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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
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Poll : Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Yes
No
Needs to be cheaper/better
86x/Arm is the answer
OS4.2 / Future software is more important
OS4 is dead
Yummy Pancakes
 
PosterThread
wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 19:21:27
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Rob

last ive heard radeon is not the right choice with gallium, so in this respect aros would probably be behind os4 on ppc at least until you have changed the card.

Last edited by wawa on 27-Mar-2017 at 07:22 PM.

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 20:54:03
#122 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@wawa

Sorry if I confused you, our machines were not Amigas, they were based on Peripheral Technologies PT68K4 and K5 boards optionally equipped with Tseng Labs ET4000 ISA video cards and PC keyboards.
And the base unit utilized terminals and did not incorporate our GUI, so THAT quite resembled a small mainframe.

As to Windows ever being a real competitor until the NT kernel was introduced, it wasn't. For our hardware, OR the Amiga.

Amiga multitasking isn't the greatest, but DOS was abysmal at it. The OS we were using, Microware's OS-9 for the 68K was much better than either at that, and was not only multitasking and multi-user, but functionally real time as well.
I mention that last one as Windows and Linux both to this day are not well suited to real time applications, with their unpredictable scheduling.
Further, Windows is not considered a mission critical OS. Doubt that? Read the EULA, and its qualifiers.
You don't see Windows embedded in machines that can't afford failure (like heart monitors).
If OS-9 had ever been advanced to SMP, I'd probably still be developing under it today.

UNIX derived and UNIX-like OS have been around about as long as DOS and Windows, Linux was comparatively young at this point.

And no, I don't think the Amiga was all that original either, but these days much of what made the Amiga interesting is credited to the PC and the Mac.
Hi-Res color graphics (when most PCs were either black and white or offered only 4 or 16 colors), graphics acceleration (via the blitter), stereo sound (versus a bit banging speaker), and a standard GUI (instead of an optional add on).
And Macs? Originally black and white (with tiny screens), only beginning to offer color models.

Few people remember how truly dreadful DOS and MacOS were originally.
I do, and I'm not going to easily forget it, even if I like OSX (with its BSD underpinnings) and later versions of Windows (once the NT kernel replaced DOS as its base).

Again, all this focus on those two platforms has helped them immensely in finally smoothing over the rough edges and giving them the utility they lacked early on.
But at an enormous cost, AND, in the process, making an few arrogant rip off artists rich beyond understanding.

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WolfpackN64 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 20:57:48
#123 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 300
From: Unknown

@wawa

Radeon has been making leaps and bounds with Mesa as of late.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 21:10:27
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
As to Windows ever being a real competitor until the NT kernel was introduced,


there was windows nt for professional use at the time of windows98 and before. win95/98 were aimed at home usage and were accaptable for that purpose, suffering at best similar shorthcomings as amiga operating system had, memory protection as example, therefore crashy with buggy drivers or software.

Quote:
For our hardware, OR the Amiga


amiga enthusiasm is all fine and good, but general public has declared windows pc competitive in compoarison with amiga much earlier than 98. and they had definitely some points. i have had opportunity to compare the same software on amiga and pc mid nineties, stuff like imagine, then lightwave. with pentium cpu the train departed, never to be cought up again.

Quote:
Few people remember how truly dreadful DOS and MacOS were originally.


yes, mac was mostly monochrome 0-1 and pretty crashy, but it had professional application, and this kept it alive. ms-dos, well it was limited as hell, but you might have met people who considered it not that bad, i have such a friend.

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 21:10:50
#125 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@ferrels

Funny Steve, I don't denigrate your education.
And mine? I actually started at a community college, but I moved to the University of Delaware, and then on to two other local colleges.
Also, I'm not too familiar with the University of Maryland, but I did visit UMES (University of Maryland Eastern Shore) several times to to attend different conferences.

And I've been in business longer than you, and my degrees are related to business management.
In fact, as I've stated before, there were no IT degrees when I graduated High School.
And I was recruited while I was still in High School by Dr. Fred Hoffstetter of the U of D (who eventually became the Director of Multimedia Education at that school).

So, what you went to school for, I had to learn in the field.

All verifiable, and hardly involving diploma mills.

So, now that I've wasted everyone's time here with my history, could we move on to the point?

Simply stated, you're wrong, the continued success of Aeon proves that.
Yes, its just a hobby, but its one I'm justifiably proud of, as I have been using Motorola cpus since the 6800.

And your X86 based commodity hardware? Never should have become the standard. It wasn't suited to the task when IBM was foolish enough to choose it, and it took far too much engineering to get it to the point where it was adequate.

So, "professional", your hubris shows, but you're not blowing smoke up MY ass, because I was there before you.

To everyone else, my apologies for the bull crap.
I have little patience these days for negativity.

Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 09:18 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 21:12:29
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@WolfpackN64


Quote:
Radeon has been making leaps and bounds with Mesa as of late.


then its time to update aros mesa/gallium i guess. i think it is on kals list after smp, and some preparations have been already made.

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 21:14:56
#127 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@wawa

Quote:
mac was mostly monochrome 0-1 and pretty crashy, but it had professional application


Yep, that and the software availability on the PC was what spelled our doom.

Software availability is the one area where Steve and I actually agree.
Without it, what's the point in having the hardware?

@wawa

Quote:
Quote: Radeon has been making leaps and bounds with Mesa as of late.

then its time to update aros mesa/gallium i guess


That would make my day.
I've been a big fans of ATI/AMD gpus for years.

Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 09:17 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 21:41:09
#128 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
That would make my day. I've been a big fans of ATI/AMD gpus for years.


me not. must have had bad luck with them. but im all for variety and extended support;)

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 22:13:55
#129 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@wawa

The initial driver support for any new ATI/AMD gpu IS uniformly buggy.

But until the Geforce 4, Nvidia's low to mid-range cards were pretty weak.

In a way, its a shame 3DFX didn't survive (although SLI lives on).
I keep a Voodoo3 around because it will boot in most PCI equipped systems more reliably than an ATI derived card.

And some of the S3 stuff I had worked fairly well.

ATI...eh, the Rage 128 did some things better than early Radeons (which I believe work started on only after ATI bought ArtX). But the Radeons steadily improved, and I got the longest life I've ever had with a video card family when the R300s were introduced.

Amigas have utilized ATI cards for some time, with the R200 series still seeing a lot of use in PCI equipped legacy machines and in NG machines.

BUT, Nvidia's open driver support has always been better than ATI/AMD's.

Now with Vulkan, AMD seems to have some advantages, particularly in the mid-range.
I can get an RX480 quite cheaply, and its a pretty good card.

I can't quite see the logic in buying a really high end Nvidia card, too expensive.

Sorry for bouncing around there, that was kind of a "stream of consciousness" rant.

Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 10:18 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 10:16 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 10:15 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 23:05:23
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@iggy

sorry, it seems you keep bringing up some prehistorical issues, what relevance has pre geforce-4, rage 128, 3dfx, voodoo.. stuff like that, for those interested in (almost) contmporary x86/x68 hardware? if mediator amigas utilized ati, this might have to do with some particular advantage 15 years ago, not today. same as thos ppc fans that never surrender, because they still think x86 is evil, as hey have been tought. honestly, this is not an amiga issue. this is a competition between foreign vendors, we have no stake at. i always wonder, why would that matter for us, except we are being a misused party in some chip wars (unlikely or rather only as blindfolded insignificant volontary for no effort). same as if the fpga amiga fraction was fighting xlinx vs altera ( to my knowledge they dont, luckily).

Last edited by wawa on 27-Mar-2017 at 11:07 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 27-Mar-2017 23:15:29
#131 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@iggy

Quote:
So, "professional", your hubris shows, but you're not blowing smoke up MY ass, because I was there before you.


There's absolutely nothing professional about you as evidenced by your need to sling profanity around and launch personal attacks.

Your personal attacks show just how serious your anger control issues are as well as your inferiority complex by claiming that you're first in some imaginary race where you seem to be the only contestant.

Your glut of postings on several forums including this one is your attempt at using them as a bully pulpit to force your views on others. And whenver you're challenged, you immediately fall back onto the 3 D's (deflect, defer and distract). First you try to dazzle everyone with your education and experience, and when that fails, you throw out a bunch of info that's totally irrelevant and unrelated to the topic at hand or launch a personal attack.

I'm sorry, but most of the folks here aren't intimidated by you in the least and your attempt to beat us into submission with your posts only makes you look like a bitter, mean old man who never received the recognition and respect he sought in the real world so he tries to make up for it in the virtual world. Your rantings remind me of Cartman's Respect My Authoritae Video.

https://youtu.be/sgkHl_77Dls

Last edited by ferrels on 28-Mar-2017 at 04:01 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 28-Mar-2017 at 03:42 AM.

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 10:53:33
#132 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@ferrels

Steve, you seem to be the one focused on personal attacks, I could care less as I was fairly well established when you were still in school (again, studying things I picked up by working in the field).

You can continue on, but its kind off pointless, as I'm completely comfortable with what I've managed to accomplish.

@wawa

You're right, its all old history.
I got over my resistance to Intel cpus once the i386 was introduced (and I could port some of my 68K software).
The Pentium WAS pretty cool, and I stayed with Socket 7 cpus until the last mobile AMD K62+ and K6-III+ processors were released.
Since then I've bounced back and forth between Intel and AMD. Socket370 peaked with the Tualatin PIII and Celeron, but the Pentium 4 flat out sucked.
AMD's Athlon series helped make up for that, but Intel managed to recover by going back to the drawing board and incorporating some of the best features of the Netburst architecture with ideas borrowed from their Pentium III derived mobile processors (giving birth to the Core processors).

At this point, I'm pretty cpu agnostic. ARM, Power, X64...whatever. Can it run the software I want to run adequately? If so, then I'm cool.

Do I think we could have gotten here quicker? Damned skippy.

I was using OS' that borrowed from UNIX in the '80s, and look where we are now, almost 40 years later.

BTW - I DO think I'm learning something here from my interaction with SteveO.
Hope you all don't think I'm here to tell you what to think.
We have a common interest, and a history, and as I've said before, its one I'm proud of.

We had this right before they did, and now its little more than forgotten history.

BUT, regardless of the minor differences between us, and our personal preferences, we do need to stick together and not abuse each other TOO much (well...maybe a little ).

SO, y'all take care.

Jim

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thellier 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 11:40:20
#133 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris


>You can continue on, but its kind off pointless

I have a theory:
"For any forum subject if it exceed 2 pages then no need to read as it had already fallen in stupid wars like mine is better than yours (whatever)"

Alain Thellier


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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 13:26:23
#134 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@thellier

Thanks, I apologize for my part in diverting you all through that testosterone laden chest beating.
Apparently at one point I offended Steve, and he is unable to let that go.

I think it was my insistence that some NG software had real world utility.
But honestly, outside of games, would you use software that didn't provide that?
And software like that is essential to our continued survival, and fact that even Steve would agree with.

So, I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider NG a practical solution. And I've never stated that I do. Price wise, its a losing proposition, and its only likely to appeal to those of in the Amiga community.

But! Since when has practicality or economics ruled our decision making processes?
Sure, this isn't an approach likely to appeal to the masses.

However, we DO have some software that can serve as a substitute for the common PC (or other devices). AND, with my past pursuits, I find this appealing.

So, as a general plea, lets not get too childish when we face off on our personal preferences.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 16:58:19
#135 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2155
From: Australia

@iggy

Low to mid spec nvidia cards were quite reasonable well before gf4, at least on par with anything else at the time. In fact going back as far as the original TNT cards they were very competitive. Their m64 cards were best bang per buck at the time, ditto the gf2mx. Geforce3ti200 was even better value, and the 1st affordable card with pixel shaders.

In fact it was with the release of the gf4 range that their low to mid spec cards were pretty ordinary. The gf4mx cards were basically gf2s with a newer fabrication.

As for CPM/dos the similarities aren't coincidental. CPMs wishy-washy attitude/conviction was why IBM opted to use dos (developed in a rush to fullfil a commitment).

Also, and this is a bit off topic, but I wonder how many people are aware that microsoft's original plan of attack, OS wise was a Unix variation, which actually gained a little traction. It was market demands, and once again a business comitment/opportunity that caused them to develop Windows.

Now as for the original question, its kind of silly. Tabor might sell a few, but its hardly going to entice many new people. There's a million and one more powerful arm boards for under 50euro, with better support. Additionally for 400euro a person can buy an 8core/16 thread Ryzen system. Most people with an interest in "alternative" computing will opt for either one of them rather than a system they've probably never heard of. All in all I expect WinUAE to be the platform of choice for those who want to play with OS4 but don't want to spend a lot.

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 17:55:06
#136 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@fishy_fis

You know, I almost forgot about the GeforceMX. I had a 200 and a 400. The TNT64 I wasn't too fond of, but it was cheap.

As to Tabor, I think it will be reasonably successful, but its crippled fpu does kind of shoot it in the foot.
But, as the cheapest entry into OS4 outside of UAE, it will attract some interest.
The biggest problem I have with Tabor, other than the cpu's fpu, is the use of a 32bit cpu.
While we don't support 32 or 64 bit addressing yet, all previous Aeon boards have used 64 bit cpus.
And while the e500 cored cpu used runs at an adequate speed, comparably priced 64 bit e5500 cored cpus are available.

Still, I've already apologized to Trevor for continually harping on this point.
Tabor is very unlikey to received a port of MorphOS as there are cheaper alternatives that run as well or faster.
But for OS4....

Also, while I will agree that ARM is cheap, the lack of documentation for most of the gpus used in the Socs is problematic.
Its probably the best selling point for the Raspberry Pi, a gpu that is well documented.

And Ryzen? Yeah, that's my next upgrade, although the cost of the eight core versions is about three times what I paid for my FX-8100.

Still, the benchmarks are damned impressive. As always, AMD functions to keep Intel on its toes.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 18:51:34
#137 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2155
From: Australia

@iggy

There's 3 8 core Ryzen CPUs. The 1800x is probably the worst value (although still quite reasonable), but the 1700 can be found for just under $300, and if a person is inclined seems to clock pretty much identically to the $500 1800x.

I already have an i7@4ghz Windows system, a 4ghz i5 AROS box, plus my i5 laptop so I'll probably hold out for Ryzen2 (already being touted as what AMD wanted Ryzen to be by amd engineers.... very much parallels phenom/phenom2 sans bugs), but I was very happy to see amd back in the game performance wise.
With no real competition Intel started to behave very monopolistic over the last few years. Last time they were really pushed was great for the consumer. I hope/expect the same to happen again.

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blakespot 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 21:00:46
#138 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2007
Posts: 85
From: Alexandria, VA (USA)

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@Hans

Yeah, but...(and I know I repeat this WAY too often), I want a four core X5000.

And Tabor should have been based on an e5500 cored cpu.


But...OS4.1 does not support multiple cores.

_________________
:::: Amigas: 1000, 2000 '020, SAM440ep-Flex 733

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sabworks 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 8:13:20
#139 ]
New Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2017
Posts: 5
From: Unknown

@amigang

Have faith, I have been using WIndows and Mac for years. I plan on building a A1222 rig when the motherboard is released. When I was a teenager in the early 90's I wanted an Amiga desperately but PC and Mac was all that was available. Bring on the A1222. I joined this forum yesterday to keep in the loop and learn from seasoned Amigans.

Boing

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sabworks 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 8:16:35
#140 ]
New Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2017
Posts: 5
From: Unknown

@amigang

Have faith, I have been using WIndows and Mac for years. I plan on building a A1222 rig when the motherboard is released. When I was a teenager in the early 90's I wanted an Amiga desperately but PC and Mac was all that was available. Bring on the A1222. I joined this forum yesterday to keep in the loop and learn from seasoned Amigans.

Boing

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