@bison

I guess a lot comes down to which window managers people go for. I've never had to tweak any UI stuff using a command line since the days when multiple monitors were still a novelty about 10 years ago. The closest I've ever come since is having to mess around getting xsane to work properly with my MFP which happened on switching to 16.04 from 12.04.

As for the claim that Linux window managers don't multitask well, one only has to recall what workbench was like before asynchronous copy and delete was introduced. People tend to forget that, but in short, workbench itself was completely single tasking.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

As for the claim that Linux window managers don't multitask well...

I'm not sure what that means. There are many disparaging things that could be said about X11, but I'm not seeing the connection between window managers and mutitasking.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@bison

Let me give you an example.

Er....ah.....how about?...naa...hm.

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Tinkering with computers.

@outrun1978

Quote:

am actually using Debian 9 on the X5000. I can't even transfer files stored from my linux hard drive to an external Flash drive without having to enter in a sudo password first.

That's pretty pathetic. I'm using Fedora 27's KDE spin on a 10 year old Gateway and when I plug in an external flash drive it pops up and asks me if I want to browse it as if it were just another folder. Transferring is trivial. Methinks your problem is more with how you're using Debian; i.e., you're not running it through Gnome desktop or KDE.

My wife & my sister-in-law are in no wise command-line commandos, yet they and my kids use Linux just fine day in and day out (Fedora 27 w/Gnome desktop or, in my in-law's case, SuSE something-or-other). I run a Windows-free, Mac-free shop here, save for the Mac notebook I bring home from work.

Someone else mentioned Firefox bringing the computer to a standstill, or killing multitasking, or something like that. (I couldn't find the original; I was looking for it when I saw outrun's post.) It's probably because you don't have enough memory. Modern browsers are huge memory hogs. It's not entirely their fault: web pages are filled with too much junk (images, videos, and JavaScript); they have to work with too many interfaces (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, WebAssembly, ... and that's just off the top of my head); people like to keep too many tabs open (none of that is free, none of it); and so forth.

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@simplex

Quote:

My wife & my sister-in-law are in no wise command-line commandos, yet they and my kids use Linux just fine day in and day out (Fedora 27 w/Gnome desktop or, in my in-law's case, SuSE something-or-other).

Just to drive home this point, my 10 year-old likes to use my Linux laptop to play My Little Pony flash games, watch My Little Pony videos, and I wouldn't be surprised if before long she starts coding in FIM++.

_________________
I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

@simplex

Quote:

It's probably because you don't have enough memory. Modern browsers are huge memory hogs. It's not entirely their fault: web pages are filled with too much junk (images, videos, and JavaScript); they have to work with too many interfaces (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, WebAssembly, ... and that's just off the top of my head); people like to keep too many tabs open (none of that is free, none of it); and so forth.

Funny you should mention that but Firefox on Linux does feels a tad sluggish on my machine and under Linux it sees the full 4GB Ram I have installed on my X5000

On AmigaOS where the OS can currently only see a maximum of 2GB Ram using Odyssey it really does fly in comparison. Make of that what you will.....

I can also tell you what will really speed up browsing is something my mate has been helping me with which is DNS ad blocking on my home network at the router level. This makes website browsing even quicker so after some successful tests I am looking to pick up another cheap Raspberry Pi to run this full time on my home network


As for the Linux desktop am using on Debian 9 PPC on the X5000, Gnome isnt supported see below
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42413&forum=34&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

And am using LXDE, not your usual Linux distribution it would appear from all the Linux experts on here......

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Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@bison

There was a comment earlier in the thread that desktop Linux doesn't multitask well (and by that I guess they meant tools like nautilus rather than the window manager per se). If you make the comparison between gnome/nautilus and workbench (flawed but not too unreasonable) then it wasnt long ago on the Amiga when just copying files from one place to another froze workbench up entirely until it finished.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@AmigaBlitter

so it is evident that the root cause is not just one of them but all of them!! This is definitely the worst scenario.

@outrun1978

Quote:

As for the Linux desktop am using on Debian 9 PPC on the X5000, Gnome isnt supported see below And am using LXDE, not your usual Linux distribution it would appear from all the Linux experts on here......

The Gnome DESKTOP may not be supported, but I'm sure many Gnome apps will run in the LXDE-environment.

LXDE is an excellent choise as it does not load up tons of apps you will probably never use and still allows you to expand your setup as far as you need.

Start a thread in the Linux forum here and be sure to mention what your setup is. Ask specific questions and people can help.

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Tinkering with computers.

@outrun1978

Quote:

As for the Linux desktop am using on Debian 9 PPC on the X5000, Gnome isnt supported see below

Graphics card incompatibility, it seems. Well, that was well planned.

It's curious; I think in KDE you can turn off hardware acceleration. Is that an option?

Quote:

And am using LXDE, not your usual Linux distribution it would appear from all the Linux experts on here......

I think LXDE is actually pretty common but nowhere as common as Gnome or KDE.

There ought to be some way to replicate the "easy mount" of Gnome and KDE in LXDE that doesn't require the command line, let alone the super user's password. It's not exactly magic, but the developers have to see it as a priority, and coders often don't see things like that as a prioirity.

_________________
I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

@simplex

Quote:

simplex wrote: @outrun1978 There ought to be some way to replicate the "easy mount" of Gnome and KDE in LXDE that doesn't require the command line, let alone the super user's password. It's not exactly magic, but the developers have to see it as a priority, and coders often don't see things like that as a prioirity.

Probably in Users and Groups. User would have to be a member of the Disks group (or something like that.)

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Karlos

Quote:

There was a comment earlier in the thread that desktop Linux doesn't multitask well (and by that I guess they meant tools like nautilus rather than the window manager per se). If you make the comparison between gnome/nautilus and workbench (flawed but not too unreasonable) then it wasnt long ago on the Amiga when just copying files from one place to another froze workbench up entirely until it finished.

OK, I've got it -- thanks for the explanation. So the real issue here is that certain applications are single-threaded and block on long operations. I used to see this with *old* versions of Firefox -- a single tab would block and the entire app became unresponsive for a minute or more. It wouldn't even repaint itself if obscured by other windows.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@simplex

Quote:

Someone else mentioned Firefox bringing the computer to a standstill, or killing multitasking, or something like that. (I couldn't find the original; I was looking for it when I saw outrun's post.)

It was me! Or was it?

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42522&forum=2&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#810620

It probably is because I don't have enough memory. But I am using an old laptop, ten years old, same like specs as an X1000. It's running Mint 64. Maxxed out to 4GB RAM. Set aside 4GB for swap. Free 5GB on main system. FireFox, while me busy scrolling, or it sitting there, will suddenly thrash the HDD. If I'm lucky I can close the window. If I miss the mark I can kill the X server. If I that is gone I can get to a console and log in. Then use the kill command on it. Last resort is reset combo. Most of the time it happens so fast or even happens while the display blanked when machine was idle that is just won't come back to a desktop even. I just hold the power button down. I have to do it a lot. I don't even try and shut it down in that case. To far gone. Shocking.

I recall trying to download a file from the Mega site three days in a row. Now that site is annoying because it doesn't do HTTP downloading and uses custom code to download it. So it if fails you can't continue. That's more old fashioned than a normal download or a torrent. I left it be and come back to find it had killed the system and was thrashing the HDD. I tested Chrome on the same thing. Worked fine. Okay it only had one tab open but it got the job done.

Remember when computers had out of memory errors? I think they should bring that back. No computer ever, not now, or in the near future, has had unlimited resources. So I think it's a pretty stupid idea to code an OS or program to assume it can always get what it wants, and when it cannot go into an endless loop thrashing the HDD. Don't see anything smart about it.

Last edited by Hypex on 13-Apr-2018 at 03:40 PM.

@outrun1978

Quote:

As for the Linux desktop am using on Debian 9 PPC on the X5000, Gnome isnt supported see below

Thanks for your reference. But, as stated in that thread, it should only apply to the AmigaOne XE with a Radeon R200 chipset. In the 9200 series.

There is a blacklist and IIRC, R300 and up is supported. As long as it has hardware acceleration. Well the R200 does but they didn't like it as much for some reason.

In any case, since you are using an X5000, you shouldn't be stuck to any of these limitations. You can surely use a modern graphics card and would have so I thought. So there should be no problem using Gnome and standard setup on an X5000.

I've never used an X5000 for Linux or at all so there maybe other issues I'm not aware of.

@Hypex


I am aware the thread was referring to AmigaOne XE installation but there appears to be an issue with the X5000 specific images posted on the Hyperion forums and certain desktops so it was good to have Julian (Spectre660) clear up that particular issue I had with the desktop installation for me. Am amazed how much work both he and Christian do on the PPC Linux side of things, the current Amigaone Linux distributions would be a lot poorer without their and others hard work. Christian seems to knock out kernels for fun the rate he churns these and subsequent updates out.

As for other issues on the X5000 under Linux, I too find Firefox buggy and crashes video playback isn't what i would like (x11 output via mplayer or Gxine) and much prefer running it on AmigaOS using Mplayer and Emotion. I know the video playback problems are down to my current installed card which doesn't support hardware acceleration just yet so a downgrade to a 6570 type card will sort that out in linux, it will sort out being able to install MorphOS too.

As mentioned before in this thread i spend a good 95% of my time on AmigaOS at the moment and am I going to want to give up any Warp3D/Warp3D Nova goodies at the moment with my existing card? .... probably not.. so both MorphOS and Linux can wait until they fully support it.

Getting back on topic another thing that is blocking the Amiga taking off which no one has mentioned thus far is the continued delay in the release of the A1222. The number of people that still gripe about the X5000 being expensive (which is of course subjective) but yet they see the A1222 as a far more attractive proposition despite the lower specs...

Yes it won't be an explosion moment in terms of the general public, but it when it finally appears it will be an explosion in terms of the small installed userbase that is the Amiga NG scene as I can easily see those 1,000 boards being snapped up quite quickly adding to the existing userbase.


The reality is a lot of us long term Amiga users or people coming back are no longer the pocket money kids that we were when we had our A500/600/1200 machines back in the 90's where we couldn't afford to upgrade, we now have money to spend on our hobbies so why not spend it on the Amiga or else what else are we doing here??

More users= more money= more development and the circle continues. Its not really rocket science but I think developers really do need to put ego aside and start chasing the money here and have a longer term vision. Its in the interest of all of us. Its also up to us to be positive advocates for the platform.....

Just a thought

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

Split.

Split developer resources is the biggest reason.
(tightly tied to lack of leadership)

Users are not that severely split, a lot of users have fun with all flavors.

With more focused development we would have more mature and more modern systems.

(IMO: taking off is to me something like >10 000 active users.)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@ilbarbax

Quote:

so it is evident that the root cause is not just one of them but all of them!! This is definitely the worst scenario.

As I said, the root cause that blocks the Amiga to take off is exactly the same which is blocking Julius Caesar (Rome's conquerer) to do the same...

I just cannot understand how so many people can keep deluding or foolishing themselves in the hope of a resurrection, when there isn't - anymore - any of the minimum bare requirements for this to happen.

The first one being a concrete vision: ask what's an Amiga today (there's another topic on the subject in the neighborhood) and you'll get dozens of different answers. Some may argue fragmentation is an issue, but in general the real 'issues' are the causes of a problem, not the consequences of the problem itself. Different OSes and unofficial expansions exist BECAUSE the Amiga platform ended into a coma after Commodore's demise. Different meanings about an 'ideal' Amiga exist because there isn't a 'real', 'physical' 'concrete' Amiga platform today. If you even mention AmigaOnes, you'll end up in flames.

So let's assume there is now an 'Amiga' universe made of different products & solutions like AROS PCs, AmigaOS powered AmigaOnes, MorphOS powered Mac and Vampire-enhanced classic 68K computers, bring them together and introduce them to the real world, to IT people, to computer enthusiasts, what are you going to answer to them, once they will ask "What should we do with all this crap, that our current devices aren't doing better?". And you'll have very hard time ansering.

There are PCs, consoles, Raspberry PIs, notebooks, smartphones, tablets, servers, Macs, routers, workstations... everyone of them coming with powerful processors and established operating systems, letting you use thousands of different applications. There is an already available set of solutions for EVERY need, from gaming to work, from communication to personal care, and there isn't any computing task where our devices behave better than the others. Surely you could argue that your Amiga is quicker in doing this or that: I myself boot up Icaros Desktop on a virtual machine every time I have to convert a PDF into several PNG images, just because it's a function I bundled with our DOpus5 configuration, however anyone can tell me I just took this road because I feel it more comfortable than others. Maybe any Windows or Linux user would prefer to google for a tool doing the same thing. So why should anyone else boot a whole operating system just to do that?

We are so fond of Amigas just because 1) they represented a important effort of time in our youth we don't want to feel wasted; and 2) we're so accustomed and fond of our way-of-computing that we simply refuse to 'change'. Someone of us still insists our low-footprint, unprotected, SMP-unaware API is better than the others but, damn hell, that's absolutely not true and does not fit with real world problems anymore!

There's something pathetic in every choice we make. Insisting on desktop PPC machines, just to start, when anyone else ditched them. There is an 'official' OS vendor who's unable even to satisfy the basic needs of 2 hardware vendors (ACube and A-Eon), so pricey and underpowered machines come out from time to time, pretending to be the new Amigas, and once they're out it will take months, or years, before AmigaOS will support them completely (if it happens at all). And the backup plan what is? Using Linux. PPC Linux: the least updated, least developed, worst supported one. And while we (you?) PPC people struggle to copy a file to a pendrive (that's the sickest, most pathetical thing I ever read here), juste because Linux is *definitely not* an OS suited for people unaware of the difference between a kernel and a bootloader, the happy users of any other different platform are laughing at our back. With some motivation.

I have the feeling that there is now a plan, a scientific plan, brought up by the remaining companies and some very vocal people here: trying to do everything in their power to keep this community as little as possible, as faithful as possible, like a religious club. Flames and attacks against AROS, against Vampire accelerators, even against norma people enjoying their 68K machines for retrocomputing fun, are inicative. It's dead, Jim, but you must pretend it isn't.

This platform will never take off again, just because it's dead and it's interest for the 'remaining ones' that it won't happen ever. You just must not notice that.

I voted Amiga community divisions.

If everyone had worked together instead of fighting, duplicating effort, screwing each other over for a dollar and filing lawsuits, all the other options in the poll could have eventually been overcome.

We've got 3-5 barely compatible versions of everything in the OS between OS3.1, OS4, MorphOS, AROS, UAE and Amithlon.

How many man hours of work just on simple command line tools? The 68k JIT? Reverse engineering how everything was done originally?

It extends to every part of the OS, all applications and every bounty.

I don't see it being as popular as Android, Windows, Linux or Mac, but the platform would have been far healthier than it is today.

..

Last edited by wawa on 13-Apr-2018 at 09:13 PM.

@paolone

Quote:

There is an 'official' OS vendor who's unable even to satisfy the basic needs of 2 hardware vendors (ACube and A-Eon), so pricey and underpowered machines come out from time to time, pretending to be the new Amigas, and once they're out it will take months, or years, before AmigaOS will support them completely (if it happens at all). And the backup plan what is? Using Linux. PPC Linux: the least updated, least developed, worst supported one.

Is there any reason the backup plan couldn't be MorphOS? If there is, I expect that it's legal and not technical.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner