So I have sneaked in MorphZone a couple of times to see what's happening
over there..

Sometimes some their diehards write things like "MOS is way more advanced
than OS4".. This in context to OS4Emu being possible to do for MOS but very
much harder to do a MOSEmu for OS4..
Why? What is more advanced???
They can't print (almost at all)! Btw one of the biggest reasons for Titan not to
make an OS4 version of Papyrus (note: OS4 can print!!!).. And yet they make a MOS
version?!?! Politics? They don't have a TCP/IP stack! The current Ambient lacks
some important stuff I have gathered.
The specs promise a lot of things, but all are not in the current 1.4.2 version.
Alot was to be fixed in the next release, which maybe never will be released..

So my question is..
What's so much more advanced inside their kernel that's so hard to emulate
for OS4? Is it maybe MUI?

Btw this is no flame!

/Harry

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@Samwel

The AmigaOS 3 version of Papyrus Office runs under AOS 4 under emulation. That's why they aren't going to soak in the development expense to port it to AOS 4.

MOS is mostly source code compatible to AOS 3 but AOS 4 has some advanced features in order to implement memory protection. That's what makes porting to AOS 4 somewhat more difficult. MOS 1.5 was supposed to get memory protection but it wouldn't be completely available to the software running under the ABox, only QBox. Porting from AOS 3/MOS 1.4.x to QBox would probably be comparable to the difficulty of porting from AOS 3 to AOS 4.

@Samwel

From what I can gather MorphOS is in some ways more mature than OS4 (as you'd expect given its longer development time) but rather less ambitious. There doesn't seem to be any equivalent of OS4's virtualised memory system, for example.

The only bit of MOS that's good enough that I'd like to see it implemented in OS4 is the improved MUI libraries. Reaction isn't my cup of tea at all.

_________________
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@Samurai_Crow

The AmigaOS 3 version of Papyrus Office runs under AOS 4 under emulation. That's why they aren't going to soak in the development expense to port it to AOS 4.


I wrote to Titan some time ago.. About the time of the first prerelease.
They told me the reasons were.. 1. OS4 can't print 2. No developer support 3. Expensive to do a version for a OS they didn't believe in.. They thought MOS had a
brighter future.. I think they wanted two A1's with OS4 to do a OS4 version.
Anyway they needed two A1's and approximately two months developer time, they
said.
Hope they have changed now.. As this is the fastest way for OS4 to get a Office set.


@DrBombcrater

From what I can gather MorphOS is in some ways more mature than OS4 (as you'd expect given its longer development time) but rather less ambitious. There doesn't seem to be any equivalent of OS4's virtualised memory system, for example.

The only bit of MOS that's good enough that I'd like to see it implemented in OS4 is the improved MUI libraries. Reaction isn't my cup of tea at all.


But also.. OS4 developer speed is like lightspeed compared to MOS!
I think that the current release has more or less caught up with MOS.
MOS 1.4 was released August 2003.. Soon 1.5 years ago.
What I have read is that better MUI, Altivec, 3D drivers, printing & much better
Ambient would be the key features of 1.5.
Of which Ambient is 99% certainty nomore part of MOS.. How can it be after all
that has happened and is happening?
Now they have no "Workbench". That easily 3-4 months of development & beta
testing.. For a basic one even. Much less advanced than the "to be" Ambient for
MOS 1.5.
Also Gerber is the current maintainer of AmiTCP sources. So that was also going
to be converted to MOS by him I think.. Now possibly down the drain.

I hope we can all stop using MUI and all other GUIs. Because using more than
one GUI is just confusing. Help Hyperion to better Reaction instead of doing your
own GUIs.
ie. we need a GUI editor!!! Also some other stuff I have gathered (classes).


/Harry

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@Samurai_Crow

Although i've heard that somewhere else sometime ago, i've just noticed your comment about difficulty to port OS3.x stuff to OS4.
Taking into account that OS4 does have GCC native compilers and crosscompilers up to,and including 3.4.3, as well as VBCC,and seeing as well, though with so small time released as developer's pre-release CD, the amount of stuff that is being ported/already done on OS4depot,and also having myself started to code not much time ago, i can tell you that porting stuff, from 3.x is as much difficult as porting it to MOS, if not easier.
As long as you won't be using any of the Newer features of the Operating System, you can compile easily your 3.x code,provided it is GCC compliant, with a single __USE_INLINE with the compiler.
Hope it clears some things i've seen somewhat distortioned/misunderstood.Also hoping that my english skills don't screw it more than it was before.

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@Samwel
I seriously doubt anyone claiming "more advanced" in either direction knows what they are talking about. You have AmigaOS 4.0 experts and MorphOS experts but I haven't seen anyone claim to be both.

AmigaOS and MorphOS have parted ways. As time goes on, compatibility will become harder and harder to maintain. Things like os4emu are kinda cool but will fade off in the distance as each OS moves ahead.

Time to move on. So long and thanks for all the fish.

_________________
ExecSG Team Lead

@Samwel

Quote:

So I have sneaked in MorphZone a couple of times to see what's happening over there..

No need to sneak.. we open anyone with open arms


As for your observations, it all comes to to this: free choice to go either way. Let's just leave it at that.

Last edited by hooligan on 07-Dec-2004 at 04:28 AM.

Well first off we CAN print in MorphOS just fine I do it all the time. Its just very picky about the printer you use. MorphOS is basicly an API clone of AmigaOS 3.0 with all the major libs and devs ported to native PPC. OS4 is more of a rewrite with a still basic emulator and no public release of the JIT engine. MOS has an advanced JIT which lets it run just about all the system friendly AOS apps and game out and in much of the cases with faster then native 68k speeds. I have actually been able to run AOS 1.X things on it just fine like the clock and a few of the window demos. You can even replace Ambient and run workbench with some work. Its still very much alive and nothing has been killed off. Much of what is happening is hype and you cant trust it all, some is true though. Yes we dont have a native TCP/IP yet but the AOS ones all work very well. I use MiamiDX with 100% trouble free connections. Sure its not native, but its fast and compatable. We have 3D drivers for voodoo and unreleased ATI ones as well. We have a PPC native browser and LOTS more native applications.

@Acill

Quote:

I use MiamiDX with 100% trouble free connections. Sure its not native, but its fast and compatable

Actually it's slow as hell, I think I have never even gotten close to 2mb/s.. more like 1.5mb/s .. and THAT is sad. But other than that yes, it works just fine.

@Samwel

You won't be able to directly compare MorphOS with OS4. They use different ways to do the same thing. IMHO, OS4's High Level stuff are more mature that MorphOS' while MorphOS' interiors are more mature that OS4's. Both OSes have their own extensions to the AmigaOS API (OS4 also added interfaces) and each has it's merits. BTW, printing does work on MorphOS, the problem is that many drivers are broken and the porting of Turboprint was done by an external company or something.
Now, about TCP/IP, yes, that's bad. It's bad because it was supposed to be part of 1.4. Apart from that, about Ambient, as far as I know, the 1.4 release and all it's components, including Ambient, are secured. Stuff Zapek wrote after the 1.4 release are lost but keep in mind that the situation is not settled YET. It might get fixed or it might get totally broken. The rest of the developers are still working on the OS.

_________________

IMO: they are not that different.

MOStoday = Abox = AOS API + extensions

AOS4today = AOS3API + new stuff

AOS4 uses legacy code and binaries to do things that need (or needed) to be re-invented in MOS.

The other has something the other does not have.


At the time when there is AOS5, there is MOS with Qbox. etc... (ok this was supposed to have smiley @ the end of line, so here: )

(in more details: both are just dreams currently, no one is develping directly AOS5 or the Qbox version of MOS, current developments might lead to AOS5 or MOS with qbox in the long term. Both are unrealistic to happen. Better not expect, not wait. Better live in the present time. )

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Dec-2004 at 12:51 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Quote:

At the time when there is AOS5, there is MOS with Qbox. etc...

Maybe, but I definately wouldn't hold my breath for that

@rayt

Don't be pessimistic.. AOS5 will come.. at some point

What transfering speeds can you get with Roadshow on OS4?

@hooligan

Probably around the same time MOS1.5 comes out.

@fryguy

I'm getting 4-5MB/s using a 68k FTP program. Don't know if a PPC native one would boost that some more...

@Samwel

Quote:

No developer support

Yeah, I heard Titan complain that they asked us for developer support and never got an answer. For the record, they never asked...

_________________
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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@AmiDog

Sounds good.. a bit better than what i get with my A1200/030 ;)

Last edited by fryguy on 07-Dec-2004 at 10:23 AM.

@Samwel

Quote:

Sometimes some their diehards write things like "MOS is way more advanced than OS4".

Depends on the point of view, some things are more advanced in AmigaOS4 and other stuff currently still on MorphOS. But IMO it's not a good idea to compare a work-in-progress project with an end-user product.

The current developer pre-release version of AmigaOS4 already is way ahead of anything offered by early MorphOS 1.x releases. However some parts are still missing. And of course the paint and polish usually comes last. So don't judge the book by its cover just yet.

For instance IMO a top model BMW with missing parts (tires, steering wheel, casing. etc) shouldn't be compared to a finished entry-level Volkswagen. IMO the finished BMW will outclass the Volkwagen in any way possible when it is completed.

Quote:

This in context to OS4Emu being possible to do for MOS but very much harder to do a MOSEmu for OS4.. Why? What is more advanced???

Their reasoning is flawed. Some examples:

1) Windows 95 ran on MS-DOS 7.0. MSDOS isn't more advanced than the Windows 95 API in any way. One is a very basic single-tasking CLI environment hosting a far more advanced multi-tasking GUI based environment.

2) WINE allows Unix-like operating systems to run x86 programs that utilise the Microsoft Windows API. These operating systems offer different features, but Linux isn't more advanced than WIndows in many areas.

Quote:

Btw one of the biggest reasons for Titan not to

There are mainly financial reasons why Titan hasn't committed to an AmigaOS4 port yet or so they tell me.

Quote:

What's so much more advanced inside their kernel that's so hard to emulate for OS4? Is it maybe MUI?

Actually nothing. The Abox just uses a re-implemented AmigaOS3.1 kernel at its core. The Quark microkernel just hosts this AmigaOS-like enviroment & AmigaOS-like kernel functionality. Instead of the Quark microkernel there's no technical reason why for example QNX or Linux couldn't have been a host for something like an Abox.

For instance WarpOS also has an PowerUP emulation library available for it, but such a fact doens't make WarpOS itself more powerful or advanced than PowerUP nor vice versa.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Dec-2004 at 10:32 AM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

MorphOS' interiors are more mature that OS4's.

Given the fact that you probably don't know too much about OS4's interiors: Care to elaborate where MOS is more mature than OS4 in it's interiors ? AFAIK, there's no possibility to find out wheter code is 68k or PPC in MOS. This is a no-brainer in OS4, so where is MOS more mature ?

Likewise, we already have a virtualized address space in OS4. I don't know if MOS has that, but we can (theoretically) use isoltaed address spaces in OS4 with little effort (I know, AmigaOS applications don't work with this, but that's a limitation of current applications, not the system).

So, where's MOS interiors more mature than OS4 ? Just because they have fancy names for their "boxes" ?

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment