@MagicSN

I'm going to take a different position here. There are Amigas, compatibles, work-alikes and inspired bys.

Amigas are the integrated systems designed and built by Commodore around the 68K, custom hardware and run Amiga OS and applications (irrespective of whether or not they can run any other operating system, e.g. Unix, etc). This also includes any such hardware with aftermarket accelerators and expansions.

Compatibles are any system that still runs AmigaOS and applications (with varying degrees of binary compatibility) but are not hardware designed and built by commodore. This is naturally a broad spectrum and includes things like the Draco, Vampire standalone, Amithlon, UAE and pretty much every OS4 machine, since OS4 *is* AmigaOS, no matter how much that fact may trigger some people.

Work-alikes are any system that does not run AmigaOS but retains compatibility with application software. This is also a spectrum, with binary compatibility at one end and source level compatibility only at the other. Examples include MorphOS on Mac PPC at the binary compatible end and AROS on generic x64 hardware at the source compatibility end only.

Inspired bys are things which are inspired by Amiga / Amiga OS to varying degrees but are otherwise unrelated. An example might be BeOS (depending on your opinions).

The only realy grey area between Amigas and Compatibles are when you *replace* parts of the Amiga with compatible hardware, e.g. replacing (as opposed to just augmenting) one of the custom chips with an FPGA implementation. The resulting hybrid is something distinct. Commodore intended for the CPU and memory to be upgraded and added buses to allow expansion cards to add new and improved capabilities to the system, so no matter how accelerated and RTG'd your Amiga is, it's still the same machine, just augmented. As soon as you begin to replace anything they didn't design for, then you have... well... something less well defined.

Last edited by Karlos on 07-Dec-2023 at 10:18 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 07-Dec-2023 at 09:29 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 07-Dec-2023 at 09:27 AM.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@MagicSN

Quote:

That is what we call a "Classic Amiga". Not all Amigas are Classic Amigas.

No, that is not what we call amigas. To most of us they were amigas when we bought them and they still remain amigas to this day.
We have no problem if you want to call your ppc boxes amigas too but please stop trying to steal our name or try to imply that our amigas are no longer real amigas and thus need a new name, to distinguis them from your franken ppc boxens.

This is kind of the attitude that makes many of the amiga owners pissed off by team os4. You keep dismissing our hobby and keep implying that our amigas are no longer real amigas.

Please stop that bullshit. My amiga is an amiga and not some "classic amiga".

@V8

It is obvious there are different definitions of "what is an Amiga". In your defintion your Amiga is an Amiga. Other may think it is a "classic amiga", or even a potato. If world CO2 emissions were reduced by 1 ton every time someone on AW argues about "what is an Amiga", global climate change would have been manageable before the end of this decade.

@V8

To stop bullshit I would have to start it.

And neither do I have an "attitude". You have that "attitude".

Stop you your bullshit. And do not try to redefine what an Amiga is.

And playing pissed off does not change the facts. *I* should be the one being pissed off about YOUR post, not the other way round.

This is not meant in any way to offend anyone. Just stating the facts.

@Karlos

>I'm going to take a different position here. There are Amigas, compatibles, work-alikes and inspired >bys.

So far I agree. And of course systems like the x1000 belong to the group of Amigas.

Do not try to redefine what an Amiga is.

I always assumed your positions (occasionally read on forums) were meant as casual insults. How should I know you actually meant that serious ? Nobody would know that...

Last edited by MagicSN on 07-Dec-2023 at 02:30 PM.

@MagicSN

Quote:

And of course systems like the x1000 belong to the group of Amigas

As per my previous post, I beg to differ. The x1000 falls squarely into the category of "compatibles". It was not designed and built by commodore, contains no original custom hardware. It's not an Amiga, but it does run AmigaOS and has binary compatibility with a corpus of OS friendly software. Consequently, it's a compatible. I don't have an axe to grind here but what the Amiga is factually is not the same as what it is emotionally or sentimentally. The latter has no good definition, it's just whatever floats your boat. I have no issues with that.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

I find it unclear to define what an Amiga is since there are likely many variations and opinions. I remember when they were calling smart phones Amiga's back in the day even.

For me, 68k stuff released is Amiga, even though my 3000's are so Frankensteined I'm sure a good argument could be made they aren't Amiga's anymore.

Since for me the hobby aspect of Amiga has diminished, and I'm looking to capabilities, features, and ease of use, with 68k JIT I'm happy with what I have and what it runs on, for the price I paid for it.

Kinda like when I buy a car, I look for features and what is has for the price. You can buy a GM brand that the car was actually built by someone else but still has a Chevy logo on it.

So the official branding of a brand that went dead in the 90's, doesn't matter to me. In high school when I was promoting the Amiga and debating against the PC, that is where the battle was...

Hyperion and the way they handled the brand has taken any value out it and made it almost worthless anyways.

Last edited by Matt3k on 07-Dec-2023 at 05:26 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 07-Dec-2023 at 04:49 PM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I really don't see the problem: just STOP using the JIT when the emulated 68k machine has disabled the cache. So, switching back to full emulation (interpretative mode). OR clear the JIT buffers if the cache is enabled and the 68k code has cleared it (because it has made some changes on the existing code). Simple, no?

I think ideally its good idea to use the MMU to notify the JIT compiler to flush a code, but problem with doing that is that HUNK format contains data and code intermixed. (It’s a shame AmigaOS3.2 does not support ELF),I guess CacheClearU, CacheClearE function can theoretically flush JIT cache, but I guess Petunia does not do that.

Automatically switching between JIT and Interpreted, be tricky because can’t know if code was modifying itself. Before you actually run it, in that case I think it need to start interpreted and run code few times, before it understands that part is not modified and safe to JIT.

Dc.b and ds.b etch are not machine code, its compiler / preprocessor switch to tell compiler here comes some bytes. So you can’t know if there is any data any place, and you don’t know the length of data, this IRA and other dis-compilers often have problem decompile code, as what is code, is determined by the branches and code paths. Not by its location.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Dec-2023 at 05:09 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@Karlos

one and only thing from original Amiga hardware still important is 32 bit big endian cpu.

68k is unimportant. amiga software is made mostly in c/c++.
68k may be changed to any cpu that fully work in 32 bit big endian mode.
which means almost anything except x86, arn. risc-v.

chipset is unimportant.
chipset no support to made graphics in 256 or thousand colors mode.
256 or thousand colors mode on commodore amiga is made by cpu.
in 256 or thousand colors mode on commodore amiga chipset works
just as dumb framebuffer and may be changed to anything.

amiga x1000 is real true amiga better than these made by commodore after amiga 3000.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

68k is unimportant. amiga software is made mostly in c/c++.

That’s sadly not the case, 68K software is written in many languages,
Assembler, C/++, Amiga-E, Pascal, Blitz Basic II, Amos Basic.

if where to guess:
Assembler 50%, C/C++ 30%, Blitz Basic II 11%, AmosPro 7%, Amiga-E 2%

Even if project is written in C/C++ there is often assembler parts inlined.

(Anything that did not originate from the Amiga, but from Linux will be 99% likely be C/C++ code.)

Quote:

chipset is unimportant.

Not really, all 680x0 mod players use the chipset. (system frendly or not).
Old paint prograns use the blitter.

(Of course some software use external mod players.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Dec-2023 at 06:30 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Dec-2023 at 06:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Dec-2023 at 06:23 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Dec-2023 at 06:20 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Karlos one and only thing from original Amiga hardware still important is 32 bit big endian cpu. 68k is unimportant. amiga software is made mostly in c/c++. 68k may be changed to any cpu that fully work in 32 bit big endian mode. which means almost anything except x86, arn. risc-v. chipset is unimportant. chipset no support to made graphics in 256 or thousand colors mode. 256 or thousand colors mode on commodore amiga is made by cpu. in 256 or thousand colors mode on commodore amiga chipset works just as dumb framebuffer and may be changed to anything. amiga x1000 is real true amiga better than these made by commodore after amiga 3000.

Deja vu? lol

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@ppcamiga1

The difference between you and me is that I'm an actual developer and I've worked on 68K, PPC, x86, x64, ARM. I've even done some MIPS and 88K in the past. So you'll forgive me when I call out your post for the steaming pile of horsesh*t that it is and dismiss your opinion entirely out of hand because you are stark raving mad.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Matt3k

Quote:

find it unclear to define what an Amiga is since there are likely many variations and opinions

Fortunately for you then, I've done the hard work above. It's really very simple. What everyone keeps calling "classic Amiga" machines are Amigas and everything else is either a compatible or work-alike. This is an objective classification based on what is physically quantifiable/verifiable, rather than the infinitely subjective classification based on how any given system makes us feel when we use it.

You can call a PPC Mac running MorphOS an Amiga, but it's not. It's a workalike with binary application compatibility. You can call an AmigaOne running OS4 an Amiga, but it's not, it's a compatible ( the only differentiation here from MorphOS is that it's running Amiga OS, the lineage of which is verifiable for anyone with access to the version control history, but the machine itself is definitely not an Amiga).

I don't care what anyone uses as long as it does what they want and they are happy with it, but facts are facts.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

It's really very simple. What everyone keeps calling "classic Amiga" machines are Amigas and everything else is either a compatible or work-alike. This is an objective classification based on what is physically quantifiable/verifiable, rather than the infinitely subjective classification based on how any given system makes us feel when we use it.

An Amiga is any computer that identifies as an Amiga you disgusting bigot!

I suppose you hate gays and Jews too eh?

@Bosanac

That's, erm, quite a leap.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

You would say that you transphobic antisemitic homophobe.

Amiga has a rainbow checkmark for a reason, don't try to rewrite what an Amiga is. Everyone knows it's been whatever identifies as an Amiga since the beginning!

@Bosanac

I think you are on the wrong platform. Maybe you are thinking of Atari?

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Bosanac

FFS !

How do you program a Computer if you are NonBinary ?

Wol.

Last edited by Wol on 07-Dec-2023 at 09:30 PM.

_________________
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.~Albert Einstein

Bosanac Quote:

Amiga has a rainbow checkmark for a reason, don't try to rewrite what an Amiga is. Everyone knows it's been whatever identifies as an Amiga since the beginning!

The rainbow was a very special symbol that God would not punish corrupt people with a worldwide flood before historical revisionism by corrupt people that wanted to erase the original symbolism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism

Wol Quote:

How do you program a Computer if you are NonBinary ?

Lol Wol.

@karlos

You thought over your descriptions well enough for me.

I'm ok with it.

@MagicSN
Quote:

@cdimaura >Seriously? A NDA for testing a port of a videogame which was released DECADES ago for other >platforms? Don't play at being shocked. People want to buy these games.

Subject was the NDA, NOT people that want to buy those games.
Quote:

That YOU don't want to buy it does not mean others do not want.

Have I ever stated this? I don't think so.

Anyway, I can tell you that I'm not interested: it's not the genre that I like. And I already have around 4 thousand games on my library (most bought. Some others coming from giveaways), so I'm not interested on buying games which I don't like.
Quote:

And I am not taking a risk here.

np.
Quote:

>As I've already stated several times, there were NO PowerPC Amigas. By definition! There is one here right now. It has a PowerPC, it runs AmigaOS natively. It is an Amiga. BY DEFINITION.

Specify: that's YOUR definition! Here's THE definition directly coming from Commodore:
http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0001.html
The Amiga Technical Reference Series is the official guide to programming Amiga computers. This revised edition of the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual provides detailed information about the Amiga's graphics and audio hardware, and how the Amiga talks to the outside world through peripheral devices. This edition has been updated for version 2.0 of the Amiga operating system and covers the newest Amiga computer systems including the A3000.

http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0002.html
The Amiga family of computers consists of several models, each of which has been designed on the same premise -- to provide the user with a low-cost computer that features high-cost performance. The Amiga does this through the use of custom silicon hardware that yields advanced graphics and sound features.

There are four basic models that make up the Amiga computer family: the A500, A1000, A2000, and A3000. Though the models differ in price and features, they have a common hardware nucleus that makes them software compatible with one another. This chapter describes the Amiga's hardware components and gives a brief overview of its graphics and sound features.

http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0003.html
These are the hardware components of the Amiga:

* Motorola MC68000 16/32-bit main processor. The Amiga also supports the 68010, 68020, and 68030 processors as an option. The A1000, A500 and A2000 contain the 68000, while the A3000 utilizes the 68030 processor.

* Custom graphics and audio chips with DMA capability. All Amiga models are equipped with three custom chips named Paula, Agnus, and Denise which provide for superior color graphics, digital audio, and high-performance interrupt and I/O handling. The custom chips can access up to 2MB of memory directly without using the 68000 CPU.

* From 256K to 2 MB of RAM expandable to a total of 8 MB (over a gigabyte on the Amiga 3000).

* 512K of system ROM containing a real time, multitasking operating system with sound, graphics, and animation support routines. (V1.3 and earlier versions of the OS used 256K of system ROM.)

http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0004.html
The Motorola MC68000 microprocessor is the CPU used in the A1000, the A500, and the A2000. The 68000 is a 16/32-bit microprocessor; internal registers are 32 bits wide, while the data bus and ALU are 16 bits. The 68000's system clock speed is 7.15909 MHz on NTSC systems (USA) or 7.09379 MHz on PAL systems (Europe). These speeds can vary when using an external system clock, such as from a genlock board.

The 68000 has an address space of 16 megabytes. In the Amiga, the 68000 can address up to 9 megabytes of random access memory (RAM).

In the A3000, the Motorola MC68030 microprocessor is the CPU. This is a full 32-bit microprocessor with a system clock speed of 16 or 25 megahertz. The 68030 has an address space of 4 gigabytes. In the A3000, over a gigabyte of RAM can be addressed.

In addition to the 680x0, all Amiga models contain special purpose hardware known as the custom chips that greatly enhance system performance. The term custom chips refers to the three integrated circuits which were designed specifically for the Amiga computer. These three custom chips, named Paula, Agnus, and Denise, each contain the logic to handle a specific set of tasks such as video, audio, or I/O.

Because the custom chips have DMA capability, they can access memory without using the 680x0 CPU - this frees the CPU for other types of operations. The division of labor between the custom chips and the 680x0 gives the Amiga its power; on most other systems the CPU has to do everything.

The memory shared between the Amiga's CPU and the custom chips is called Chip memory. The more Chip memory the Amiga has, the more graphics, audio, and I/O data it can operate on without the CPU being involved. All Amigas can access at least 512K of Chip memory.

The latest version of the custom chips, known as the Enhanced Chip Set or ECS, can handle up to 2 MB of memory and has other advanced features. For more details about the Enhanced Chip Set, refer to Appendix C.

Although there are different versions of the Amiga's custom chips, all versions have some common features. Among other functions, the custom chips provide the following:

I've reported only the relevant parts (but I suggest to read at least all the first chapter, to have a better understanding of what an Amiga is and what are its unequivocal foundations) and I've highlighted nothing because it should be already clear-enough for the average Joe with an average IQ.

Now it's YOUR turn: you've to share the source of the above your statement. Something like: "it's known", "it's obvious", "anyone knows it", "my cousin told me", etc. are not allowed.
Quote:

>As it can be clearly read from Commodore's official documentation, an Amiga is made of a >chipset like OCS, ECS (and AGA, which is backward-compatible with them) AND a CPU from the >Motorola 68000 family. Full dot! That is what we call a "Classic Amiga". Not all Amigas are Classic Amigas.

Hey, are you talking about Macs or Amigas?

Apple did this operation because it started selling a completely new set of machines reusing the same name, so it added "Classic" to its old line of computers and used The Name for the new ones.
This can be easily verified on its site. For example: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP198
So, it's OFFICIAL.

However there's NOTHING like that which Commodore did. And not even its successors. Even because there were NO (new) "Amiga" computers sold after that.

So, Amiga remains... Amiga.
Quote:

Stop trolling please.

Troll is someone which spread lies. Which is certainly NOT my case, since I've reported OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION which is supporting my statements.

Now let's examine your: you brought... NO official documentation which supported your statements.

Hence, what you stated are lies. Which means that YOU are the troll here.
Quote:

We waste each other's time.

Then why don't you simple stop reporting the same lies? They don't became true only because you repeat them several times (and you know what I mean which this, genau?).


@Karlos
Quote:

@MagicSN I'm going to take a different position here. There are Amigas, compatibles, work-alikes and inspired bys. Amigas are the integrated systems designed and built by Commodore around the 68K, custom hardware and run Amiga OS and applications (irrespective of whether or not they can run any other operating system, e.g. Unix, etc). This also includes any such hardware with aftermarket accelerators and expansions. Compatibles are any system that still runs AmigaOS and applications (with varying degrees of binary compatibility) but are not hardware designed and built by commodore. This is naturally a broad spectrum and includes things like the Draco, Vampire standalone, Amithlon, UAE and pretty much every OS4 machine, since OS4 *is* AmigaOS, no matter how much that fact may trigger some people. Work-alikes are any system that does not run AmigaOS but retains compatibility with application software. This is also a spectrum, with binary compatibility at one end and source level compatibility only at the other. Examples include MorphOS on Mac PPC at the binary compatible end and AROS on generic x64 hardware at the source compatibility end only. Inspired bys are things which are inspired by Amiga / Amiga OS to varying degrees but are otherwise unrelated. An example might be BeOS (depending on your opinions). The only realy grey area between Amigas and Compatibles are when you *replace* parts of the Amiga with compatible hardware, e.g. replacing (as opposed to just augmenting) one of the custom chips with an FPGA implementation. The resulting hybrid is something distinct. Commodore intended for the CPU and memory to be upgraded and added buses to allow expansion cards to add new and improved capabilities to the system, so no matter how accelerated and RTG'd your Amiga is, it's still the same machine, just augmented. As soon as you begin to replace anything they didn't design for, then you have... well... something less well defined.

I appreciate the spirit of your proposal and I can accept it if there are some changes to the definitions and more granular definitions.

Amiga: I agree with your, because it matches Commodore's documentation.
Amiga-like: any hardware which reproduces at least the Amiga hardware (new features are not a problem. We already had the AGA which wasn't part of the Amiga Hardware Manual, but its features match the specs).
Amiga o.s.-compatibles: systems that run Amiga o.s. software.
AmigaOS4-compatibles: systems that run AmigaOS4 software.
Amiga o.s. source-compatible: systems that allow to recompile Amiga o.s. applications and run natively on the new platform (which is Amiga o.s. binary-incompatible, of course).
Amiga o.s.-like: systems that don't allow to recompile Amiga o.s. applications, but that implement a vast majority of its APIs.
Inspired: I agree with you.


@pavlor
Quote:

@V8 It is obvious there are different definitions of "what is an Amiga". In your defintion your Amiga is an Amiga. Other may think it is a "classic amiga", or even a potato. If world CO2 emissions were reduced by 1 ton every time someone on AW argues about "what is an Amiga", global climate change would have been manageable before the end of this decade.

I wonder how an historian doesn't take into account the facts and the history which is reporting them.

History does NOT rely on the definitions of anyone: if there are FACTs which allow to determine precise definitions, then we have the definitions and we should use them.

In this case, we HAVE official definitions. And there's NOTHING else that rebuts them.


@MagicSN
Quote:

@V8 To stop bullshit I would have to start it. And neither do I have an "attitude". You have that "attitude". Stop you your bullshit. And do not try to redefine what an Amiga is.

That's exactly what YOU are trying to do despite the OFFICIAL documentation shows that you're wrong!
Quote:

@Karlos >I'm going to take a different position here. There are Amigas, compatibles, work-alikes and inspired >bys. So far I agree. And of course systems like the x1000 belong to the group of Amigas.

It is NOT: by the OFFICIAL definition.
Quote:

Do not try to redefine what an Amiga is.

Again, that's what YOU're trying to do!