@Overflow

So which are you, an atheist or an agnostic?
Because there is a huge difference between the two.

A atheist claims to know there is no God, and an agnostic claims not to know if there is a God.

The first is position of pure hubris expressed by an evolved simian, the second is a bit more thoughtful.

I'd never feel comfortable with the first, as I'm sure it possible to evolve further level of consciousness, the second is a least rational as you can not prove a negative.

And, as even some physicist now believe the Universe itself might be sentient, I think there is still room for argument.

Just not over the validity of documents thousand of years old as an absolute source of truth.
That's just primitive tribalism.

Last edited by iggy on 01-Jul-2017 at 10:11 PM.

@BigD

You nowhere gave any evidence of an existance of god.
And you cannot, all you have/provide is some believe...
There is no case closed.

And for quick evolution: Look for example to bullfish in lower rhine region. A new species fills an ecological niche. Pretty fast evolution.

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@iggy

I would say agnostic, since I cant prove either or with regards to the existance of God.

@iggy

Quote:

My friend Father Coco said to her "You know, much of this is just stories, right?"

Quote:

And Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all remarkably similar in this matter and are a continuum of the same thought (pretty much, from related people).

That's exactly why corrupted Roman Catholic heresy or liberal evangelical 'Christian' heresy is 100 times more dangerous that the falsehhood that comes from the likes of Nimrod. The liberal Christians pretend that they are the friendly, trendy and approachable ecumenical face of Christianity when in fact the truth is if they reject one part of the Bible they effectively reject it all and instead invent their own cuddly idol worshipping cult of their own.

A faith in Jesus has NOTHING in common with Islam (or any other so called 'faith' for that matter other than the obvious commonality that exists with Judaism in regards to the Old Testament). Islam does NOT teach forgiveness only patience in the face of a majority population of ruling infidels. A population with no clear moral absolutes or core ideals (like the UK) is weak in their eyes and since the non-Islamic population are encouraged to keep their family sizes small for the sake of 'The Planet' the fact that Muslims are in the minority may only be the case for the next few decades.

The only error in actions of the recent terrorists in the UK as far as their sacred text is concerned is that they struck at the infidels (us) while we are still in the majority. These persecutions of the infidels are only officially tolerated once a Sunni style Saudi Arabian state is set up in place of a failed liberal British secular state (which the liberal elite want to replace our Christian country or what's left of it). Then we'll see how forgiving Islam really is

It'll be less about ransonware then and more about holding the country to ranson. You can't really argue that we're not bringing it on ourselves.

The next phase of this process seems to be 'British Values' a last ditch attempt to pretend we have common morals and values above and beyond our shared Christian heritage. All that this secular approach will lead to will be minority segregated Islamic communities favoured, protected and promoted in our education system and public sector right up until the point the new regime takes over.

The only future that doesn't not feature the entire capitulation of our our way of life involves returning to a respect and worship of Yahweh the one true God (God of the Bible) i.e. a revival. If we don't turn back to God as a nation then us like most likely Germany, France and the majority of Europe will in all eventuality be transformed into extremely intolerant Islamic states before the turn of the century. Where will all of your liberal free thinking 'enlightenment' ideas get you then? Locked up or beheaded no doubt.

.. that or Jesus will return before all that horror begins.

Last edited by BigD on 01-Jul-2017 at 10:42 PM.

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@BigD

Tell the Yemen civilians about the UK moral superiority;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/arms-sales-saudi-arabia-theresa-may-staunch-defence-keep-people-streets-britain-safe-a7230836.html

Not to mention UK (and the West) considering the Wahabi Saudis as allies.

On that topic;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwoj3U5Awo

@Overflow

Exactly they are already our allies. Go figure

We have no 'moral superiority' because we kill our own children at a rate of 200,000 a year and have the audacity to teach our slightly older children about 'equality' which involves elevating the religion of Islam (the religion that would teach that our western Christian based culture should be destroyed) to be on par with a faith in Yahweh! And the sickening thing is all the liberals think that's fine because you're deluded enough to think that science has disproved the NEED for a faith in anything! So you'll let them get away with it at the expense of the Christians.



Just like you they need Jesus Christ. The problem is in an Islamic country (Sunni or Shia) you get beheaded for trying to teach them the Gospel.

Last edited by BigD on 01-Jul-2017 at 10:50 PM.

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@iggy

Quote:

So which are you, an atheist or an agnostic?

Well, I´m highly religious person, but my faith doesn´t have concept of God. Am I an atheist?

I can´t prove pink space unicorns didn´t created our world, but I certainly wouldn´t call someone refusing this as a man full of hubris.

@pavlor

Quote:

Well, I´m highly religious person, but my faith doesn´t have concept of God. Am I an atheist?

Not at all, Buddhism neither affirms nor disaffirms the existence of a God, but its a religion I respect quite deeply.

Of all of us here, only BigD claims to have proof of God's existence.
Personally, I'd think that would negate the need for faith, but then by BigD's thinking, I'm a heretic anyway.

And as to BigD's complex with Muslims, I have Muslim and Jewish friends (and in one case an Afgani friend who is friends with a Jewish couple I know).

Radical Islam is not all of Islam, and Muslims consider Jesus a prophet and the Bible a holy book.
Also, if you read the Quran, you'll see many parallels to Jewish and Christian faiths as well as many of the same people including Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, David, John the Baptist and a host of others.

I guess arguing that Jesus is coming back to kick some ass works for some people, but in my mind its an allegory for a return to espoused values.

So as long as fanatics argue over specifics, we are never going to get back to that focus on treating each other better that I mentioned a couple of posts ago.

Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 01:03 AM.

@iggy

Maybe BigD should read some of the books by Karen Armstrong

No an easy read, but she does lay out the common origins of the 3 mayor religions (judaism/islam/christianity)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 02-Jul-2017 at 12:12 AM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 01-Jul-2017 at 11:58 PM.

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@jorit2

Thank you Evert, I'll look that over.
A study of these religions in their historical context is always very enlightening.
After all, you have to look at these religions from an anthropologist's viewpoint.
The culture in which the author's lived greatly affects the contents of the documents they created.

And all three religions are intimately related.
Which makes the conflicts between their adherents all the more startling.

@iggy

Quote:

Radical Islam is not all of Islam

Wrong! Islam is a dangerous and extremist belief system that threatens our way of life. It is just that thankfully not ALL Muslims choose to enact all the Qu'ran and Hadith's teachings regarding Jihad in every situation all the time (because the situation in which they find themselves living should dictate their actions in this regard). Rest assured when they are in the majority even the seemingly peaceful populace would be urged to persecute the infidels and usurp our Christian based laws and democracy with their own Saudi Arabian or Iranian system of governance.

I have Muslim friends as well but is doesn't mean that I consider their faith at all compatible with Christian values. The concept of 'British values' is a joke!

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@BigD

Quote:

that I consider their faith at all compatible with Christian values.

Given the not so nice history of Christians, I wouldn't take their values as a good benchmark

Evert

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@jorit2

Since our entire British legal system, concepts of fair play and justice and all our prosperity and standing in the world is in direct correlation with our loyalty to God and how seriously we took the call to send out missionaries to the rest of the world, I'd say you'd be a fool not to see the values as a good benchmark. Heck if we hadn't prayed for salvation as a nation during WW2 there wouldn't even still be a United Kingdom just a small island outpost of the Western USSR.

However, if you want to try spouting off any Anti-Allah rhetoric in Saudi Arabia then by all means post on this forum how it goes if you can find a wifi signal before you're dealt with

_________________
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@Thread

This thread is taking a different turn. It's no longer looking like our primary concern is regarding ransomware but more likely we'll soon be tasked with paying the ransom to Saudi Arabia for the release of jorit2!



God speed jorit2. You stand up for secular liberal values in Saudi Arabia as is your calling.

Last edited by BigD on 02-Jul-2017 at 12:30 AM.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@jorit2

Quote:

Given the not so nice history of Christians, I wouldn't take their values as a good benchmark

Well, there was the "Children's Crusade" in the middle ages, but I doubt BigD has ever heard of that event (or realizes how much the Crusades in general helped shape Islam).

Then there's that unfortunate event at Hagia Sofia that split the Catholic church into Roman and Orthodox factions.

And of course BigD's own claim to have Muslim friends but also to not think that their religion was compatible with Christian values.
See any parallel their between Christian and Muslim fanatics that both insisting the other must convert?

@BigD

Quote:

Since our entire British legal system, concepts of fair play and justice and all our prosperity and standing in the world is in direct correlation with our loyalty to God

That would be the first time anyone would have convinced me that the Brexit is a good thing !

Congrats

Evert

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@BigD

Quote:

if we hadn't prayed for salvation as a nation during WW2 there wouldn't even still be a United Kingdom

More like, if we hadn't loaned you huge amounts of armament, then sent over a gigantic army you wouldn't be there.

And believe me, if Hitler hadn't been such a general threat to humanity, you'd be speaking German right now, as the US has no particular reason to look on the Empire favorably.

And by the way, as a Protestant, I find it offensive that the primary reason your country has the Church of England is that your King couldn't keep his dick in his pants.

Martin Luther's arguments were valid, King Henry's were obscene.

Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 12:37 AM.

@iggy

Yes, I've studied them. It seems to have been a way of the Roman Catholic church to placate and gain influence amongst the rulers of Europe by giving official license for mercenaries to raid and pillage heretically in the name of God.

That the 4th Crusade was used as a smoke screen to rape and pillage Constantinople the capital of the Eastern Holy Roman Empire (a Christian ally) tells you all you need to know about the motivations behind the excercise; human greed.

Greed, unemployed labourers with nothing to do, and a sick and corrupt Roman Catholic Church that thought it should jump on the band wagon to keep support amongst the Kingdoms in Europe! Rather than condemn the actions of these private armies they gave their blessing

There was even a crusade involving a group of peasants and children children (The Children's Crusade) some of whom eventually boarded vessels in the south of France for the Holy Land and instead were sold into slavery in Northern Africa. I guess with all the child protection issues that still occur to this day with the Roman Catholic Churches we shouldn't be surprised they allowed a marching group of children to be exploited in this way without attempting to stop them! It's where we get the story of the Pied Piper from!

For more useful social commentry on doing dubious things not explicitly taught in the Bible listen to Rage Against the Machine's song: Killing in the Name Of.

It has about as little to do with the Bible as the crusades but if heresy and blasphemy is your thing trying playing it after mass on a Sunday! It'll do less damage than a Papal blessing for the ransacking of Constantinople and might give the choir boys an idea of what to say to the Pope if he ever told them to march to Marseille!

The difference with Jihad or 'struggle' is that it's a centre stone of the Muslim belief. Crusading on the other hand was the idea of Kings to deal with a medieval unemployment problem! Yes, the Pope was part of problem but since all the Popes claimed to be the equivalent of Apostle Peter, persecuted true Christians e.g. the Huguenots and were just as corrupt as most of the Kings I don't see what any of this has to do with a faith in Jesus Christ?

Last edited by BigD on 02-Jul-2017 at 01:08 AM.

_________________
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@iggy

Quote:

And by the way, as a Protestant, I find it offensive that the primary reason your country has the Church of England is that your King couldn't keep his dick in his pants.

Who are you to decide what is and what isn't a palatable way for God to work good in bad situations? King Henry was a tyrant, Pearl Harbour was horrific but both led to answers to prayers of British Christians and benefited the world ultimately. Henry destroyed the power of the Roman Catholic Church in England and enabled Queen Elizabeth to protect and prosper the 'Reformation'.

Pearl Harbour 'pushed' America into WW2 and stopped the UK ultimately becoming a satellite state of Germany or the USSR.

God answers prayers but you don't get to choose how.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

My apologies, on that, you do know the history.
And you ARE right that is has not reflection on the Bible itself.

However, the rise of Islam can be directly correlated with the invasions and occupations during the Crusades.

Frankly, if you want to blame radical Islam on a historic figure, Saladin would be a better choice than Mohamed.

And Islamic reinvention and reinterpretation of the Quran and other document held sacred could also be part of the problem.

But that would feed back into your argument that a rigid understanding of one document is essential to building a proper religion.
And I don't think those of us that take liberties with your text are quite the moral equivalent of those that warp Islamic faith.

Nor do I believe that Islam is inherently incompatible with other religions.

In fact, until Israel (a theocracy based on one religion) was founded, Palestine was functioning fairly well with a population of all three of these related religions.

Fundamentally, its intolerance that makes it impossible to coexist.

Last edited by iggy on 02-Jul-2017 at 01:15 AM.