OK, so that was the question Amon_re asked me.
I'm sure this won't attract more attention than the crappy website of AInc

Anyways, for those who don't know, this is the context:

DruidPoet poet said:

Quote:

Heck, even being a Christian is a gamble. You are betting on your faith being the right one so that you can win a favourable place in the afterlife.

To which I answered:

Quote:

[...] indeed the one who makes the most risky bet is who despises afterlife without having a crumb of proof about its non-existence.

Getting this answer before moving here:

Quote:

Going further off topic, as no-one can prove or disprove the existance of the afterlife, i offer this simple question: Why would there be an afterlife? Death is merely the body shutting down, the electrochemical activity in the body that ceases to be, and the simplest awnser to the question is, in my not so humble opinion, there is no reason whatsoever to assume there is an afterlife, not for us humans, or for any mammal, reptile, bird, insect or whatever. Same thing with hat's the meaning of life? Why should there be a reason?

So, here's my new answer (quoting again the last part).

Quote:

Going further off topic, as no-one can prove or disprove the existance of the afterlife,

It will be my pleasure to continue with the other questions you have; however, assuming what you just said is true, do you agree that the most risky bet is made by those who don't care about afterlife?

Quote:

i offer this simple question: Why would there be an afterlife?

Because otherwise also this life loses meaning: why would mankind struggle? Just to reproduce itself over and over again? To produce, at the same time and time after time, more and more suffering?
But this is just the tip of the iceberg (more below).
Instead, to the question: "Why would _not_ there be an afterlife?" there is no answer to be found (note that I'm saying that there would be no _reason_ why that should not be, not that there is no proof - which is obvious).

Quote:

Death is merely the body shutting down, the electrochemical activity in the body that ceases to be, and the simplest awnser to the question is, in my not so humble opinion, there is no reason whatsoever to assume there is an afterlife, not for us humans, or for any mammal, reptile, bird, insect or whatever.

You are saying that there is no other reality because _this_ reality has a certain end. There must be a piece missing
You can only "test" physical (as in "what science studies") reality, so any finding about it (which I don't intend to minimize at all, as I'm all for the progress of science and knowledge) doesn't have any relevance to "other" realities.
So, if someone says: there is a non-physical reality, i.e. something out of the scientific scope, you simply cannot use science (or anyway physical proofs) to answer.
Had it been possible, this issue would have been settled down by a long time

Quote:

Same thing with hat's the meaning of life? Why should there be a reason?

Great. Here's a big part of the iceberg. If you had not said it, I'd have led you here
Let's look at the whole iceberg, then.
Gimme an aswer to this: why existence (of everything, I mean)?


saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@amon_re

Quote:

Death is merely the body shutting down, the electrochemical activity in the body that ceases to be, and the simplest answer to the question is, in my not so humble opinion, there is no reason whatsoever to assume there is an afterlife.

Obviously you haven't watched The Matrix and not heard of Chuang Tzu. Death might not be just as fatal as you think ... if we are software agents or dreaming butterflies :)

"The great Taoist master Chuang Tzu once dreamt that he was a butterfly fluttering here and there. In the dream he had no awareness of his individuality as a person. He was only a butterfly. Suddenly, he awoke and found himself laying there, a person once again. But then he thought to himself, "Was I before a man who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am I now a butterfly who dreams about being a man?"

Last edited by dietmar on 19-Mar-2005 at 02:38 AM.

@saimo

I am with you and Billsey on this one.

There IS an afterlife.

The proof used will not be from the Bible, as non Christians don't believe the Bible anyway.

I'll use the opposite "side" evil. I believe no intelligent person will deny the existence of a "Spirit"
world which can be proved easily with "games" of cards, letters to spell words, glasses that move
and point, etc.. This is NOT to be played with and tested, at most ask a reliable friend about the
truth of these "games".

Once you have confirmed that these "games" are true, ask yourself this, who and what are these
Forces->"Spirits" that interact with physical objects in these "games". The answer is evil spirits,
from the Spirit world. The Bible states clearly that Christians are NOT to try and contact the spirit
world, therefore these spirits must be evil and NOT from God.

If they are evil then what they say must be suspect and can't be trusted. One must expect
half-truths and lies. They do not outright lie, as this would be to obvious.

When asked about the spirit world and afterlife, they are happy to admit to it and just about always
paint a rosy picture of how lovely it is. Different levels etc...

What they NEVER admit to is the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
The "game" ends or the guide becomes silent at this question.


Now to the answer, we as humans are made of Spirit, Soul and Body.
At the end of this life our flesh body dies, our Spirit and Soul continue to live, separated from
the old body.

Oops, let me back track a bit, why are we here on the earth in the first place?
Think of it as the Olympics, before you can compete in the main event you MUST qualify.
To qualify you MUST meet the standard laid down.

The standard in this case is to be found sinless in God's sight.
The ONLY way to qualify and meet the standard, is through the saving work of Jesus Christ on the
cross, no amount of good works will help. I'm sure Billsey can fill in all the gaps.. :)
The qualification period is your physical life now, once you die, NO second chance.

If you qualify, you WILL take part in the "main event" with a new spiritual body and in the presence of
God. (For more info read the Bible)

If you do NOT meet the standard, and die, your soul and spirit (the REAL YOU) will be FOREVER
separated from God. (For more info read the Bible)

Now to all who will attack Christians for the truth, think on this. (and realize WHY you are attacking)
We are NO better than anyone else, and most definitely NOT above or higher than anyone else.
In fact Paul the apostle called himself the chief of sinners.
But what we do have is the sure knowledge of an everlasting life in the presence of God through the
saving work of Jesus Christ his Son. A Christians only hope is that others will see the truth too.

Over to Billsey and others now.

Cheers,
Tim

@T_Power

Tim,

I think you did fine.

The one thing that I think really grates on those who do not believe the Bible is that by their own standards—should they be honest—they are unable to sufficiently explain reality, because in order to maintain their lack of belief they must deny the one piece that actually fits the gap in the puzzle. Even though they know this to be true, if they fail to deny it . . .

_________________
Life without the LORD is like a soap bubble without the soap. Without Him, you are nothing.

@saimo

Quote:

assuming what you just said is true, do you agree that the most risky bet is made by those who don't care about afterlife?

That depends on what the afterlife is. If it's the Christian concept then yes.

But, I think if the Hindu or Buddist systems apply and you don't believe in that system you are still reincarnated but don't get to nirvana on this trip... Thus, while not as rewarding it's not necessarily risky either as you just get another shot at the goal.

@T_Power
Quote:

I believe no intelligent person will deny the existence of a "Spirit" world which can be proved easily with "games" of cards, letters to spell words, glasses that move and point, etc.. ... Once you have confirmed that these "games" are true, ask yourself this, who and what are these Forces->"Spirits" that interact with physical objects in these "games". The answer is evil spirits, from the Spirit world.

There are other options...
* perhaps there is some sort of conscious or unconscious ESP going on causing the cards to move.
* perhaps an alien ship passes over head with a 'move the card' ray turned on and laughs at how simple we humans are thinking it to be some other force.
* perhaps there's physical principles at work which the game player doesn't understand.

EXAMPLE: Many people believe that Ouija Boards will let them contact the dead. However, few people know about ideomotor action. It's a well established from the 19th century, hasn't been disproven but is rarely known about. Seems even that evil Ouija Board does have an scientific explaination. We performed a small Ouija Board experiment in college. Blind folded 3 people who shared the planchette. A 4th person took notes. At first a few short words appeared. But, even those were questionable as sometimes the people stopped and the planchette wasn't over anything. As time progressed almost no words appeared and still the people would find blank space on the board. We tried this a few times, even in a graveyard, and at no time did anything signifcant come up...

Another illustration of how faulty the 'Evil Spirits' is, is that Harry Houdini confronted various Mediums none were found to be true and in the end frustrated Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Also he showed that frequently even these 'Mediums' may not understand what they were truly doing and it was simply science.

At this point your conclusion, 'Evil Spirits', is faulty you haven't adequately proven it's the only explaination nor the only rational explaination. You use this as the point to launch the rest of the argument you need to back up and show us how your conclusion is the only valid conclusion.



Quote:

Now to the answer, we as humans are made of Spirit, Soul and Body.

Where did this come from? You can't just insert something in a middle of an arguement w/o backing material or a proof. None of your previous statements stated, let alone proved, what humans consist of.


Your proof w/o using the bible doesn't logically work. I see you call on Billsey. I'm sure he'll support you in spirit. (Pun intended) But, he's an intelligent guy I hope he's just as agast of your logic within your claimed 'proof'.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Mar-2005 at 05:25 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 19-Mar-2005 at 05:22 AM.

I don't believe in an afterlife and here is why:
I question everything that people tell me and I accept nothing as the truth that people tell me. And I have only heard of things like god, afterlife and souls from other people. And I have never experienced anything that would be an indication that any of these claims were true.

On the other hand, I have heard scientific explanations of almost everything that happens in this world, including life. I have also heard these explanations from people, so yes, I also question these. But I really prefer theories like e.g. the theory of evolution - that have been developed by thinking about the problem and by brilliancy - to solutions like "there is something supernatural going on that can't be explained".

Statements like the latter have always been used when people didn't understand something. Like there were once gods for natural phenomenons like weather. As these things could be explained, the gods disappeared. And the same thing has happened for me with the christian god I once believed in, who was responsible for life and the universe. Once I could explain life and the universe scientifically for myself, he disappeared and afterlife disappeared with him.

Alex.

_________________
Weighty message. You should to read.

Hi All,


Let's see,

Life:
>0 seconds to ~110 years.

Afterlife:
Infinity time (can we even call it years?)


Slight discrepency there. Also, I guess it's not really infinity, because, there is a period of time BEFORE you existed.


SURELY, redemption is possible in infinity time????

If NOT, can't god heal the ill soul?

@saimo

Ape becomes man.
Man becomes aware of his mortality
Man becomes depressed as he realises that there is no point to life. It is a simple chemical chain reaction that started with the big bang (which itself was a simple chemical chain reaction).

Man splits into various species. Human, Neandertal, Java Man, etc.

Mutation in the human gene on species split, causes brain defects which menefest themselves as hallucinations and mental illness.

Trying to comprehend what is occuring, early humans develop concept of a higher being controling their world

Humans invent concept of afterlife and strive for a greater purpose

All other humanoids gradualy die off as they don't have the "drive" to survive the hardships of life. Hope is lost. Species fade into history.

Humans put down their survival to actual higher being, rather than realise it was just the "faith" in the higher being that gave them the strenght to survive.

Crude religion is invented which unites local tribes into following the same path. United tribes increaed survival chances in a hostile world.

All non united tribes fade into history.

Greater thought is put into religion as more is learned about the world in which they live.
Religions take on characterisitics of local survival conditions. In brutal landscapes, the religious concepts become more savage as normal worship doesn't prevent famines and plague. Concept of sacrifice to appease gods is invented.

As societies form and food production increases, there is now the free resources in manpower which enables Shamen and Priests to thrive. More thought is put into religion and this in turn leads to greater understanding of the "real" world.

Old religious concepts are dropped as they become redundant.
(This may take many thousands of years)


--


No energy has ever been recorded leaving a human body on death.

We fully understand what processes the body goes through on death. Large chemical reaction take place in the brain which release endorphins (This is a perfectly natural function of all mamal brains - It reduces the level of pain in buffalo as an example, as they are being eaten alive by wolves).

No person has ever been able to prove the existance of spirituality as anything other than a human concept. (Dolphins don't build shrines).

Supernatural activity has yet to be demonstrated under supervised conditions.

--

Even if we strip all the trimmings and examine basic human hopes, we can see that striving for greater purpose is perfectly natural (We want that job promotion - Hope the kids grow up to be succesful - Hope we have a long life).

I have yet to see any evidence of the existance of god, or of higher beings.
I have yet to see a religious theory stand up to scrutiny.
I have yet to see religious person have a better standard of life than a non religious person (The Pope's had a crappy life, Stalin enjoyed his life imensly - You'd think if god was watching, it would be more favourable to it's supporters)



IMHO, the afterlife is a perfectly rational concept for humans to have invented, given humans are aware of their mortality. Striving for somthing better is something humans share with all living creatures. (Grass want's more light - Buffalo want to make it across the croc infested river)

@T_Power

Quote:

I'll use the opposite "side" evil. I believe no intelligent person will deny the existence of a "Spirit" world which can be proved easily with "games" of cards, letters to spell words, glasses that move and point, etc.. This is NOT to be played with and tested, at most ask a reliable friend about the truth of these "games

Erm... There is currently a prize of 1 million US dollars waiting to be collected by anyone who can demonstrate this activity to the Sceptics Society

To date, nobody has collected the prize.

Its a sham. You know, snake oil salesmen?

Hi DruidPoet,


Comment #9 (from outer space); perfect synopsis in a nutshell.

@T_Power

Quote:

T_Power wrote: This is NOT to be played with and tested, at most ask a reliable friend about the truth of these "games".

How "reliable" is a "friend" < --huh??? who's dabbled into "evil forces"????

@saimo

Quote:

It will be my pleasure to continue with the other questions you have; however, assuming what you just said is true, do you agree that the most risky bet is made by those who don't care about afterlife?

Actually, no, because i don't consider the afterlife to be a possibility.

Quote:

Because otherwise also this life loses meaning: why would mankind struggle? Just to reproduce itself over and over again? To produce, at the same time and time after time, more and more suffering?

Such is the nature of the beast (mankind), all living things have one purpose that's preprogrammed into their DNA, into the very core of their being, namely, to reproduce.
My opinion is that this life has no meaning whatsoever, and why should our existance have any meaning other then existing itself?

Quote:

Instead, to the question: "Why would _not_ there be an afterlife?" there is no answer to be found (note that I'm saying that there would be no _reason_ why that should not be, not that there is no proof - which is obvious).

Why there wouldn't be an afterlife? Because all that you & me are is tied firmly with our fysical selves, our memories, our personality,it's all tied into the brain, damage to the brain is enough to alter ones personallity, memory or cognative thoughts, these things aren't part of some mystical force that can exist without the fysical selves.

If there is something that keeps existing above our fysical selves, it is meaningless to our current existance, as all we are is tied to our fysical selves.

Quote:

You are saying that there is no other reality because _this_ reality has a certain end. There must be a piece missing

I'm not saying there is no other plane of existance, but i'm saying that we aren't part of it now, and never will be.

Quote:

So, if someone says: there is a non-physical reality, i.e. something out of the scientific scope, you simply cannot use science (or anyway physical proofs) to answer.

True, but you can use logic, and considering everything in this plane of existance follows a logic, we can assume other planes of existance follow the same or simular logic.

It's not logical that one entity can assent to another plane of existance if all that makes that entity is tied into it's fysical self in one plane, that cannot assend into another plane, so the the rest can't neighter.

Quote:

Great. Here's a big part of the iceberg. If you had not said it, I'd have led you here Let's look at the whole iceberg, then. Gimme an aswer to this: why existence (of everything, I mean)?

The question isn't why, the question we should ask ourselves is How?

The assumption that there should be a greater meaning to existance is in my opinion very arrogant.

_________________
Amon's digital home

@dietmar

I hated the end of the Matrix, way to much religious nonsence to my liking, as for the filoshofy (spelling?), that's a whole other discussion

_________________
Amon's digital home

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @saimo Quote: assuming what you just said is true, do you agree that the most risky bet is made by those who don't care about afterlife? That depends on what the afterlife is. If it's the Christian concept then yes.

From the POV of a non-believer, it does not matter whether we're talking of the Christian afterlife or something else: just the possibility of its existence makes the bet risky.
My question was general.
So, who says that there is no afterlife, must accept that the consequence is that he/she is doing a bet that is already risky even by just looking at this single element (the possibility of existence of afterlife, I mean).


Quote:

But, I think if the Hindu or Buddist systems apply and you don't believe in that system you are still reincarnated but don't get to nirvana on this trip... Thus, while not as rewarding it's not necessarily risky either as you just get another shot at the goal.

Here we are one step further ahead: we are in the shoes of someone who believes in afterlife - with this I just want to separate clearly this part from what's written above.

So, once one believes in afterlife, then he/she will of course try to learn as much as possible about it in order to live this life with that future perspective in mind - if not, then this individual is quite foolish.
At this point there is a wide range of choices, but they are not all equal: there are some that are completely crazy, some that are fascinating and some that have some sort of "grip" on reality, that make you say "Hey, this does make sense" and even "Hey, this _is_ true".

Now, I'm Christian and the reason is simply that Jesus' message is the wisest, most unearthly, daring and yet sane message ever given to man... and, to complete this, is entirely rooted in this world, i.e. it's not just hot air, but brings tangible aspects with it.


saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@T_Power

Quote:

There IS an afterlife. The proof used will not be from the Bible, as non Christians don't believe the Bible anyway. I'll use the opposite "side" evil. I believe no intelligent person will deny the existence of a "Spirit" world which can be proved easily with "games" of cards, letters to spell words, glasses that move and point, etc.. This is NOT to be played with and tested, at most ask a reliable friend about the truth of these "games".

What makes you think those entities are assended people? And no, i don't believe in those neighter
I'm not saying there are planes of existance we can't reach, see, smell or see, but i'm saying there's no way one entity can cross over into another plane of existance.

Quote:

Once you have confirmed that these "games" are true, ask yourself this, who and what are these Forces->"Spirits" that interact with physical objects in these "games". The answer is evil spirits, from the Spirit world. The Bible states clearly that Christians are NOT to try and contact the spirit world, therefore these spirits must be evil and NOT from God.

Good and Evil is a human invention, and i do not believe in the existance of a God entity in whatever form you wantQuote:

Now to the answer, we as humans are made of Spirit, Soul and Body.

This is illogical, the spirit & soul do not exist according to me, and if they do exist, they are not relevant to this existance, as your conscience is tied into your fysical self, hence i see no point in living by certain rules just to make sure that bit of me end up in 'heaven'.

I don't believe in a heaven or hell neighter, those are also human concepts.

Quote:

Oops, let me back track a bit, why are we here on the earth in the first place? Think of it as the Olympics, before you can compete in the main event you MUST qualify. To qualify you MUST meet the standard laid down. The standard in this case is to be found sinless in God's sight.

More human made concepts and morals, the existance of this goes back to ancient times, and were probably the earliest form of law conceived by mankind.

Quote:

If you do NOT meet the standard, and die, your soul and spirit (the REAL YOU) will be FOREVER separated from God. (For more info read the Bible)

Considering i don't believe in a God entity this doesn't really convince me

Quote:

Now to all who will attack Christians for the truth, think on this. (and realize WHY you are attacking) We are NO better than anyone else, and most definitely NOT above or higher than anyone else. In fact Paul the apostle called himself the chief of sinners. But what we do have is the sure knowledge of an everlasting life in the presence of God through the saving work of Jesus Christ his Son. A Christians only hope is that others will see the truth too.

Actually, you think you have the sure knowledge, by the time you really find out wether or not you were right on this you won't be able to tell anyone

_________________
Amon's digital home

@Billsey

Quote:

The one thing that I think really grates on those who do not believe the Bible is that by their own standards—should they be honest—they are unable to sufficiently explain reality, because in order to maintain their lack of belief they must deny the one piece that actually fits the gap in the puzzle. Even though they know this to be true, if they fail to deny it . . .

"I think therefor i am" comes to mind.... But i'm not sure i fully understand your point, care to elaborate?

_________________
Amon's digital home

@DruidPoet

I fully agree & have the same opinions about religions & their existance

_________________
Amon's digital home

@saimo

Quote:

Now, I'm Christian and the reason is simply that Jesus' message is the wisest, most unearthly, daring and yet sane message ever given to man... and, to complete this, is entirely rooted in this world, i.e. it's not just hot air, but brings tangible aspects with it.

What's his message?

_________________
Amon's digital home

@Amon_Re

Quote:

Amon_Re wrote: @saimo Quote: It will be my pleasure to continue with the other questions you have; however, assuming what you just said is true, do you agree that the most risky bet is made by those who don't care about afterlife? Actually, no, because i don't consider the afterlife to be a possibility.

You must have missed my point
The fact that you believe in afterlife or not does not change the facts (whatever they are).
So, given that afterlife is a possibility (since there is no proof that it does not exist) that is not erased by one's disbelief, the bet becomes risky.

Maybe I'd better make an example.

You live in a country where it rains 50% of the days.
You are in a closed room and can't see outside.
You have to go out.
Once out, you can't get in anymore (for some strange reason - it does not matter which).
You would not like to get wet.
You have an unmbrella.
You have to decide whether to bring the umbrella.
Now, regardless of what you think the weather is like, it is what it is: your belief will not shelter you from the rain if you decide to leave the umbrella inside.

Quote:

Quote: Because otherwise also this life loses meaning: why would mankind struggle? Just to reproduce itself over and over again? To produce, at the same time and time after time, more and more suffering? Such is the nature of the beast (mankind), all living things have one purpose that's preprogrammed into their DNA, into the very core of their being, namely, to reproduce."

So you consider yourself a reproduction machine with the only task of reproducing reproduceability. Wow.

Quote:

My opinion is that this life has no meaning whatsoever

You are contradicting yourself: first you say that "all living things have one purpose" (i.e. a reason, a meaning), then you say "My opinion is that this life has no meaning whatsoever".
That is due, probably, to the fact that you can't even conceive a totally meaningless life, despite you stating the opposite.

But let's go on, and just look at "My opinion is that this life has no meaning whatsoever".
So, you are saying that whether you are alive or dead makes no difference.
Do you enjoy the thought of dying _now_?
Does it leave you indifferent?
If so, try to think of killing yourself (but please don't ever do so ): still indifferent?

Quote:

and why should our existance have any meaning other then existing itself?

Perhaps you have noticed that there is a thing, called "science", which is the perfect incarnation of one of the deepest and noblest inclinations of the human being: thirst of knowledge. Man strives to know why.
Then, look around you. Everything has a particular meaning. Everything.
But then you say that the whole has no meaning because... because.
Why should not man ask himslef the most important why of all?
Why ever the only thing without meaning would be the whole, despite the single parts having one?
Does it make any sense?

Quote:

Quote: Instead, to the question: "Why would _not_ there be an afterlife?" there is no answer to be found (note that I'm saying that there would be no _reason_ why that should not be, not that there is no proof - which is obvious). Why there wouldn't be an afterlife? Because all that you & me are is tied firmly with our fysical selves, our memories, our personality,it's all tied into the brain, damage to the brain is enough to alter ones personallity, memory or cognative thoughts, these things aren't part of some mystical force that can exist without the fysical selves. If there is something that keeps existing above our fysical selves, it is meaningless to our current existance, as all we are is tied to our fysical selves.

You are again using physical arguments to disprove one that is not physical. You are in practice trying to launch a rocket to the moon using a screwdriver

What if I tell you that the non-physical side acts and re-acts through our physical side (think of it as an I/O channel open between the two sides)? If the physical side is damaged (as you suggest) then the non-physical side can't "operate" the same way - that's pretty natural. The extreme consequence is that the non-physical side, when the other side is gone, cannot interact with the rest of the physical world as it did before.
However, nothing denies the existence of the non-physical side.

Quote:

Quote: You are saying that there is no other reality because _this_ reality has a certain end. There must be a piece missing I'm not saying there is no other plane of existance,

This positively surprises me

Quote:

but i'm saying that we aren't part of it now, and never will be. Quote: Because... ? [quote] [quote]So, if someone says: there is a non-physical reality, i.e. something out of the scientific scope, you simply cannot use science (or anyway physical proofs) to answer. True, but you can use logic, and considering everything in this plane of existance follows a logic, we can assume other planes of existance follow the same or simular logic. It's not logical that one entity can assent to another plane of existance if all that makes that entity is tied into it's fysical self in one plane, that cannot assend into another plane, so the the rest can't neighter.

You are using logic (a mathematical instrument that is pure wonder to my eyes), but, unfortunately, this tool entirely belongs to this reality, so its meaning would be different in a different reality with another logic: it could be part of the other logic, it could have no meaning, it could not exist at all... and who knows what. I can't think in a different logic, so I can't say.
So, when you say "It's not logical that one entity can assent..." holds only according to your (our) logic. But in a different one it could make perfectly sense.
Anyway, the point is always the same: you're using a tool of this reality to disprove another reality. It can't work - and this is by _our_ logic.

Quote:

Quote: Great. Here's a big part of the iceberg. If you had not said it, I'd have led you here Let's look at the whole iceberg, then. Gimme an aswer to this: why existence (of everything, I mean)? The question isn't why, the question we should ask ourselves is How?

I absolutely agree that we must ask ourselves "how?", but that's not an excuse to ignore "why?". On the contrary, without "why" there is no "how".
What's the use of knowing of how something works if it is not known what that thing is for?
Just imagine: great, I know every single electrical line inside this Amiga but... what's this Amiga for?
Would it be crazy, wouldn't it?
Now, when it comes to the existence, it's a lot more easier to describe the "hows" rather than answering THE WHY. But that does eliminate the need of asking why.

Quote:

The assumption that there should be a greater meaning to existance is in my opinion very arrogant.

I can't see the arrogance: it's the only possible answer we can give to the question "why?".
How does it sound "Existence has no meaning because. And anyway it is unnecessary to ask why"?
I see a fox having troubles with the grapes here


saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC