@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: By terms of the 2009 Agreement, Hyperion can release OS4 on any hardware.

Yet they don't. Which in a way is even worse.


@Tomppeli

Quote:

Tomppeli wrote: AmigaOS dev team and Hyperion have said many times that anybody can volunteer and sign a contract with them to port AmigaOS to any hardware you like.

First time I heard anything such. And had anyone been able to port OS4 to any H/W they like, then I'm pretty sure we would have seen OS4 released for X5000 and the Tabor at least a year ago, provided by AeonKit, instead of their expressed frustration over the current situation.

@fishy_fis

OK...I get what your saying.
I have two displays myself, one rotated 90 degrees to give me a full page display.
I like that orientation so much may switch both to that orientation.

And I use OS3, MorphOS, Windows (7 and 10) and occasionally OSX (trying mightily to avoid Linux, but with Android around its difficult to do).
Using OSX does give me some appreciation for what BSD can do when well polished (and the distance between Linux and BSD isn't that great).

In the '80s and '90s I used Microware OS-9 on 68K platforms (one of the last OS' I was able to use that wasn't written in C, it was carefully crafted via assembly).
That OS worked really well in the days of expensive memory as it required re-entrant code that could be used by multiple processes with separate data modules for each process.
Overall it was very UNIX/Linux like, but much more compact.
It served as the basis for the OS embedded in 68K based DVi players.
It also was one of the few functional OS based on a micro-kernel that I know of (another being MorphOS).

BUT - I'll admit,my power systems are X64 based. I just recently scrapped a dual quad core Xeon system as it was getting long in the tooth, and my i7 and FX-8300 systems both can handle the same number of threads.
AND, at 3.6 to 4.0 GHz, I will admit that even IF a PPC was as capable (and they aren't) that at 2.2 to 2.7 GHz they still wouldn't be much of a match.
HOWEVER, since I can also get utility from a 1.3 GHz quad core X64 tablet running Windows, the need for extreme horsepower is hardly a constant requirement.
PLUS, when one looks at the requirement of software running on an OS3.1 API, those 2.2 to 2.7 GHz PPCs actually fly.

Would X64 improve our systems?
Maybe, but from what I've seen in the past, once adopted programmers will rush to waste as much of that potential as they can through various lazy programming techniques.

WOW - too much verbiage.my power systems are X64 based.my power systems are X64 based.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Hi.

What if they weren't the issue? by this I don't mean they aren't the cause for a lot of the issues in the processor market (so to speak), just not a cause or an issue in this discussion here. When you talk about all those gigahertz you immediately connect it to them like they are not part of Wintel and driving mediocre software with brute force. I mean, don't be the one who ignores my comments and links I posted showing what 4.1 can do with one core on 1800 MHz with a graphics card and composition. Because this exactly takes this discussion in another direction - our direction. It is a more subjective place, granted, but that's the whole point of being an Amigan nowadays as it is not about raw power that exceeds everything else so kids can go to school and say their home comp is the best in the world. Those same kids use completely different computation tools to adhere to their needs and desires.

Quote:

I will agree that multi-core X64 is quite competent at eliminating those irritating little pregnant pauses that have plagued my past machines.

Imagine you are still thinking about performance per watt. Now, add to that measurement the ability to achieve fluid motion of the os which I would translate to experience yet that can't be a valid measurement because of differentiation. If you have all sorts of different tasks that the os "connects" to in one sort of sweep, then you can really underline the combination of the PA6T with AOS4.1FE. On that comparison it is not about getting past some issues with power. It's rather about creating consistency between those tasks when the added power (not necessarily of a cpu) can enhance various tasks. That is adhering to the old Amiga model of power usage that made it advanced.

Quote:

Well, I'm a MorphOS user, so...that's where we're headed eventually.

Why?

Quote:

I assume you are referring to the inclusion of the AMD SB600 Southbridge.

Yes and it seems you missed the point: I didn't say it as a negativity at all. The Amiga of old also used some sort of non-optimal technology (or not at the very high level of its other parts) that I forgot its name (that what happens when you name everything after girls names which are very rare where I live). That is what you do sometimes in order of finally getting your custom product out when you are not a commentator on forums and are actually the one responsible of continuing the line of Amiga. If you missed the point then that point is also a part of something which is much larger and is the context in which we all write - there are no sides here. I really have no feelings towards Amd. I recognize their better approach than the others to open source even if some of their guys on that driver scene are sort of douches. The former Varisys and A-EON can be commended also for working with them and getting what they needed before installing.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 02:57 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 12:48 AM.

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote: @terminills Quote: Please explain to me what makes AOS4.x/PPC so wonderful? I'd be interested in any thoughts on this as well. Setting aside PPC compatibility, what are the main differences between the classic and PPC implementations of AOS?

You know, I thought about answering that question (which is now your question I'm answering given it was me who was asked) in the form of a review. That seams like a mistake at this time because reviews have something very comparable about them even if the basis of comparison is not valid which is also the basis of my entire argument. I also don't want to speak about this as an issue separated from the cost and value for money which are legitimate and real as a hardware and software review. Especially in my case where I added 20% in shipping it to the mid-east which I don't reckon anyone else added.

Let me say that I experience all sorts of frustrations. I bought a Juli@ soundcard but after FE the envy24HT gives me lots of issues. Now, why that happened? because Hyp and Hans upgraded the graphics system which caused everything else to need to keep up and that driver couldn't do it. Isn't the cause, however, exactly what people here want to happen? they implemented a better, modern way of processing graphics while also adhering to the principals of the classic system and that caused me issues. The sound gets stuck from time to time (30 minutes to hours depending on the use and software). Between those times I have a great time with that soundcard doing everything that involves it. It always surprises me when the error appears when I seem to get lost. You know what that reminds me? the Amiga of old when I would get lost for hours and suddenly - a guru. And then another and then you lose your save or getting to understand what that util does (as I was a kid) and then another. Yet between those it had been magical. What do I feel today about the way I apply the Amiga through various uses? that it has a consistent feel to it manifested in an axis going from "good" to "very good" and staying there. I would love for the frustrations to be gone. What helps me at those times is the second comp I have right next to it that I turn to when I need another run at Gothic 2. If not for titles like that and Baldur's Gate and Warcraft 3 when I left the Amiga scene (in tears - a real story but for another time) It would have been a full blowout (since ScummVM and the support of newer Zorks I turn to it even less). I don't have a magic comp at mind in large part due to the way I'm writing to you right now which is on Firefox 50 on the Linux side, when before it was via Oddysey - that plows through super-heavy Facebook like nothing while the FF with 2 cores and more advanced drivers really struggles to do on Linux.

What of all that belongs to the cpu? I say it is a matter of nothing and everything especially as I've gone through an os change and a graphics card change from HD5870 to R9-270. I know on the pc I always had those tiny slowdowns which I never was able to really tell what they were, and one time everybody on the guru3D forums started talking about "frame times" and then I saw Amd releasing a driver which was finally supposed to help, and that was on a quad with that same R9-270. This is also a question of who's fan are you as far as the Amiga powers that be, go... I rather address on this question the cost of the entire product. I spent about half a year before I bought it. I spent much less before buying my car. That was also when I tried to find positivity here about the X1k and was amazed. Luckily I have been to some places and could recognize an agenda from a kilometer away, mixed with genuine feelings of loyalty to the classics which have been turned against this very competent AmigaOne machine which was also called A1 to make the purists happy (well that didn't work). That story goes to show just one thing: it was my decision. I wasn't here during the time of Amiga upgrades. My dad always bought the bigger Amiga because here you couldn't hope of getting all that variety especially software (which made piracy a basic necessity and is responsible for me being here which might be a bummer for some but is more a basis for a discussion about proliferation). Those bigger machines cost more, but eventually between all the upgrades so were the 1200s and 500s. Even if they were better initially in capturing the essence of brilliant hardware and software for the regular consumer that even serious industries use (which is now the main selling point of the pc with a lot more emphasis on the cost than on the performance). It was a decision for the die hards then and it is a decision for us now, so it was also my choice to get the X1k despite its cost and with regards to its potential longevity between AOS and Linux. This didn't mean it wasn't a market based decision like with the A4000. I was much more concerned with the risk of getting it here. So after all that you can't expect me to present a sense of objectivity about it. I can tell you it was worth it, you can tell me I'm trying to justify it. As far as the cpu goes - when trying Nexuiz on Linux I had experienced something better than with the pc version. When it would somewhat slow down it would immediately pick itself right back up. I termed it on the hyp forums as "recoverability" and attributed it to the PA6T seeing as the pc was supposed to be the stronger hardware yet presented frame times issues and a roller coaster ride of performance. Take it for what it is and look at others for other tests. For me Using AOS the way I use with Facebook while C.A.N.D.I is on the background and playing 1080P and using TuneNet and writing a response here - makes it all worth it. I won't explain why it's a dream come true. What can get it further is a better maintenance of all of that which is also connected to the status of Amiga from a business standpoint. I write from a user's perspective.

Edit:

A little something.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 12:17 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 02:26 AM.

@All

There is something funny:

On linux there are serious issues with drivers related to Big Endian and support for Power. When you try examining the situation you don't think of pointing your finger at A-EON because they made it possible to be at that position. You connect it to the way Linux views this platform and to Linux's entire model, you add a look at the change of the Linux culture with Canonical, and then you throw at it the futility of Power in 2016.

On AOS4.1 there are also issues. Hyperion gets all the blame. Nobody thinks it might be related to the original brilliant model and the valid need to recreate at least some part of it in the current system. If you disconnect from that past model some would get heart attacks and declare it is some pc. If you stay there you need to find a moment of some extreme ingeniousness in figuring how everything is tied together. Then you add this dreamer who would to have a Paula + AGA card used in that system. Because emulation is very important and Paula is another place where technicality just doesn't cut it.

Just something to think about. What I'm thinking about is the ability to discuss it here so it can be more constructive. While I'm thinking about it another guy on the Vamp post uses my words against me about smartphones and using just one core as a proof for something. That trollism is an issue I'm not getting past. I think you shouldn't either. You can't have a loud minority shouting much better than the rest, given as they are also a minority between minorities of using alternative systems and ways of computing. I hope to reach a point where everything is on the table and everyone are here and at the same time create some barrier for trollism to cross before it appears.

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @Srtest Quote: Now you're talking about those pc guys on EAB who treats Amiga as nostalgia throwback and wants to subjugate all of us to their whims. Lucky no one cares about those guys. Your tongue-in-cheek detector is out of alignment.

Precisely the opposite! my tongue is so in cheek, if any women were here they would find it offensive. Instead it just makes me bitter which might also make me more appealing to angry people.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 02:58 AM.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

Yet they don't. Which in a way is even worse.

SAM460 was non-AmigaOne hardware until late 2011.

Quote:

First time I heard anything such.

They are quite open to people willing help. Some people even think open-sourcing OS4 wouldn´t lead to faster development, because everybody who wanted to contribute is in the team already.

@pavlor

Quote:

They are quite open to people willing help. Some people even think open-sourcing OS4 wouldn´t lead to faster development, because everybody who wanted to contribute is in the team already.

i see: so since everybody who wants to help, already joined, open sourcing now might only slow down the flow of steady progress, since people who only wish to disturb could now interfere at will or even maliciously modify the good code. hah! that figures!

@wawa

If you think you skills could help AmigaOS project, feel free to ask them to join...

@Srtest

Actually, I fully understand your point.
I started with 8 bit cpus that required at lot of code optimization to bring out the best in them.
And before moving to the 68000, I was using 6809 cpus that I frankly miss as much as the 68000.

But things evolve.
That's what the move to PPC represented.
And I must admit its a pretty efficient design.

Hard to believe that market forces drove the industry back to CISC, let alone further evolution of the X86 ISA, which Intel itself wasn't too keen on when AMD pushed into X64 (anyone remember Itanium?)

And I'm really comfortable with the idea of Varisys driving the development of new AmigaOnes as I am familiar with the staff and they are way competent
As I stated, Paul was pushing for the shift to Qorlq when the X1000 was in its design phase.

The decision to use the PA6T can be seen as more of a nod to the proposals presented by Ack Systems. than Varisys' design preferences (although they had worked with that cpu, they weren't recommending it by the time they were brought on for the X1000).

"there are no sides"

Of course there aren't.
Most of the lingering hostility in the MorphOS community comes purely from the fact that we don't think highly of either Bill McEwen OR Ben Hermans.

When I purchase my X5000, I'll receive a copy of OS4.1.
And I'll install it as I've had contact with the author of the new Radeon HD 3D video card drivers (and, for that matter, I know Mark "Bigfoot" Olsen on the MorphOS development team who is one of the developers of MorphOS video card drivers).

A triple boot system, MorphOS, OS4, and Linux.

And why not?

As to the X64 shift, well PPCs are dying.
IBM only sells them for embedded applications, Freescale is no more and the Qorlq line is being shifted to ARM, and Applied Micro is about to be broken up.

And the only other viable alternative is Power8, which hasn't filtered down to the desktop market yet (if it ever will).

X64 is cheap, its actively being developed, it has a future.
Personally, I pushed for a shift to ARM as its a licensable ISA.
I don't LIKE the idea of being forced back into an ISA I had to adopt in the '90s thanks to market forces.
And I still associate Intel with its flawed products, not its better ideas.
I couldn't even migrate some of the code I'd developed on the 6809 until the i386 was introduced because of X86's address mode limitations.
And I'm still stinging over the fact that IBM's choice of a small manufacturer of processors better suited to calculators for its use in the PC left us the legacy we have now.

BUT, as I've stated before, good (even better) ideas do NOT assure your place at the table.
SO, you face that ugly admission that you have to compromise, or you don't move forward.

Last edited by Beans on 28-Nov-2016 at 04:31 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans
Quote:

Would X64 improve our systems? Maybe, but from what I've seen in the past, once adopted programmers will rush to waste as much of that potential as they can through various lazy programming techniques.

Well, speaking of the lazy programming techniques:

Why do we use ffmpeg? Why do we use WebKit?

Because there is no way someone creates a feature bloated fully compatible replacement that is slim and highly optimized.

Speaking of X64, it mainly gives memory. Loads of memory and little endian. And those are the only issues we currently have when it comes to using those ports. Being able to use more than 2GB of memory is the even more important goal.

Sure it comes with a price (compatiblity lost, limited number of supported boards/cards), but under the line, thats the only way to go. PPC is dead. Even the open source community does break big endian more than giving a benefit.

PPC is dead. Face it. In the end it does not matter if it is ARM64 or X64. Noone can predict how long ether platform will survive. Maybe in 10 years there is something new. Maybe there is LEG64 and it takes over the market.

Once a system is ported to whatever, it is easy to port it again. Because all strings of compatility are already cut on the first platform swap and with new hardware independant memory protection, system wide 64 bit support, muticore support etc. it does not matter anymore. It then just takes a recompile for most applications.

There is no way to do all that keeping compatiblity. It will fail badly. Hacking multi core into the existing Amiga structure is crap, as well as 64 bit support. The result would be a semi slow gigantic hack were most old stuff ends on some blacklist anyway.

Sometime it is required to drop compatility to gain progress. Riding a horse, which is dead for 10 years, for another decade is just a waste of time.

Last edited by geit on 28-Nov-2016 at 04:33 PM.

@geit

I wholly agree, we HAVE to make this move to continue to evolve.
I don't like it, I didn't want to give up the 68K (some extremists still don't), and I don't like the idea of shifting from PPCs to an Intel dominated ISA (since they were the competition back in the day).

Luckily, since our "camp" (and I HATE that concept) has some very bright developers, they have always concerned about our future.
So we go for it.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@pavlor

Quote:

@wawa If you think you skills could help AmigaOS project, feel free to ask them to join...

i feel free even if i dont have that sort of skills, but i have found a better area to contribute, in a better accordance with my abilities. i am debugging open portable x86/68k software as we speak ;). i dont see much sense in exclusively trying to contribute to os4/ppc anymore.

@Beans

Quote:

I wholly agree, we HAVE to make this move to continue to evolve.

please do. and on the way drop all the others (today) inferior solutions that have ever constituted amiga in favour of advanced ones that constitute contemporary platforms like linux. i dont even see the reason to reinvent it, for the sole necessity to port the existing userland application from one kernel to another. simply use whatever linux mostly reminds you of amiga and you are done.

Quote:

I don't like it, I didn't want to give up the 68K (some extremists still don't),

another prime example of your rhetorics, you obviously insist on in every post. why simply (and out of pure interest) staying with a thing that essentially is what is is, rather than exchanging it for something else, that pretends to be the same, must be called "extremism"? because it sounds more threatening, in context of todays media coverage?

Last edited by wawa on 28-Nov-2016 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 28-Nov-2016 at 05:41 PM.

@wawa

With people like you, open sourcing OS4 makes really no sense...


Edit: End of silly jokes (for now ). As AmigaOS is composed of various parts with various licences each, it may be next to impossible to release open-source version. Eg. everything based on OS3.x sources may be challenged as derived form Amiga.Inc/Cloanto property, and so licence couldn´t be changed without their consent. I´m no laywyer, but caution is certainly needed.

Last edited by pavlor on 28-Nov-2016 at 05:54 PM.

@pavlor

Quote:

With people like you, open sourcing OS4 makes really no sense...

of course, it must be a misunderstanding. im absolutely not advocating let alone insisting on it (open sourcein os4). it wouldnt actuall make any difference, even if it wouldnt make any harm, all the same.

edit: open sourcing genuine amiga system might actually make some more impact, avan if it was only for the sake of comparison of solutions and components. which is currently prohibited, even though the yource may have leaked. then again. im not sure i would ever trust any license amigaos might be released with, to be securely legit.

but "people like me" obviously prefer to contribute to open efforts, that may be used for advantage of all, inclusive os4, just because of this open attitude and cooperative manner it can be carried out with.

Last edited by wawa on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:02 PM.

@Beans

You might have gotten my point if I was a prophet. As a MorphOS user (which I am not) I guess you have other considerations. To me it seems those considerations actually drove you to invest in the X5k as a triple-boot machine, really a one of its kind feature especially as it can run 4.1.

Which I guess puts you in a place that is different than mine - as a user you look to a forseeble future and get that X5k. As a developer you don't, and the user wins. Maybe it is something else that makes that call for you. Maybe you recognize something and wish to give it a chance.

geit wrote: "Noone can predict how long either platform will survive ". Yet most of the people here not only can't predict which platform will survive, they didn't predict the masses moving from X64 to Arm and smartphones, not in a thousands years would they think people would like slower processors and tiny screens that are presented to them better and in a more fluid way. I mean... isn't Linux an os for geeks that would never go mainstream? and yet it did both via smartphones, small devices and to a lesser extent - pcs.

I said before that a goal has to be to make Amiga the master of portability not only for ourselves but for other platforms as well, so its people can always say that if it is from the Amiga then it is friendly to whatever comes along. Then Amiga can add a little special something much in the spirit of that old Colonization port that used the ui and became something special. Even if Dropping compatibility in some regards might be a turn or a roadblock to cross, I fail to see how it can be a goal other than serving those who want a move to another platform.

I see guys here who are prophets, apparently. They know about the future. That seems to me like a narrow view of any future, while there is a much wider view to the immediate one: the X5000 and whatever FPGA presents, using it and the X1000 extra core, moving to the quad version, improving the graphics driver based on the work of Hans and Daniel, I read about a new filesystem and support that is planned. Those are right here which can expand an already nice and usefull platform based on Amiga and being aided by the wide appeal of open source and porting technologies. We also know about past mistakes and that it is never about the idea and technology like mentioned here, which is why a non-European and American centralized approach is a basic condition of continuation.

@all

All of us are Amiga born and raised. Some of us joined at one point or another and stayed for the long haul. Others kept further through thick and thin while people like myself went elsewere and always wanted to go back, if and when. So we had our share of dissapointments from all directions. It was never about one platform that dissapointed us or we wouldn't have come back to it. As it relates to innovation and imagination, the user's outlook is as good as the developer's one, albeit an outside view looking in is a privilige developers on rich platforms and companies have that ours don't. So to reach that point where the developer can stop focusing on surviving and take its head out of the deep, it can't be all about surviving for all of us and yes - it can lead to another route that is similar to the Commodore one. On that same notion, you can walk through a corridor and achieve a similar greatness. Who knows? seeing other platforms, graphics card companies, innovative sound card makers, disappear means it could be the future whatever direction you take. Where does open source fits into all of that? for now in-between worlds and platforms and aiding emulation. I mean, wasn't Aminet free before they wanted free? When I was an Amigan back then I didn't even know it existed.

Edit:

Language fixes

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:11 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:01 PM.

@pavlor

Quote:

They are quite open to people willing help.

Do you mean, it's just because "no-one asked" that there's no (f.ex.) Mac Mini support, that would guarantee continuous availability of affordable 2nd hand hardware?

(Even more so, if also expanded to (some) PowerMacs)

@Srtest

Quote:

I said before that a goal has to be to make Amiga the master of portability not only for ourselves but for other platforms as well that its people can always say that if it is from the Amiga then it is friendly to whatever comes along.

aros is amiga built with ultimate portability in mind, it runs os x64, arm ... 68k. whatever.. check.

Quote:

All of us are Amiga born and raised. Some of us joined at one point or another and stayed for the long haul. Others kept further through thick and thin while people like myself went elsewere and always wanted to go back, if and when. So we had our share of dissapointments from all directions. It was never about one platform that dissapointed us or we wouldn't have come back to it. As it relates to innovation and imagination, the user's outlook is as good as the developer's one, albeit an outside view looking in is a privilige developers on rich platforms and companies have that ours don't. So to reach that point where the developer can stop focusing on surviving and take its head out of the deep, it can't be all about surviving for all of us and yes - it can lead to another route that is similar to the Commodore one. On that same note, you can walk through a corridor and achieve a similar greatness. Who knows? seeing other platforms, graphics card companies, innovative sound card makers, disappear means it could be the future whatever direction you take. Where does open source fits into all of that? for now in-between worlds and platforms. I mean, wasn't Aminet free before they wanted free? When I was an Amigan back then I didn't even know it existed.

okay. so what is your conclusion in one sentence again? because just once more i cannot extract the actual meaning of that paragraph.

@wawa

I guess you'll survive

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:13 PM.