@Nibunnoichi

Quote:

Nibunnoichi wrote: @TRIPOS You could try to explain "objectively" people's preferences and tastes and why it's bad to have a choice

You are talking about subjective preferences, which comes down to personal taste. As was ChrisH, who claimed it wasn't possible to make objective comparisons between workbench and Ambient. Which is nonsense. It is very possible to make objective tests and comparisons. I'm fairly confident that in an objective comparison between Ambient and Workbench, Ambient would come out as the best option.


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You can still do that in modern Amiga OS

As can you do in Ambient. If you want to. Just set it up in the preferences.


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on AROS you can choose between no less than three (Wanderer, Dopus and Scalos).

On MorphOS you can choose between Ambient, Dopus, Scalos, and... Workbench (at least that latter was quite commonly used in early days, when Ambient was still kind of underdeveloped, AFAIK it should still be possible, though I don't see why anyone would want to do that today).

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: On MorphOS you can choose between Ambient, Dopus, Scalos, and... Workbench (at least that latter was quite commonly used in early days, when Ambient was still kind of underdeveloped, AFAIK it should still be possible, though I don't see why anyone would want to do that today).

Because one cannot, AFAIK, easily program Ambient listers, buttons, menus etc to fit your needs and wishes, it doesn't lend itself much to creativity. On DOpus Magellan, the listers are fully programmable, you can have them display anything you like, and easily create button rows that can do anything.

Something I put on Aminet back in 1999

http://aminet.net/package/util/dopus/RCDPlay

It's a module (arexx script) that connects to a remote linux host (rsh/ssh) to execute commands, and displays the results formatted in a lister - in this case, it sends a command to list out the content of an audio CD and shows the tracks in a DOpus lister. Double click a track, and command is issued to the linux box to play the selected track. The button bar shows typical CD-player buttons.

Can you do this kind of stuff with Ambient? Can you freely program the listers like that?

Last edited by kolla on 10-Aug-2016 at 11:04 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 10-Aug-2016 at 11:03 PM.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@TRIPOS

When it is done There is some interesting new Ambient stuff, too

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@kolla

Since Ambient supports vfs it is possible through a virtual file system.

In fact, Ambient is wrong place to implement this. If vfs support was added to Workbench/DOpus/Scalos/Whatever then it would work everywhere and not just on one specific desktop manager.

You could have, lets say, rcdplay.pvfs file with your script inside. It would not control Ambient but it would just open new subdirectory (similar to lha and so on).

Last edited by itix on 11-Aug-2016 at 12:36 AM.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @TRIPOS If you compare Magellan and Ambient it would be interesting, I have some experience there (Magellan)

Sorry but you can't compare pears with lemons or Opus Magellan with Ambient.

The first is a file manger with listers, and the latter is a desktop windows manager.

Take as one example, and for all, that Ambient is far from reach vaste part of Magellan capabilities as file manager such as assigning selected window the feature of being "source" and another window (or multiple windows) became "destination/s", for multiple file copying at same time.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Thread, not specifically you Hypex, you just sum'd it up so well.

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I don't know what happened to Helgis nor why he is banned across the board but he came across as a real positive Amiga supporter to me.

I do in no way mean this as offensive or belitteling or as an attempt to "weirdificate" Helge. I do think i manage to be neutral, while explaining.

Yes, Helge is a very positive, helpful, kind and well-meaning Amigan. Mostly. Except when he's not.

This is especially when he wants or have been waiting for something Amiga (especially updates and fixes to OS4.1 and his wishes and expectations are not met by Hyperion or others.

I think this comes from an way above average love and hope for a greater future for Amiga, immense amounts of loyalty and a bottomless feeling of helplessness. I am guessing, i'm not the only Amigan advocating Amiga and its superiority on all fields, long into this millenium.

I brought my A1200 with Apollo 1240 to work (yes, to WORK) at a supermarket, and desperately tried to convince the pc users of it's superior abilities while running demos, real-time raytracing, vortex-shading, texture-mapped toroids and morphing boxes.

I succeeded only in never been taken seriously in computer-topics ofc.

I gathered tenfolds of 4000, 4-5 4000T's and piles of 500's and some 1200's. until i sold and gave it all away in 2004ish.

I then came back, with more realistic expectations, older, and with a new diagnosis. ADHD.
I mention this, because i can in many situations empatize or even getting similar ideas as not only Helge, though i am avare and can adjust teh brainz.

I believe there's no evil in Helge, only deep love, hopes and frustration.


When that's said.. if i dare present my personal opinion .. (based on my view / assumtions of Helge)

1:
Banning / shutting Helge and people like him out from "our" main networks / forums / etc, is (again, assuming i'm correct about him) probably the most hurtful thing you can do to persons like him. I guess he's hurting very bad inside when he's in his "bad mood" and posts stupid thins about Amiga. He means no harm, he's just... well, desperate and maybe (blind shot) he wants to provoke SOME answer or news.

2:
I think someone with authority in the Amiga community should have a small chat with him, tell him what's cool, accepted and what's not. I know this sounds silly, (who cares about ONE user, right?) but if guided a little bit, and reminded of therules and no-no's, i think Helge, AND people like him, has Amigalove for 20 users in him. Who someone you ask? my first thoughts will probably make you laugh and think i'm drunk, but some of the main OS4 coders maybe? or even Trevor, Sollie or similar? It's a 10 minute skype-call to let a long time Amigan who definately loves the platform.

3:
Then maybe he can contact the different forums / sites and if he speaks the magic words, can be granted another chance, with very low bar for more headless ramblings.

Seriously... This is what ADHD does to you... this was ment to be a short comment... haha.

Anyways, please don't be eager to reply just tell me how stupid this is, how it belongs in an imaginary world, etc.. Rather, consider it, or ignore it. With that said, if i ever go out of line while drunk or down and get banned, i hope someone would do the same for me.

Love you all. And we're all needed.

Shamron / Ben Cato Malkenes.

Edit: why did i have to use a proxy to post? otherwise i got "your location / adress is blocked" ?

tried both firefox and konqueror on debian.

Last edited by Shamron on 11-Aug-2016 at 08:00 AM.

@recedent

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"teh real"

I'm sorry if i break it to you while you're trying hard to be ironic, but i'm not attempting to set what's better between two pardigms (that comment was just for your screenshot which i didnt' know was a collage) nor i was discussing Ambient's abilities, in fact i brought in other examples from other platforms; i was just saying that you can't *objectively* compare something by bringing in personal preferences and that's all. You clearly missed my point...

Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 11-Aug-2016 at 08:03 AM.
Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 11-Aug-2016 at 08:02 AM.

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Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

@Shamron

I get the "your location / adress is blocked" comment too when I try to post from my parents house
Not really sure why, as Im the only amiga user I know of in that valley since the 90s.

@Shamron

This has all been done before. I don't think anyone believes he's actually evil, but there's no talking or reasoning with him on a normal level, and after so many ridiculous rants, something's gonna snap. And given that some forums that would argue with each other over the colour of black paint have similar opinions of him means it's not just certain people he annoys - most people from all walks of Amiga life have a similar opinion.

More than once Trevor and Steven have personally contacted him to sort out his concerns and set him back on an even keel. That normally lasts a few days, maybe a couple of weeks, before he's back spamming multiple discussions with mindless, delusional rants. You can't say they haven't tried, but eventually you just have to give up, it's just not worth the time and effort. You have to be doing something spectacularly wrong to be banned from *your own* Facebook group.

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@Raffaele

you (like many others) do not really understand magellan

Magellan IS a full desktop replacement

when magellan was open-sourced even morphos user supported it despite ambient because magellan has some advantages (their words) so a final comparation would bring advantages and disadvantages on both sides. And as long Ambient is not ported elsewhere it is a theoretical discussion anyway.

Yes Magellan has always one source and one destination window but to be honest I personal never used it different even on other platforms in normal work. A nice feature to have but when you used it?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2016 at 09:21 AM.

@Shamron

the basic problem is that some users (like Helge) start on a fanatic level praising one platform and every party involved, then they realize that all they believed is just dreaming and unrealistic and then start to talk the opposite. Others who are still in defending mode hit back and then all heats up. It would be good for all if we would not dream of revival based on this or that but see it what it is... a nice hobby

I think most problems are created if people believe it (in Helges case 4.X) would become a modern mainstream platform competing with Windows or Mac. Then they see the shortcomings and slow development and become disappointed.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2016 at 09:30 AM.

This whole debate worries me, or not the debate, just the absence of comment from Hyperion. One would think that they would make a comment just to show that they are still active. If they are but doesn't comment it is equally worrying. What are they in it for in that case? They certainly don't seem to care about their customers. I wonder what brought this behaviour on.

@Niolator

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I wonder what brought this behaviour on.

Backlash no matter what they say is my guess.

Last edited by Yasu on 11-Aug-2016 at 10:43 AM.

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My MorphOS Blog

"Free speech includes other peoples right to offend you."

@Yasu

they could answer on safe sites like amigans or even their own forum

of course debates could arise somewhere else but why should they care about that

@Yasu

Yep. So saying nothing is maybe the most convenient way...

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@all

Quote:

This whole debate worries me, or not the debate, just the absence of comment from Hyperion. One would think that they would make a comment just to show that they are still active. If they are but doesn't comment it is equally worrying. What are they in it for in that case? They certainly don't seem to care about their customers. I wonder what brought this behaviour on.

It looks like a memory refresh is necessary.
Once upon a time, the Frieden brothers were active part of the community. Then, tired by the constant fighting, they decided to quit posting. Moreover, the difficulty of meeting the deadlines and the ensuing attacks eventually made Hyperion go for this publically-revealed policy: when we have something ready, we'll say it. Hence, announcements started to be made only when the products were ready. Besides that, only a few technical articles were released (f.ex. about the memory system, the SMP implemenation, etc.).
Like it or not, that's how it went, and the community played a key role in that.

That said, of course it would be nice to get products and status updates frequently, but we all know that there are difficulties (resource-related/technical/younameit). In my opinion, the silence is simply a consequence of such difficulties: difficulties -> slow development -> no finished product -> silence.
I don't think anyone has the right to demand that they share information: they don't have any legal obligation to do so, neither did they promise anything in such regard (actually, as said above, they have been very clear about their policy). Asking politely is OK, but bitching obsessively and with such a righteous attitude is a different story.

I, for one, expect them to keep their promises, namely releasing an update for AOS 4.1 FE, and AOS 4.2 with the anticipated features. I will praise/criticize them according to what they (fail to) deliver. I can also state right now that I'm not happy with how long it's taking. But not more than that.

Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated to Hyperion, and I am not part of the development team. I'm just a common user.

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Quote:

Like it or not, that's how it went, and the community played a key role in that.

its the "company" that playes key role in this. like it or not. the audience was (and still is) for the most part over-supportive. but if you want to blame it all on yourself, be my guest..

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @saimo Quote: Like it or not, that's how it went, and the community played a key role in that. its the "company" that playes key role in this. like it or not. the audience was (and still is) for the most part over-supportive. but if you want to blame it all on yourself, be my guest..

I wrote:

[...] the community played a key role in that [...]

In the whole context of what I wrote (it's above, unedited), it is obvious that the other player is the company.

But let me express the concept in different words.
Hyperion as a company, the developers, and others belonging to the company, were making announcements and sharing information frequently, on behalf of the company or as private persons. Sometimes they did the right thing, sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they got it right, sometimes they made mistakes. Sometimes they were supported, sometimes they were criticized, sometimes they were outright slandered. At some point they decided that what was happening was not good to them, and changed policy - and made the decision public.
This is what happened. And the two sides involved in the story are obviously the company and the community.

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Yes I can understand to a certain degree that they not communicate on certain sites but there are others where no problems would arise or they could use social media

today we have plenty of options to communicate (sometimes too many propably ) so that is no justification to become silent for years. In normal world it would be game over for a long time already.

At the moment there is no hardware to buy anyway and UAE is (to say it polite) intentionally not very good supported by them. So nothing to sell so you cannot loose customers by not communicating. But it is still not a very wise strategy.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2016 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2016 at 04:10 PM.

@saimo

Yes, I know about that but I think they are in the wrong business in that case. They should be into basketry or something were you don't need to have a presence on the Internet at all if they can't take negative criticism. Any company which comments their products on-line always receives complains from someone, no matter how good their product is. In this case they don't need to comment a lot. Just let their presence be known and say that they are still working on the OS. Then there would be no need for more posts in the thread. Case closed.

edit: typo

Last edited by Niolator on 11-Aug-2016 at 04:17 PM.