@Deniil715

>All of this is not because of EU, it's because the world moved forward towards globalisation, and because China has rose up to be a strong producer.

I fully disagre : This didnt happen without reasons :
if EU and USA big companies hadnt promoted the idea to make enter China in GATT it will never have happened and China will have stay some kinda big size North Korea
If EU hadnt created/promoted big ports for containers ships from China it will never have happened

Stop to say it happen because it cant be different (the TINA thing..)
USA & EU truly MADE HAPPEN this globalisation those last 20 years

This exactlt what is happening with TAFTA/TTIP right now = it will PRODUCE the mass unemployed people of 2030 ... and in 2030 someone like will you will say "It must have happened we have no choice"

Also do you know that the CETA (free trade Canada - EU) risk to be considered a not mixed treaty (ie only economic) so will NOT be ratified by national parliaments = once again no democraty in EU

Britain just has proved today that things can (or just may?) change

@Raffaele
Seems you finally also think that EU is not democratic
BTW remenber that France also had the chance (....as you said) to vote NO to the european constitution in 2005 ... but this vote was ignored some years later

So perhaps we will have once again that EU political program for the Brexit too

#define YES 1
#define NO 0

result=vote();

if(result==NO)
while (result!=YES)
{
result=vote();

if(majority_change())
result=YES;
}


Alain Thellier

[double post removed]

Last edited by thellier on 24-Jun-2016 at 10:42 AM.

@K-L

+1

_________________
Tygre
Scientific Progress Goes Boing!

@thellier

Quote:

la liberté ou la mort

Never heard of it, you may be confusing France with Greece or New Hampshire?

_________________
Tygre
Scientific Progress Goes Boing!

@thellier

Quote:

thellier wrote: @Deniil715 >All of this is not because of EU, it's because the world moved forward towards globalisation, and because China has rose up to be a strong producer. I fully disagre : This didnt happen without reasons : if EU and USA big companies hadnt promoted the idea to make enter China in GATT it will never have happened and China will have stay some kinda big size North Korea If EU hadnt created/promoted big ports for containers ships from China it will never have happened Stop to say it happen because it cant be different (the TINA thing..) USA & EU truly MADE HAPPEN this globalisation those last 20 years This exactlt what is happening with TAFTA/TTIP right now = it will PRODUCE the mass unemployed people of 2030 ... and in 2030 someone like will you will say "It must have happened we have no choice"

Of course they made it happen! Trade treaties are good! Mass unemployment, well... what about the mass *employment* in the far east? Also remember that we don't only import stuff from China, we also export a lot of stuff too, and to/from EU. Once China gets up to a higher living standard (which is happening very fast as we speak) they will also start to demand higher salaries and shorter work days => more expensive stuff. It'll balance out in time.

We just sit here on our asses doing as little as possible for as much money as possible, while demanding the cheapest stuff. Clearly that equation leads to fewer jobs in some areas.

Is the solution to close trade areas to force people to buy expensive locally produced stuff while having lower salaries? Going backwards in time? If we want to be competitive towards the chinese, we have to produce more (i.e. work longer hours) for less (lower wages), just like the chinese. Do we want that? Of course not Going back in time is not an option. Global treaties is the future, trying to block that is futile.

If there will be mass unemployment it will be because of automation, not because we try to have a global market. Locking yourself up is not the solution to your perceived problem.

Quote:

la liberté ou la mort

That'll be more like "live alone and die"

Last edited by Deniil715 on 24-Jun-2016 at 01:32 PM.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@thread

So, now that Britain has left the building, how does this affect all of your points of view?

@iggy

The solution to all our problems: Vampire for A1200!

I'm really happy with the outcome of this referendum, which finally put an end to this fanatic and anti-historical project called EU
An anti-popular, anti-democratic unreformable system which only served oligarchics interests, bankers and of course the US so to speak ..

History teaches that democracy and social justice will be possible only within national borders .. and so it will happen again .. a bad day for globalization's lovers, the capitalists, but a good day for the workers

_________________
BACK FOR THE FUTURE

http://www.betatesting.it/backforthefuture

Sam440ep Flex 800 Mhz 1 GB Ram + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6
AmigaOne XE G3 800 Mhz - 640 MB Ram - Radeon 9200 SE + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6

@Deniil715

Quote:

Trade treaties are good

Are you sure you are from Sweden?
Because you sound like someone from the US.

Treaties that destroy a nations maufacturing sector or other forms of productivity are not in the intetests of the citizens of that country.

And until Chinese goods improve significantly in quality, the equivication that they are substitutes for goods made elsewhere is questionable.

@samo79

Quote:

but a good day for the workers

Doubt it. Not in the UK anyway. I started to type a more passionate response, but I'm a bit tired of it all now, need time to regroup.

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@samo79

Quote:

An anti-popular, anti-democratic unreformable system which only served oligarchics interests, bankers and of course the US so to speak .

What makes you think we care?
Its been greatly profitable for German bankers.
But we get most of our goods from China these days.

Is there some reason to always point toward us when resolving your own problems?
We are far too busy destroying our own institutions and personal freedoms to be that involved in European politics.

@Overflow

Quote:

Thats the "voting for the lesser of two evils" mentality US voters is facing with Hillary and Trump.

Good observation.
And the troubling fact is there are more than two candidates.

>we also export a lot of stuff too, and to/from EU.

You are not living in reality but in a dreamed Europe just see the figure :

http://www.merics.org/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_01-eu-china-trade-volume-trade-balance-01_d61c92c692.jpg

For those not familiar with economics it means Europe lost around 100-200 billions euros per year in the economic war vs China

What at great success :-/


>"la liberté ou la mort " Never heard of it, you may be confusing ...
Deputy Larevelliere-Lepaux proposed this sentence to be written on France flag after the revolution
(essentially meaning "we will not come back to royalty but better die for the Republic)
https://books.google.fr/books?id=-MZBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA66&dq=%22la+libert%C3%A9+ou+la+mort%22&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHmfaV5MDNAhWDyRoKHVlbCZQQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22la%20libert%C3%A9%20ou%20la%20mort%22&f=false

Of course initially the phrase was greek as other concepts like
republic, democracy, senat...

Alain Thellier

I believie mankind is just stupid.
China here and China there..
We are living in a globally connected world.
We are Livin in a highly "automatized" world.
Tendencies are that everything productive will be done by machines in a very near future.

3D- Printing and combionations of robotics and additive manufacturing will beat erery chinese.. every human.

After the swiss NO to the "guaranteed citizen's income" in switzerland, the brexit is the second dumb ass decision based on egoistic attidudes by some idiots.

Oh Boy.. repeat.. let's throw "working togetter" ideas overboard and prepare for some battles like on the Krim.

Who knows how many of your politician are on russian pay list : )

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: Doubt it. Not in the UK anyway.

There'll be plenty of employment opportunities in the army once Spain invades Gibraltar.

Seriously though, economy collapsed overnight, weak pound, expensive petrol, talks of breaking up both the UK and the EU, we'll soon have a prime minister nobody wants, companies already talking of relocating.... I fail to see any positives.

I was firmly "IN", but even I'm surprised at how quickly an "OUT" result has descended into chaos.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@ASiegel

milk quotas were just an example that is not Britain forced to follow rules intended not to harm different nations, or really unfair like banking risk-prevention system that involve depositors money instead of banks themselves...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

Quote:

In last 8 hours, UK lost $350bn, which is a greater amount than they contributed to EU budget over last 15 years - including rebate #Brexit

Guy Verhofstad

Last edited by pixie on 24-Jun-2016 at 05:59 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@thellier

Quote:

thellier wrote: @Raffaele Seems you finally also think that EU is not democratic BTW remenber that France also had the chance (....as you said) to vote NO to the european constitution in 2005 ... but this vote was ignored some years later Alain Thellier

Actually I am thinking that if Europe has not democratic laws it is us citizens all together in whole continent (yes, including Britain and British People) who need to fight to change effectively how the things work in European Parliament and, no, run away of Britain is not a valid option.

It could be perceived as a freedom choice, but in my eyes it is only British people who believed they fought for their freedom and indipendence while they choosen just to run away in panic.

Sure it is the first time in history that Britain refuses to fight a war for freedom changing effectively european rules, and decided to seclude themselves from the rest of the continent.

If Britain had made the same choice in 1939, putting their heads in the sands like ostrichs leaving Europe to Hitler, we all now were were just a bunch of goose-stepping black suited fascists then.

Really Europe is becoming a continent of elder people... Too much sentiments of racism, cultivating local and mainly personal interests, and shortsighted points of view, instead than rise and fight for a common future, a sentiment to leave a better continent for the next generations.

Really I see some points of contacts between real world and with what it has become the scene of Amiga, a community internally divided, apathetic, lost in useless discussions, with hardware and software producers far from the userbase (just like in the real world politicians and rulers are far from citizens), and where userbase itself lives with nostalgia and is closed on itself in a perpetual motion of self references, slowly dying in old age.

We in Europe and in Amiga camp do not believe in new generations, and worst thing, we believe we lived the best of our lives in the past (us amigans in the eighties and the nineties)... We are like old rich ladies crying for their past youth that will never come back, instead of enlightening our last years of a brilliant light preparing a path for the generations to come.

Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jun-2016 at 06:13 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jun-2016 at 06:13 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jun-2016 at 06:12 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jun-2016 at 06:10 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

This was Merkel's grand plan all along...find the trigger (immigration) that would push the Brits out...giving the new Roman Empire back to Germany.

*conspiracy theory show music plays*

_________________
-- --
aka Tony Rocks

@Raffaele

Globalization has merely commoditized human life.
And the value of that has and will continue to go down.
A future where everything is produced by automation?
Who will be able to pay for the products?
And if you can't pay? What options will you have?
Luckily, I am old and don't have to face a future where our dignity and rights will inevitably continue to erode.

Today, in my country, corporations have MORE rights than people.
Wait until they claim that they have developed machine sentience.
A future where I must recognize a device as my equal?
F*ck you very much.

Personally, I foresee a continuing slow global collapse, and as I have a few acres to grow food on and I am not irretrievably tied to any of you or any technology, I am not panicked at this point.

Good luck with your illusions optimists.
I have about 20 credits of my College education based in Economics alone.
And I can guarantee you that the majority of our current decisions are based on unproven theories that are being applied globally.
And ALL previous economic theories have FAILED at some point.