@BigD

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If we all evolved from nothing via amoebas, suddenly developing a highly precise optical instrument human eyeball mk1 at a certain point in time that presumably is precisely fine tuned again due to another million to the power of infinity random flukes through a million to the power of infinity years, presumably none of this matters?

We did evolve from single celled organisms, but evolution takes time, a lot of time, billions of years. The fact that some people can't comprehend that fact, does not make it false.

The eye is far from perfectly tuned, it is actually very flawed, think glasses and so on.
The eye have evolved several times, hence the reason why the eyes of a squid, nautilus, human, cat, fish, spider, fly are very different. An intelligent designer would not use time to develop the same thing many different ways.

A perfect god should not have to sacrifice his only son, to forgive our sins, they could just have been forgiven.. right

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we all need Jesus and WHY life without Him has no purpose, no hope

Maybe not to you, but to many others, life makes perfect sense.

Ohh, and of more than the 1200 different registred religions, why is yours the correct one?

Please spare us your lectures, and for your own sake, don't buy into the mass hysteria, that organised religion is.

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Almost forgot, evolution has failed so many times, yet it keeps on failing and succeding.
No need for any magical being for that to happen.

And again, just because you don't get it, does not make it untrue.

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@Yssing

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A perfect god should not have to sacrifice his only son, to forgive our sins, they could just have been forgiven.. right

Is that how you think our law courts should operate? A murderer, rapist, thief etc attends court and is told he / she needn't have bothered as the crime didn't need any punishment anyway - they're forgiven! I'd like to see how long you'd stick to this view when the mob are trashing your house and attacking YOUR family. Maybe the fact we have a righteous and perfect judge in Yahweh would mean something to you then?

Your claim that 'magically' eye balls are generated and complex proteins form life out of chaos just because 'millions of years' are at play IS A FAITH POSITION! You trust in time as YOUR GOD. I go back to the monkeys and the elephant trying to build a computer; however long you lock them in the factory the fact that they are 'chaotically' throwing chips at motherboards and waving soldering irons around will never create anything never mind a complex machine. A DESIGNER is required NOT CHAOS!

YOU are pretending YOUR faith position / 'enlightened' world view is the truth when you have NO proof that we evolved from monkeys never mind amoeba never mind lifeless proteins is a swamp umpteen 'INSERT NUMBER TO THE POWER OF INFINITY HERE' million years ago!

Your FAITH in the creative forces of 'CHAOS' is absurd. Just as absurd is the hypothesis that; "anything can be created out of DNA mutations that normally create illness and disease" through the magical force of 'TIME PASSING'! Both assumptions requires far more faith than faith in Jesus and the Bible. Not what you want to hear but true!

What do we observe form physics?
Answer: We live in an ordered universe not a chaotic one! The astronomical constants observed and required for known carbon based life to survive on Earth are iinfinitesimally small as to be FAR more likely to be put in place by a creator rather than being a fluke!

Has DNA mutation ever created a entirely new species that cannot then reproduce with its originator species? If such a mutation was created it would not be enough to simply randomly produce one new and unique species individual in that generation as you'd require a male and a female with the anomalous DNA which again is a ridiculously small probability and they'd probably both be sterile and weaker as observed from mutations in nature (i.e. not the X-Men ).

DNA mutation produces, weakness, illness and death. Different genes can be passed down by natural selection but this does not equate to evolution or new higher species from lower species or significantly different DNA.

Ultimately, if in doubt trust God and the Bible rather than secular evolutionary scientists who continue to build up their body of work on a house of cards based on the previous generation's baseless assumptions. There is no observable 'scientific method' proper science in evolutionary science just theoretical quacks with far too much to lose if they question their liberal support base's world views / faith positions and their quest to disprove the existence God!

Merry Christmas!
Newsboys - God's Not Dead

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@fishy_fis

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Yes, because she was written out of texts over time.

By who, Gentiles, Jews?

Or perhaps God. With reference to the below. Who then is God?

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"God" seems like a prick. Writing his 1st daughter out of existence for simply being the person he made her.

What evidence do we have of this Lilith in scrolls or other sources that were removed from the scriptures?

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She was God's 1st daughter created at the same time, from the same clay as Adam, but she was too promiscuous and powerful (God created her that way)

The obvious problem with this is God creating a being with an ungodly nature then banishing that being for being so. Which doesn't make sense.

The other problem is her being a daughter. Adam is not referred to as being a son of God, but rather created in the image of God.

And with this an elephant in the room. It implies Adam and Lilith were brother and sister. Of course he doesn't wasnt her on top!

Filith more like.

It would mean with Eve that the entire master race could be created without men sleeping with their sister. Or their niece.

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Genesis 1:27 apparently references some of this.

Yeah, apparently, doesn't sound very convincing. It comes across as more eisegesis than exegesis. And without a direct reference to Lilith as clear as Adam in the ealiest and untouched Genesis we can find I don't see it as proof. Nor without any other book that back references Genesis 1:27 or the like.

To me this smacks of the gap theory. Putting things in the text that arent there. In one installment, between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, is where apparently an earth was created, Satan fell down and ruinied the place, over the course of billions of years, with giant animals roaming the place, and the creation story tells how it was restored then people created and so on. The hint being that because a verse doesn't say good it means it was bad. And Genesis 2 being mistranslated, where it should have said, the earth become null and void like a corrupt C pointer. The problem, of course is that Genesis doesn't read that way. Not to me. Excuses like, Genesis is on a need to know basis, we aren't told the first creation but are told the next, just don't cut for me.

All in all, this reminds me of a favorite song, which I think is apt. Genesis. Land of Confusion!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHmH1xQ2Pf4

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@BigD

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Is that how you think our law courts should operate? A murderer, rapist, thief etc attends court and is told he / she needn't have bothered as the crime didn't need any punishment anyway - they're forgiven! I'd like to see how long you'd stick to this view when the mob are trashing your house and attacking YOUR family. Maybe the fact we have a righteous and perfect judge in Yahweh will mean something to you then?

Straw man fallacy, no where did I mention anything about the judicial system, but now we are at it, you do realise, that different countries have different laws, even though those are of the same religion.

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Your claim that 'magically' eye balls are generated and complex proteins form life out of chaos just because 'millions of years' are at play IS A FAITH POSITION! You trust in time as YOUR GOD.

No time is time, time exists no matter my or anyones beliefs.
God however, is something some one made up a long time ago, as a way of explaining things.

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I go back to the monkeys and the elephant trying to build a computer; however long you lock them in the factory the fact that they are 'chaotically' throwing chips at motherboards and waving soldering irons around will never create anything never mind a complex machine.

Argument from ignorance, you know, I hope, how computers are made, right?

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YOU are pretending YOUR faith position / 'enlightened' world view is the truth when you have NO proof that we evolved from monkeys never mind amoeba never mind lifeless proteins is a swamp umpteen 'INSERT NUMBER TO THE POWER OF INFINITY HERE' million years ago!

Again Straw man fallacy, you are asuming my "faith" and the attacking that sumption.
By the way, there are many examples of said evolution, that have been proven by many different scientists. That is why scientific discoveries are peer reviewed before being accepted as an answer. Sometimes that answer is later changed, when scientists makes new discoveries.

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Your FAITH in the creative forces of 'CHAOS' is absurd. Just as absurd is the hypothesis that; "anything can be created out of DNA mutations that normally create illness and disease" through the magical force of 'TIME PASSING'! Both assumptions requires far more faith than faith in Jesus and the Bible. Not what you want to hear but true!

Science does not require faith, it does require the acceptance, that we don't know everything, but that is why science is still, well, science. If we had just accepted the very first explanation, that was given, we would still live in caves, but that is not the case. Science does not require Jesus or the bible, heck, just look at all the non-christian scientists out there.

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What do we observe form physics? Answer: We live in an ordered universe not a chaotic one! The astronomical constants observed and required for known carbon based life to survive on Earth are infinitesimal small as to be FAR more likely to be put in place by a creator rather than being a fluke!

Argument from ignorance, you don't undertstand the science, therefor God. Yes the chances of life are very slim, or infinitesimal, but we do live in an almost infinite universe, when countless of planets and stars, so the chance that life exists are actually pretty big. By the way have you ever heard of the multiverse theory?

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Has DNA mutation ever created a entirely new species that cannot reproduce with itself? If such a mutation was created it would not be enough to simply randomly produce one new and unique species individual in that generation as you'd require a male and a female with the anomalous DNA which again is a ridiculously small probability and they'd probably both be sterile and weaker as observed from mutations in nature

That is simply not true. A child of a given species will always be of the same as the parents, evolution happens over several generations. But they happen, just take humans, there is not just one "white blue eyed version" but there are different people adapted to different environments. That is the essence of evolution, adapting to the environment, adapt or perish. That is also one of the reasons why less than 1% of all living organismns that have every existed actually exists today. A good example of this is MRSA, good for those bacterias, not so much for us, but evolution does not care about who is it not good for. I actually think you do not know how evolution works.

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DNA mutation produces, weakness, illness and death. Different genes can be passed down by natural selection but this does not equate to evolution or new higher species from lower species or significantly different DNA.

That is just wrong. Now I know you don't understand evolution. So many of your arguments are from ignorance.

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Ultimately, if in doubt trust God and the Bible

Dude, really? Argument from ignorance.
What about the all the other religions with there take on creation, why is you religion the only correct one?
I think I asked you about earlier.

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@fishy_fis

We'll just have to give up on this discussion, I'm afraid, since we're miles apart and not likely to find any common ground. I'm very sorry that you're such an angry person.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@BigD

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However, you really can't blame God for the living conditions in the one place in the universe where He is not the landlord and where He has specifically warned you that He doesn't want you to go there whilst providing the guidance and way to avoid it!

Well said!

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@Yssing

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That is simply not true. A child of a given species will always be of the same as the parents, evolution happens over several generations. But they happen, just take humans, there is not just one "white blue eyed version" but there are different people adapted to different environments. That is the essence of evolution...

Argument from ignorance. Correction: Natural selection does not equal evolution.

I don't think YOU know how evolution works as you confuse 'natural selection' with evolution. You already point out that the offspring of two parents is ALWAYS of the same species!! Therefore by your own logic though their eyes may change colour and their skin may be darker or lighter, whether one generation apart or 70 the descendants of those 'parents' will NEVER become a new species never mind a higher species!

I don't blame you for this confusion as the school system seems to blur the difference and scientific discoveries such as the shape of Galapagos finches being naturally selected on different islands with different food sources, to then be used to erroneously extrapolate carte blanche to say that all life developed from Amoeba!

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What about the all the other religions with there take on creation, why is you religion the only correct one?

What about them? Jesus claimed to be the narrow path;

John 14:6.
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Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Matthew 7:13-14.
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Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Merry Christmas!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Science today is faith-based. It's commonly known as 'scientism'. You aren't allowed to question the holy god himself Albert Einstein.

Tesla [and many other REAL scientists] pooped all over his butt and all technology we use today comes from Tesla yet it is his holiness that is worshiped despite the fact that he was a fraud.

@Lou

Tesla was not a scientist per se, he was more of an engineer.
Einstein's work has stood the test of time, his theories were thoroughly tested.

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@WolfToTheMoon

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WolfToTheMoon wrote: @Lou Tesla was not a scientist per se, he was more of an engineer. Einstein's work has stood the test of time, his theories were thoroughly tested.

That's a myth.
Anyone can be a scientist. By definition - anyone following the scientific method is a scientist.
When a particular thing studied becomes proven - some invention comes out of it.
Most scientists are engineers.
No one gets a job as 'scientist'. It's not a tangible job. Theoretical scientists are frauds. They get paid for their imagination - not results.
His holiness has produced zero inventions...unlike Tesla.

The Sagnac experiment disproved 'relativity' but it is not taught because what is taught is what someone in power wants/allows you to know.

Meanwhile - ring-laser gyroscopes taking advantage of the 'Sagnac-effect' have been in air-planes since the late 70's...

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@Lou

Sagnac effect did not disprove relativity.
Einstein was a theoretical physicist, who, by definition, do theory. There are experimental physicists whose job is to test the theory.

Both special and general relativity are well and truly tested and they work. Einstein is also one of the founding fathers of quantum theory, even though he disliked the implications and doubted the theory.

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@WolfToTheMoon

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WolfToTheMoon wrote: @Lou Sagnac effect did not disprove relativity. Einstein was a theoretical physicist, who, by definition, do theory. There are experimental physicists whose job is to test the theory. Both special and general relativity are well and truly tested and they work. Einstein is also one of the founding fathers of quantum theory, even though he disliked the implications and doubted the theory.

That's your opinion because you want to 'believe' the excuse for why the Sagnac experiment didn't disprove relativity. And mind you, it was only an excuse. Lorentz contraction, like 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' are excuses someone comes up with to defend their imagination/theory when is doesn't match observation.

That's why it's called 'scientism'.
That's why it's a religion.

@Lou

Well, that 'religion' has made atomic energy possible, as well as modern cosmology, medicine, gps etc... So it obviously works. The issue is that none of our current theories are complete. And that's fine, they work perfectly well within their own areas while we search for better explanation of phenomena outside our understanding.

Religion is something entirely else, it's belief in the absence of any proof. That's why it's called faith, not knowledge.

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@WolfToTheMoon

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WolfToTheMoon wrote: @Lou Well, that 'religion' has made atomic energy possible, as well as modern cosmology, medicine, gps etc... So it obviously works. The issue is that none of our current theories are complete. And that's fine, they work perfectly well within their own areas while we search for better explanation of phenomena outside our understanding. Religion is something entirely else, it's belief in the absence of any proof. That's why it's called faith, not knowledge.

See, this is where you are confused. Real science produces inventions. I have no problem with REAL science.

Atomic energy has nothing to do with Einstein. Radiation produces heat to evaporate water. The steam turns turbines.

Medicine has nothing to do with Einstein. Why are you bring that into this? Though vaccines are a great way to introduce diseases to people who would never otherwise get those diseases.

GPS is land based...just ask anyone flying in the southern 'hemisphere' how well it works over water...
Your cell phone works because of Tesla, not Einstein.

I could go on...

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@Lou

American education system really is as bad as they say

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@BigD

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Argument from ignorance. Correction: Natural selection does not equal evolution. I don't think YOU know how evolution works as you confuse 'natural selection' with evolution.

Here you go: "Natural selection is the differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to differences in phenotype. It is a key mechanism of evolution" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Can you please, in your own words, not using bible qoutes, tell us why your religion is the only correct one out of more than 1200 different religions. I bet you can't.

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@Lou

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Science today is faith-based.

Err.. NO!
Scientific discoveries has to be peer reviewed, that is, the discoveries needs to be able to be reproduced by other scientists. That has nothing to do with faith only facts.

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@Lou

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GPS is land based...just ask anyone flying in the southern 'hemisphere' how well it works over water...

GPs is satelite based, so it works anywhere on or near the Earth where there is an unobstructed line of sight to four or more GPS satellites.
It's not landbased!

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Atomic energy has nothing to do with Einstein.

I think that is more a thing that can be attributed to Marie Curies work.

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Your cell phone works because of Tesla, not Einstein.

No that would be Marconi and before him, most likely Hans Christian Ørsted. And Heinrich Hertz was the first to send and receive radio waves.

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@Yssing

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Can you please, in your own words, not using bible qoutes, tell us why your religion is the only correct one out of more than 1200 different religions. I bet you can't.

Why would I do that? I can't stand religion! Working your way to God is pointless. Only justification through faith in Jesus Christ will make any difference. It is the 'narrow way' and Jesus is clearly described in the Bible as God on earth. From Jesus' claims during his life he was either the Messiah; God in human form, a liar or a madman. There is no room for religious people making out that he was a respected prophet. He claimed to be God so there is no manoeuvring room to claim he was just a good man or respected prophet I'm afraid which makes those that say that phoneys!

Pretty funny your comments about natural selection just being a primary process of evolution! So the unprovable part of the theory you maintain is the truth while natural selection which IS actually observable through finches / human skin colour etc you simply relegate to a process linked to evolution when it is no such thing as an offspring becoming a different species to the parents will never happen by your own admission!

I think your pseudo science has run its course. Evolutionary scientists start at the point of assuming there is no God and try and build a case for it rather than looking at the evidence with a open and scientific mind. That's the truth. Now take a step back this holiday, pick up a copy of Mark's Gospel and see what you think. If it opens your mind to faith in Jesus you gain a lot. If it's not for you then from your perspective it makes you all the more interesting during intellectual debates!

Have a blessed Christmas and may your descendants always remain the same species as yourself!

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_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios