USD via Paypal if the UK joins the North American Free Trade Agreement and stays outside of the European common market...

Secondly, you might be interested to know that the service sector contributes close to 80% (!!!) of the UK´s gross demestic product. Good luck selling services to countries that are 6,000+ km from where your local businesses and service workers are located...

Thirdly, a sizable chunk of the service sector is represented by the financial industry in London which, until now, had been the de-facto financial center of the European Union. Close to 12% of the UK´s entire tax income is paid by the UK´s financial services industry. It should be obvious what would happen if all / most EU-related financial services were to be moved to continental Europe because the UK is no longer affiliated with the EU in any meaningful way... The likely loss of tax revenue would be so substantial that it makes the UK´s much-discussed EU membership fees (both the real and the widly finflated numbers) look rather meaningfess.

Last edited by ASiegel on 30-Jun-2016 at 12:01 PM.

The loss of the service tax revenue is defintly going to be felt on a short and mid timespan, but the issues adressed in Greenwalds article has gradually grown since Reagan and Bill Clintons de-regulation. Will shortterm losses be offset by longterm gains from stopping the advancing corporatism?

Dwight D. Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex already in 17th January 1961, and thats from a 5 star General.
Its rather sad to see what he adressed back then is now a reality;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gahL5j4ack

You could say that monetary intrest has been fighting back ever since Roosevelts days, but the actions of Reagan and Clinton really accelerated the corporate takeover.

I cant find a recording, but Franklin D. Roosevelt Letter to the Democratic Convention is worth reading even today (espesially);

Quote:

July 18, 1940 Members of the Convention: In the century in which we live, the Democratic Party has received the support of the electorate only when the party, with absolute clarity, has been the champion of progressive and liberal policies and principles of government. The party has failed consistently when through political trading and chicanery it has fallen into the control of those interests, personal and financial, which think in terms of dollars instead of in terms of human values. The Republican Party has made its nominations this year at the dictation of those who, we all know, always place money ahead of human progress. The Democratic Convention, as appears clear from the events of today, is divided on this fundamental issue. Until the Democratic Party through this convention makes overwhelmingly clear its stand in favor of social progress and liberalism, and shakes off all the shackles of control fastened upon it by the forces of conservatism, reaction, and appeasement, it will not continue its march of victory. It is without question that certain political influences pledged to reaction in domestic affairs and to appeasement in foreign affairs have been busily engaged behind the scenes in the promotion of discord since this Convention convened. Under these circumstances, I cannot, in all honor, and will not, merely for political expediency, go along with the cheap bargaining and political maneuvering which have brought about party dissension in this convention. It is best not to straddle ideals. In these days of danger when democracy must be more than vigilant, there can be no connivance with the kind of politics which has internally weakened nations abroad before the enemy has struck from without. It is best for America to have the fight out here and now. I wish to give the Democratic Party the opportunity to make its historic decision clearly and without equivocation. The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time. By declining the honor of the nomination for the presidency, I can restore that opportunity to the convention. I so do.

And its worth watching Oliver Stones Documentary. A complete version seems to be available on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wxJlMH3jZA&list=PL3oAekbqhGV9oHaikpecgCDdeHizamdg1&index=1

Last edited by Overflow on 30-Jun-2016 at 12:33 PM.

@ASiegel

Quote:

First of all, I am not betting man but I will send you 100 USD via Paypal if the UK joins the North American Free Trade Agreement and stays outside of the European common market...

This is for worst case scenarios.

Canada and EU has a "free trade" agreement i.e. CETA. Would EU include "unlimited migration" with Canada?

Quote:

Secondly, you might be interested to know that the service sector contributes close to 80% (!!!) of the UK´s gross demestic product.

Around 77.8% of GDP as of Q1 2014.

https://direct.tnt.co.uk/blog/the-uks-top-five-trading-partners-of-2015
1. USA (non-EU, trade surplus)
2. Germany (trade deficit)
3. China (non-EU, trade deficit)
4. Switzerland (non-EU, trade surplus)
5. Netherlands (trade deficit)

"Globalization" says Hi.

Quote:

Good luck selling services to countries that are 6,000+ km from where your local businesses and service workers are located...

Distance between UK and NAFTA is 5804.29 Km

USA's Alaska to New York is 5,344 Km
USA's Atlantic coast (NC) to Pacific coast (CA) is 4,180 km
Canada's east to west width is 5,158 Km
Australia's east to west width is 4,100 Km

Last edited by Hammer on 30-Jun-2016 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 30-Jun-2016 at 02:01 PM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: Canada and EU has a "free trade" agreement i.e. CETA. Would EU include "unlimited migration" with Canada?

Yet, they don't have this agreement (CETA). And there's hope is it will fail. As well as TTIP.

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@iggy

Quote:

I don't know about worse, as you will never convince me to vote for Trump. But it is a quite dismal election year. How are two candidates with approval ratings below 30% even qualified to run for office?

I'm sure that's a rhetorical question, but Plato pondered the same a couple millennia ago in Republic.

Quote:

The ancient Greek philosopher Plato rejected Athenian democracy on the basis that such democracies were anarchic societies without internal unity, that they followed citizens' impulses rather than pursuing the common good, that democracies are unable to allow a sufficient number of their citizens to have their voices heard, and that such democracies were typically run by fools. Plato attacked Athenian democracies for mistaking anarchy for freedom. The lack of coherent unity in Athenian democracy made Plato conclude that such democracies were a mere collection of individuals occupying a common space rather than a form of political organization. As a result, Plato accused such democracies of lacking rules outside where its citizens see fit and lacking leadership due to the notion of equality in Athenian democracy. Plato claimed that in Athenian democracy, individuals' pursuit of their own desires led to self-centredness and conflict rather than the pursuit of the common good. Due to the citizens being free to pursue their passions, Plato claimed that rational leadership was impossible in Athenian democracy as elected representatives served the citizens' passions. Plato claimed that the significance of the voice of the individual in an Athenian democracy depreciates as the population of the democracy increases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-democratic_thought#Plato.27s_rejection_of_Athenian_democracy

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