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      /  My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
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fishy_fis 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 0:37:33
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1740
From: Australia

@PR

Iron Maiden, Amiga and Corvette..... Im with you there. I never liked AC/DC though. Their entire catalogue sounds pretty much the same and is way too simple for my tastes. I don't know how they do it. Playing basically the same, unchallenging song for 40 years would drive me (more) crazy. :)

To be honest this whole topic can trigger a bit of a knee jerk reaction in me. It gets frustrating to read the same things over and over again, especially when they're inaccurate. I also don't understand many Amiga fans need to berate things they neither have a particular interest in, nor understand as thoroughly. There's a very negative attitude in a lot of this community and its quite destructive. Negativity breeds negativity in a similar way to positivity breeding positivity.

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 12:01:33
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

@Jose

I have used once fb in my lifetime 10 years ago to make pranks to my friends. Never use it.

It is like: Now I made some coffee, then washed some clothes, watered the flowers....

So true and old. Today my little girl told to put the photos Whatsapp, Instagram etc. Don't use either.

Youtube and normal e-mail is enough, and offcourse work pages to read and do banking.

Long time ago our bank (Nordea) had a recommendation in their net front page what browsers to use.

Included IBrowse;) Maybe PR had something to do with it..

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 12:09:04
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

Double

Last edited by PR on 17-Mar-2017 at 12:10 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 12:27:36
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@andres

>PCs and Mac aren't absolutely nowdays Amigas.
>They are the exact opposite of what the Amiga was (intended as OS).

I agree 90%.

Simplicity & speed etc. is not there yet on the modern mainstream.
(and at the same time some of it has eroded on Amiga systems)

>Those systems are completely automated, and do infinite things without any user's move. Often against his own will.

Mostly true.
Still too often x86/x64 systems end up in a mess on their own and one needs to do extra maintenance.

>They do an incredible and complicated confusion behind the scenes.

+1

>And, to be honest, they are crap.

+1

Still, one get's a lot of done with them.
Often more easily than on Amiga nowdays, regarding modern stuff one does.

>Something more and more manual and less and less automated.

Automation is not bad in general.
But often it's poorly implemented.

>I understand that such a system wouldn't be for the masses, but it's something that >would be interesting for some people, quite a lot of people.

Configurability.
Use should be given easy access to set up the system as they like.

example of bootmenu:
-banking
-office
-gaming
-kids
-Aaaamiigaaaah!
...

For example, after one try to disable all automation on Win10 computer, it anyway try to access ~10 random looking IP addresses etc...
(btw, it's nightmare if your job is to verify power consumption of your x64 product with Win10 installed)


********************
Efficiency:
-On AOS3.x HW I could do everything/anything on 128Mb system, in multitasking.
-On AOS4 HW I often run out of 512MB RAM, but not immediately (I imagine 2GB for AOS4 is almost like 128MB for AOS3.x and 4GB for AOS4 is like 128MB+VMEM on AOS3.x machine?)

-On AOS3.x, 50Mhz is fast, 500Mhz is superfast (emulated)
-On AOS4.x, 666Mha is usefull, 2Ghz is superfast

-On Win+x64 2GB+swap is ok for one app at a time and 1,3Ghz*4 is almost enough
-On Win+x64 6gB+swap is ok for multiple app at a time (~4 apps at work)

Funny how on below2Ghz multicore Windows systems one can type in letters faster (using one finger) than they are displayed on screen.

Simplicity:
-I mastered AOS3.x once, not any more, but anyway, it was ecstatic to feel & use !!
-Win is nightmare to try to master, new nightmares updated to system frequently.
-Linux slow as mainstream distro ... but it at least does all updates with one click, does not nag separately for every app like windows... OK to use if you have HQ HW, I apparently do not have it (AMD+800 not enough, keep on crashing ....).
-OSX - the apple way - not my way.


Future:
-not sure if Amigans ever have enough resources to combine original Amiga values with modern needs...

Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Mar-2017 at 01:04 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Mar-2017 at 01:03 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Mar-2017 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Mar-2017 at 12:32 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Mar-2017 at 12:30 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Hypex 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 13:44:50
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8729
From: Greensborough, Australia

@paolone

Quote:
Obvious. But no one forbides you to pause the video, read what's written there, and copy exactly on your shell. :)


I know I can pause. But I hate needing to do that and go back and forth. I like to control the guide, not have the guide control me. And as to copying on screen to my keyboard, well I'm not living in the time of the ancients, I expect to directly copy and paste now. Gone are the days when I typed in BASIC listings by hand which just seems inefficient and obtuse for such an automated machine like a computer.

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Hypex 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 14:24:25
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8729
From: Greensborough, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Also if a person bothers to learn the system a user has total control over it. The difference is you don't have to, 'cos for the most part it just works.


I'm going to slightly disagree here. I've experienced on Windows (Vista) where something won't work. That is, try to open a program and nothing happens, no error or sign of anything. Now I got caught on this and IIRC asked the internet. Turned out a file can be locked from opening and Windows ignores you, not even issuing you with an error or warning. For the most part it just doesn't work.

Yes that's an isolated incident I know. Not confirmed but I suspect virus software may have locked it after downloading. It happened to a friend who was trying to install software and getting stuck. Had I not seen it myself I would not have known what was going on. If you expect to download and open a file but aren't aware it can be interfered with it can be frustrating to wonder what the heck is going on. Everyone has a different technical level they work at and an OS can easily work above that level.

Another thing I have seen is Windows getting corrupted by some program or even a virus checker being compromised that prevents boot. And can cause bad random lockups looking like a severe hardware failure. Usually requiring a user backup and fresh install. Since when Windows is corrupted it can be a lot of work trying to find what is causing it and the best solution is just to reformat it at times. I've seen this on my out of order XP tower and now a friends laptop running XP.

Also, as to AC/DC, I never got into them either. They were a bit old fashioned for my style which didn't sound much more than basic rock or medium metal. But I am also a product of my time growing up in the time of extended mixes. So perhaps I needed to be entertained with cool versions of songs and sound effects.

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 15:19:12
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

Kimmo had really well going to the point. We surely have no problems as we are the Amiga Magicians and people usually ask help from us and it really is a pain in the but:

Got Win8, Then there was a free upgrade to 10. Click click and thats it...

Go to the mess, unknowing anything.

It just takes too much work time to solve all the accidents that can happen for not so knowing too much what happens.

Today everything and everyplace is closed: Go to the Net. It's unfair in my opinion as we still have people from war times. How can they for example pay bills if the cp is so difficult to use with all the "extras" nobody understand.

Hopefully we are clear now.

My wife left my old 1000e laptop to a shop and bought a new one just because it got messed up in time from some programs. Wanna install? OK. Maybe You understand better now.

Happy tapping, even with one finger;)

Last edited by PR on 17-Mar-2017 at 03:29 PM.
Last edited by PR on 17-Mar-2017 at 03:28 PM.

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paolone 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 17-Mar-2017 15:42:14
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 932
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
Efficiency:
-On AOS3.x HW I could do everything/anything on 128Mb system, in multitasking.
-On AOS4 HW I often run out of 512MB RAM, but not immediately (I imagine 2GB for AOS4 is almost like 128MB for AOS3.x and 4GB for AOS4 is like 128MB+VMEM on AOS3.x machine?)

-On AOS3.x, 50Mhz is fast, 500Mhz is superfast (emulated)
-On AOS4.x, 666Mha is usefull, 2Ghz is superfast

-On Win+x64 2GB+swap is ok for one app at a time and 1,3Ghz*4 is almost enough
-On Win+x64 6gB+swap is ok for multiple app at a time (~4 apps at work)


Oh my God! Comparing apples to oranges has never been so misleading! How the hell can you compare a 1985 operating system, bound to 1985 hardware, 1985 needs and 1985 expectations, with todays OS, needs and expectations? It's obvious something happened in these 30 years, which basically is evolution of needs, expdiectations and technology.

In 1985 I could be glad to write a letter in a pseudo WYSIWYG environment with fonts "behaving" on video "almost as like as" on the printed paper, without the need of a hard drive, on a 4-colors based GUI without animations, effects, transparency and even without the Internet always ready to run in the background. But in 1985 I wasn't even legal age, my motorbike was the best thing happened after my bycicle, and I dreamt I could drive a Fiat Uno without climate, without ABS, without any commodity. The best video recording quality I could afford was VHS and I'd buy my first CD player one year after.

But now we are in 2017. 32 years afterwards, my word processor MUST meet 1:1 perfect analogy between video and paper, it must work on a transparency and multi-effect 16 M colors GUI, it must load from my SSD drive in less than half a second, it must read and write in common formats, and I must have the freedom to save it locally and on the cloud, in order to let other connected people to work, moreover my browser must always be opened on Google, in the background, to check for sources and correct sentences. My 8 years old car has climate control, ABS, a on-board computer and so many three-chars-initials technologies I even don't know about, and I sincerely hope some day to be able to buy a hi-class car. It will never happen. CDs are just old junk I can play whenever I want, but easiest way to listen to music are MP3 files.

Windows 7 and 10 are millions of code lines more complex than AmigaOS 3.x for the very simple reason they have to fullfit needs AmigaOS users hadn't (and today refuse to have). Security, multi-user environment, multiprocessing (well, at least AROS for x64 can do that), ability to use far more advanced hardware features and so on. The operating system itself must do things AmigaOS never did by itself. Don't you like that? I guess that's one of the motivations pushing you to use AmigaOS instead, but please do not pretend anyone else to agree.

Even AmigaOS 4.x is far more complex than 3.x. It's normal.


Today my PCs and tablet allow me to do, faster and better, what my Amiga allowed long ago. Peace.

Last edited by paolone on 17-Mar-2017 at 03:45 PM.

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 18-Mar-2017 0:52:16
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

This had gone well offside.

Very Happy with the Migas and pc:s.

Just a chance-idea and people get fighting.

Please delete the whole thing.


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andres 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 18-Mar-2017 8:53:34
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Nov-2008
Posts: 324
From: Firenze (Italy)

Anyway, I'm not saying AmigaOS is better than Win7 or 10 or MacOS.

I'm saying Win or MacOS are one way to see an OS, not the only way.
Sure there could be an OS wich is more and more manual and less and less automated, more centered on the user than on producer's desires, better and clearly organized, much much smaller and much much faster.
And still easy for a common user.
Sure, it should be stable as Win or Mac (which indeed are quite stable), and with a good software collection to choose from.

Let's call it the "third way"

_________________
A1200/020+68882 - 6 MB RAM - AmigaOS 3.0

Home Recording Audio

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wawa 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 18-Mar-2017 16:03:42
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5731
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

Quote:
(even if many of us act like it).


there is no "us"

Quote:
With the Amiga its a constant battle trying to get by, and very, very expensive to even enter the battle field. Spend $100 on a PC and you get a more capable machine that is able to just go about its business, generally with little hassle.


there is no "amiga", at lest it isnt hardware os4 users pretend to call an amiga. imigs is what it ever was, nothing else.

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wawa 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 18-Mar-2017 16:08:50
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5731
From: Unknown

@andres

Quote:
Those systems are completely automated, and do infinite things without any user's move. Often against his own will.


ans thats the field, where os4 users and developers consider most wothy to cath up. messaging system, cenralizing update system without any much user control, thigs like that. it would better go for actual fuctionality extensions, like gallium or multiprocessing, but no, it must be that exact bloat, they critisize mainstream to be.

Quote:
An OS should be measured in MB not GB.


suffice to mention os4 "classic" needs 70mb just to roll off the system. hint, hint!

Last edited by wawa on 18-Mar-2017 at 04:51 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 19-Mar-2017 15:56:15
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@paolone

All modern things can be implemented also on Amigalike OS, without OS morphing to something like Windows today (slow unstable piece of sh*t).

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 19-Mar-2017 16:11:06
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@PR

"upgrade to 10. Click click and thats it"
A friend had 800eur laptop & Win8, he started to upgrade to Win10, laptop died.

At work I see how win10 consume more power and is a lot harder to set up to be stable.
((Same for Android lollipop -> Marsmallow "upgrade" on x86/x64.))

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 19-Mar-2017 16:20:26
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

Was ahead of times. Now Mickymouse (Microsoft) forces to upgrade to Win 10 or... Not a new thing.

Offencing why can we not keep good working Win7 made Amigastylish? No upgrades anymore.

Then You get some monthly payment, forced again Win 10. How Stupid is that? Well wise in the money side for them but the OS is forced to buy also in a laptop.

Was buying once and asked the seller can You put out the Win OS from the price as not needed?
Not possible! So No deal.

When bought in pieces it's ok from a specialistic shop. They just asked what You want to do with it and we will make it. Very nice.

In our appreciated finance newspaper reading somebody had really lost their nerve and changed to Linux all work. Win 10 forced got un usable. "Was a Big mistake to upgrade".

The Amiga experience lives as long as we do. And allways would like to Upgrade to AOS whenever available.

Keep It Simple and Secure. We want more.






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fishy_fis 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 20-Mar-2017 1:15:26
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1740
From: Australia

@wawa

Of course there's an "us",.... the people using the site, taking part of this thread, following the scene, etc.
I get that you're trying to make some sort of point/separate yourself, but honestly that's one of the dumber comments I've seen for a while.

Your second point was equally stupid, but for clarification I use the term "amiga" generically for anything born of/inspired from the original systems, or the original systems themselves. Much in the same way "Unix" is used today.

@kimmok

That's complete and utter crap. I have a 333mhz p2 with 128meg running win7 I use specifically for seeing how usable old systems can be in the modern world. There is *absolutely* no delay between typing and having text appear onscreen. Its as instant as it is anywhere.
What is it with your need to make up things from thin air? You have a history of it. Do you really think just because you type it on the internet it becomes true?

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PR 
Re: My mother asked (again) Could I Buy an Amiga?
Posted on 20-Mar-2017 10:17:47
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1792
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

@all

Please remember that we are from different areas of the world so there is a culture error, Guru Meditation.. and PR English is not the native language. Trying The Best.

This is a nice site to practise as needed sometimes in work.

The Point Of View is well being noticed.

Thank You for it.


PR







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