@QuikSanz

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QuikSanz wrote: @Rob, Socialism fails every-time it's tried. Just ask anyone from Venezuela.

In Cuba actually worked very well, if only they had had free from USA embargo that prevented western countries to trade with Cuba they will be a florid nation nowadays.

They lack of democracy (and they could have made better steps in the past in that direction, but state grants access to instruction to any kid from primary school upto university, and healthcare is granted to any citizen, and this is better than USA.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@QuikSanz

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QuikSanz wrote: @BigD, Conservatives in one country are not the same as the next and from what I've seen from the Republican party here is a bunch of spineless politicians that have thrown in with the liberals on globalism. The lack of identity will destroy any country. They must assimilate.

Funny that I must always check who is the writer, as a liberal in USA slang is a lefty person, while in the best part of Europe liberal means right winded people who want strong national powers, free trade worldwide and lesser rights for labourers, so I should accomodate the meaning of the post depending on which side of Atlantic Ocean it has been written.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele,

The US has the only real embargo with Cuba. Other countries trade and visit. They won't let the folks keep money. no power in that.

Here there is a big difference between Republican and Conservative. Many talk conservative but don't walk that way. If it quacks like a duck..........

Chris

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: They're entitled to their view but not entitled to try and This country will be back in our hands and if we honour God, work hard and stop killing 200,000 unborn children every year due to our ridiculously liberal abortion laws.then there is no reason God won't bless this country with economic prosperity.

Apart from the fact that a woman has full rights to handle her body in the way she pleases, including unwanted maternity... Said so remember that God design is imperscrutable and he rises and lower nations despite of the faith of its inhabitants right to realize Its superior designs upon all mankind, in order to let Scriptures being true in the end of the times.

In other terms better let young people got teach use of condoms and other contraptcective tecniques, and make safe sex preventing unwanted pregnancies, than kill unborn babies with abortions then...

Quote:

If we act like greedy, ungrateful and petulant people like we seem to have become then yes we'll probably be a persecuted underclass in an Islamic state within three generations. Either way coming out of the EU at least puts our laws and benefit system / border control back under our control.

You already had control on your borders as long as you were already out of Schengen Area and people require a pass to enter UK borders.

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And if our politicians can't negotiate a deal on free trade along with immigration restriction then someone isn't earning their ridiculous salaries.

When you will abandon this ridiculous way of thinking that entering a union of peoples greater than any single nation, and its little panic-safe place of tiny borders, does not require renouncing part of sovranity in order to create a greater identity and greater institutions, then its is better you had left.

And if it is lack of democracy in EU you were scared of, your politicians (the same well-paid people you democratically voted) missed various time opportunity of join other nations that may think the same as your nation and togheter reach a majority and started reforming European Union according to your desires and make it a more democratic place.

And now you missed this opportunity the last time as you voted for seclude yourself.

Said so, yes earns of politicians are ridicolously high, but not only in GB.
Here in Italy we have a point as our politicians have the most ridicolous high salaries of entire western world, and they can also being appointed of a pension based on their salaries if only they sit in Parliament for an entire legislature period, and sure they are lesser productive than any English politician, including the worst one, they are not servant of the people, they care only their personal gain and are preys for lobbists and prone to the interests of multinational firms.

We are trying to overwhelm this situation but it is an harsh war to fight with rules that were changed by them at any victory by the people.
Some years ago italians voted a referendum for keep public any water supply furnitures, and privates must leave entire sector of acqueducts, but actually this sovereign people decision was widely unattended by our parliament, and there is no decision or any law made for suing cities and municipalities that still act as none happened, continuing privates taking care of water supply furnitures.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

You seem to have been the lone voice of reason here for the last day or so.
Good luck with that.

Personally, I intend to enjoy my celebration of our Independence Day without being drawn into discussions that remind me of John Cleese's line "No, you came here for an argument...".
Its largely been pointless gain saying with limited intellectual process occuring.

@iggy

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Believe it or not it is possible.

This wouldn´t be possible in my country even hundred years ago (well, our politicians like police-state-tending measures, so voting only for citizens is not hard to achieve here ).

@Raffaele

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They lack of democracy (and they could have made better steps in the past in that direction

Don´t fool yourself. Communism and democracy don´t work well together. We elected communists to lead our government back in 1946 and it was not so good idea... Sure, we tried for second time in 1968 (you know, people here really liked socialism), but our "friends" libarated us from contrarevolution (or what their propaganda called it back then).

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @Raffaele You seem to have been the lone voice of reason here for the last day or so. Good luck with that. Personally, I intend to enjoy my celebration of our Independence Day without being drawn into discussions that remind me of John Cleese's line "No, you came here for an argument...". Its largely been pointless gain saying with limited intellectual process occuring.

Hmm, that's a point.
How come you get to celebrate without Raffaele getting on your case.

@Raffaele

So what the diff?

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If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@TiredofLife

I actually agree with a lot of what Raf has posted.
Personally I am conflicted over Britain.
I can't decide whether staying or going is the better course, and I probably am not the best person to make judgemental statements about the British as I am of Irish descent.

Obviously the US benefited by splitting from the British, and I am a big fan of national sovereignty.
In a Britons place, I am not sure I would want to share these rest of Europes issues.
Then again, I am not sure why the Germans would either.

I just had a nice little meal, part of which was cooked outside over charcoal. We have a freshly baked cherry pie cooling in the kitchen and some ice cream to go with it.
And we have some cool Chinese fireworks purchased in Pennsylvania for later tonight.
I have to get up early in the morning to start some business classes at a local University.

And from here out, I will focus on our current political mess. We have some closet facists here pretending to be conservative Republicans that want to elect yet another entertainer as President.
Conservative? Republican? Not really.
The most conservative writer I am fond of, George Will, is so disgusted with this that he has announced he is leaving the party.

I almost want to see them get their way, as the path to destruction they want to follow would put the final nail in the coffin for their kind.

@iggy

Can't say I agree with Raf much.
His early postings seem to suggest a touch of bitterness over events in Italy compared with those in Britain.
Seems to me that is clouding his judgement.

My stance on the EU is the same a life in general.
You can argue/reason/persuade for ever.
But at some point it is much more sensible to understand what can be agreed and when the differences are too great.

It's clear that some EU countries want the political union.
Britain seems to be continually at odds with this and fighting a losing battle.
It may be that other countries are fighting this a much as we are, but I haven't seen it.
That could be because the British press don't comment much on it, I honestly don't know.

I could go some cherry pie and ice cream just now, enjoy

Quote:

I almost want to see them get their way, as the path to destruction they want to follow would put the final nail in the coffin for their kind.

I must admit, I had similar feelings about some of our politicians.

Cheers

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If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@iggy

Just seen this -

https://www.rt.com/usa/349436-texit-calexit-independence-movements/

Do we need a new thread?

Cheers

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If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @TiredofLife Obviously the US benefited by splitting from the British, and I am a big fan of national sovereignty. In a Britons place, I am not sure I would want to share these rest of Europes issues. Then again, I am not sure why the Germans would either.

Because it's a giving and taking. It should be a win-win situation for all. As a German I think the EU has quite more advantages than disadvantages.
There are economical advantages: easy trade, same currency with many member states, easy travel of men and goods.
There are advantages of personal freedom: If I want to go elsewhere in teh EU I just can do it w/o asking for any permission. Just lik ein the US, if you decide to go to Florida, Alaska or Idaho, you can just do it. Try the same with North Corea...
Warranty of inner European peace: i guess Europe had enough of war in its history. Especially the relation between France and Germany was, well, "a bit explosive". Millions died because Germans thought to fire on French, other mIllions died because French thought to fire on Germans. Was it a good idea? Definitely not. After many years and many fought wars and millions killed we came to the conclusion to try it together and not against each other. Worked out fairly well for the last ~70 years.
Cost of all this is to give some of the money away (that - at least partly - was earned only because of existance of the EU) and a share of national souvereignity. I think that price is rather fair.
Sadly the UK will leave this peace warranting construct now. And I am not sure wheter the northern Ireleand conflicts would have ended w/o UK and ireland being member of the EU. Now there is a real border again. I wouldn't be too surprised if that conflict gets hot again. I would be sad though, but not surprised.

Nonetheless I think the EU is in a deep crisis and needs quite some serious reforming. Maybe go a few steps back to readjust and then go into a better future.

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@Zylesea

Quote:

Warranty of inner European peace

You are deluded if you think that another Euro crisis like the one that happened in Greece couldn't lead to war within the EU. A crisis and bankruptcy of a EU state where Germany isn't willing to bail them out could easily lead to war just as it did when the League of Nations were too harsh regarding reparations for WW1 overburdening Germany.

The UK is better off outside this carefully balanced house of cards ruled by an unelected (by EU citizens) European Commission. It's a form of tyranny by stealth with the tentacles of bureaucracy and control extending slowly over time. How exactly would an EU citizen attempt to remove Jean-Claude Juncker if we felt he was failing us? How exactly are the proportionally represented MEPs individually accountable to us rather than the pan-european political party blocks than instruct their votes and help develop their careers as long as they play along?

Do any of the UK voters actually care about the European Elections and are they not just an attempt to give an illusion of democratic credence to a corrupt and totalitarian state in the making? I suppose a totalitarian state is a good totalitarian state as long as its economy stays relatively prosperous? As soon as the stack of cards collapses then riots, chaos and war will result and no amount of political red tape and ratified treaties would stop people without hope rising against a perceived prosperous country taking advantage i.e. a rich, powerful and influential Germany.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Zylesea

I too have to admit that it is troubling that if Greece defaults Germany will take a bath.
The German economy is remarkably healthy.
The rest of Europe...not so much.

@TiredofLife

Interesting article.
Unlikely it would ever occur, but the financial points are valid.

Plus...
Once the Texans are outnumbered by Mexican immigrants a vote could pass reverting them to a Mexican territory.
And when the big quake hits California (and its already over 100 years overdue), we wouldn't have to bail out the people in that State for building around the biggest fault line in North America.

We would still have NYC, the majority of the agriculturally productive areas that don't have water issues, and a lot less people with attitudes.
No puffed up Texan chests or New Age Cali fruit cakes.

Sounds like a winner.

@BigD

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You are deluded if you think that another Euro crisis like the one that happened in Greece couldn't lead to war within the EU

Unfortunately your argument fails to account for the tiny little detail that it didn't lead to a war...

@iggy

For me it was also interesting to see the size of the states in question, compared to countries in Europe.
Although I know the US is a big country, those comparisons helped to demonstrate the scale.

Cheers

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If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

Yanis Varoufakis on "Europe, our common home, is disintegrating".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glBIv3cH32o

@TiredofLife

Both Texas and California have a lot of open, unused space.
Its a common theme in the US.
It makes driving through areas like Montana kind of remarkable (less people than livestock in some areas).

But yes, we have some gigantic States.
Conversly, my State (the second smallest) is only 100 miles long and at its narrowest point it is only 10 miles wide.
And we still serve as home to more corporations than any other State in the US (its a tax thing).

@pavlor

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pavlor wrote: @wolfe Quote: and those 20-40 million non citizen's who will be voting. How that is even possible in developed country?

Simple, If they don't require you to show an ID what's to stop you? Happens every election. Politicians don't want ID to be used on the of chance they get an extra vote.

It's stupid . . .

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Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.