Although new hardware is -as always- "just around the corner", I'd like to reiterate on the status and release planning of AOS 4.0 for BlizzardPPC and CyberstormPPC.

The ongoing lack of hardware, stagnation of the userbase and lack of developers demands for an intermediate solution that is relatively quick and does not have to rely on hobby-hardware "two more weeks"-projects:
Finishing and releasing AOS 4.0 for hardware which is already out there: hundreds of _already existing_ BlizzardPPC and CyberstormPPC cards.

I would like to get an update on development status and estimated release planning. What features are still missing? Some months ago, I heard that SCSI-drivers for these cards are not ready yet. Then I heard from Adam that the Mediator-drivers are still "sluggish". OTOH it has been said that this version is "on par" with the AOne version, which was said to be "principally final" around Xmas 2005.

So when only these drivers are still missing, why not focussing on getting them fixed quickly and release OS 4.0 for this _existing_ hardware? I know it is not amazingly fast and far from being "optimal" hardware for OS4.0 But:
There is a pressing need to widen the userbase and getting some new developers on the bandwagon. Preferably NOW.

As a reason for not releasing the AOS 4.0 for Classic PPC, some people pointed out that "this wouldn't make a good impression on hardware sites such as Inquirer and ZDnet".

Even Rogue pointed this out in the IRC chat on Christmas:

"Rogue: We DO think that once we release AmigaOS4.0, there will be a general interest in the news, in media, etc. We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market, and they will ask where they can buy it.
If we tell them they cannot buy it right now and need to wait until the hardware is available, then this will take away a lot of momentum that the release will generate.
Hence we decided to postpone the release until such time as a hardware platform IS available."

OTOH, Rogue recently stated that "There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics."

...which I find very contradicting to the statement in the IRC log that "We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market" and "will ask where they can buy it".
Why should we care about them, when they won't buy AOS 4.0 anyway?

Last edited by polka. on 30-May-2006 at 03:19 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 29-May-2006 at 10:46 AM.

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@polka.

i couldn't agree more!

"What features are still missing? Some months ago, I heard that SCSI-drivers for these cards are not ready yet."

is this something related to cybppc.device owned by Phase5? (or MOS team, don't know) or it will be rewritten?

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@Framiga

Quote:

is this something related to cybppc.device owned by Phase5? (or MOS team, don't know) or it will be rewritten?

Yes, as far as I know this relates to the Symbios 710/770 SCSI on BPPC and CSPPC. I think Morphos features a PPC-native implementation of blizzppc.device and cybppc.device.

Last edited by polka. on 24-May-2006 at 10:38 AM.

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@polka.

I think they should release the prerelease for classics to.
The machines aren't getting any younger really. Soon there
won't be any to sell OS4 to if this keeps on.

So what if all drivers aren't finished yet. Release updates
for classics later. Ryu seems to run his A1200 just fine already.

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@polka.

yes on MOS i know are native (using MOS for PuP here since the release) but how it will sorted out under AmigaOS4 for PowerUP? (query to Rogue)

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@polka.
I too vote for a quick release of OS4 for my BlizzPPC :)

@polka.

It's strange to see someone that has in his profile "Occupation: Pirate." to ask for the release of OS4 for Classic.
I trully wonder why you want it to be released. To buy it ? Hmm, I have some doubts.

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Quote:

elwood wrote: @polka. It's strange to see someone that has in his profile "Occupation: Pirate." to ask for the release of OS4 for Classic. I trully wonder why you want it to be released. To buy it ? Hmm, I have some doubts.

Hi elwood,

It doesn't end there but I won't go into details, except suffice to say that as soon as it's released the known trolls will "spread the word" that it's available, and should be reviewed by all the big media outlets willing to listen, at which point, there IS in fact NO hardware to be bought to try it out.


Is this a great idea? Of course not!!

It would be a coup for the enemy at the Gates.


5 years down the toilet.

@elwood
Quote:

It's strange to see someone that has in his profile "Occupation: Pirate." to ask for the release of OS4 for Classic.

I am a big fan of "Pirates!" and spend many of my time on playing it on my Amiga (it just never gets boring) - thereofore the (second) occupation.
Further, it was perfectly fitting to my previous avatar, the church of the flying spaghetti monster. More info can be found here: http://www.venganza.org/ if you are interested to become a member.

No, I intend to buy OS 4.0 and don't know why some people here keep on constantly questioning wether I would a) buy OS 4.0 for BPPC or b) buy new hardware when it is released.

Aren't there any more important topics to discuss? That is, the topic of this thread? Can we get on-topic again, please?

Last edited by polka. on 24-May-2006 at 12:45 PM.

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@polka.

I would buy OS4.0 now for my A4000 (with Cyberstorm PPC &CV64/3D) if it were available. I already have OS4.0 on my A1-XE & Micro A1-C. I'm currently trying to get MorphOS running on my A4000 and would love to have a dual (or even triple) booting system with OS4/MorphOS (& OS3.9) just for the h*ll of it.

I also still plan to buy the new "Amiga" when OS4.0 is finally released. (No bragging intended).

TrevorDick

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@elwood
Quote:

I trully wonder why you want it to be released.

I have explained this in some detail in the first post. Thanks in advance for actually reading it. Maybe you even have some opinion and intend to comment on it instead of your baiting.

Last edited by polka. on 24-May-2006 at 01:05 PM.

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@TrevorDick

Quote:

I'm currently trying to get MorphOS running on my A4000 and would love to have a dual (or even triple) booting system with OS4/MorphOS (& OS3.9) just for the h*ll of it.

Wow, triple booting would be great. That's nearly the whole Amiga-world in one computer. Apart from OS4.0, I would also like to try out Morphos at some point, but unfortunately it doesn't support my Mediator. It would be interesting to know how the pci.library and support for Mediator-devices will effectively be integrated into OS4.0.
How far is development?

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@polka.

Quote:

I would like to get an update on development status and estimated release planning.

Not much work has been invested into the classic version.

Quote:

OTOH it has been said that this version is "on par" with the AOne version, which was said to be "principally final" around Xmas 2005.

That goes for all the parts that are not system-dependent, and some of the system dependent parts too. Usually, though, the focus is on Next-Gen hardware, not classic.

There will always be a lack of drivers. PCI support for Mediator is not even done (only Prometheus at the moment) and I personally don't even have a working classic setup right now. However, the lack of DMA and even trivial thinks like bridge support will mean that there have to be special adaptions of drivers. I refuse to go for hacks like using Video ram for buffers.

Before someone comes up with the bogus argument that we had to support "special hacks" for the IDE drivers too, that is not the point. These are local to the driver. A DMA buffer in video ram (for example for soundcards) requires changes in both the video card driver AND the sound card driver.

Quote:

So when only these drivers are still missing, why not focussing on getting them fixed quickly and release OS 4.0 for this _existing_ hardware?

Because, plainly, the effort *right now* (before someone gets the idea again the classic version is cancelled) is too high, and the expected return makes it questionable.

Quote:

As a reason for not releasing the AOS 4.0 for Classic PPC, some people pointed out that "this wouldn't make a good impression on hardware sites such as Inquirer and ZDnet".

A 200 Mhz machine that is kept together by duct tape will most likely not make much of an impression, yes.

Quote:

...which I find very contradicting to the statement in the IRC log that "We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market" and "will ask where they can buy it". Why should we care about them, when they won't buy AOS 4.0 anyway?

It doesn't require much imagination, don't you think? While there is not much hope to attract a lot of users from outside the Amiga market, there is still a chance for two specific groups:

- Ex-Amiga users. These will most likely not have any classic hardware (at least not with PowerPC cards) lying around, and are NO target for a classic release

- Nerds and Geeks. There are people that are attracted by computing stuff that is sufficiently different from the mainstream, and therefore might consider buying.

I am sorry, but making an official release on hardware that is almost 15 years old doesn't really seem to make much sense to me. That's a wasted opportunity.

Why? Because, like AmigaOne's, you CANNOT buy classic hardware anymore (minus E-Bay, but let's be serious). I don't see any difference to the current situation with AmigaOne's. None of them are available, so none of them would suit any newcomer (or returner) to the Amiga world.

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@Framiga

Quote:

is this something related to cybppc.device owned by Phase5? (or MOS team, don't know) or it will be rewritten?

We already rewrote the SCSI driver for the CyberStormPPC. BlizzardPPC is being worked on. We do not use MOS code.

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@polka.

Quote:

Wow, triple booting would be great. That's nearly the whole Amiga-world in one computer

Not!! Lack AROS!

Time ago I suggested bounty to port AROS to PowerUP in Aros-exec.
My idea in these days was to do the ultimade A1200 mod with a compact flash to ide adaptator and made a CF for each OS (AOS3.x,MorphOS, AmigaOS4,AROS,LINUX) and change the OS with a change of the CF (previous power off, of course )
I even hope to be able to do it someday

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@Fransexy
Quote:

Not!! Lack AROS!

I see you didn't notice the word "nearly" in my post.

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@polka.

Quote:

polka. wrote: @Fransexy Quote: Not!! Lack AROS! I see you didn't notice the word "nearly" in my post.

I see you didn´t notice the smiley

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@Rogue

First, thanks for the update. Maybe you can clarify a few things:

Quote:

PCI support for Mediator is not even done (only Prometheus at the moment) and I personally don't even have a working classic setup right now.

Wasn't Adam working on Mediator drivers? Adam told us that the Powervixxen will support the Mediator. Further, he told us that the drivers are still a bit "sluggish".
Since he is part of the OS4-team, why can't you just use his drivers? Or do you have any doubts that the Powervixxen and a bundled version of OS4 will be released in June/July?

Quote:

Because, plainly, the effort *right now* (before someone gets the idea again the classic version is cancelled) is too high, and the expected return makes it questionable.

I always had the impression that OS4 was planned and developed for both AmigaOne AND Classic PPC from the start.
Since you said that the effort *right now* is too high - what possibilities do you see in the future that the effort will be any lower?
"Expected return makes it questionable" you say - you kept on developing for 5 years and invest a 6-digit sum to find out in the end that the "expected return" makes it questionable to release it? Why has the Classic PPC version ever been developed then?
Do you honestly think the sales will be any higher in 2007, 2008 when there are possibly even less Amigans left and more BPPC-cards broken?

Quote:

It doesn't require much imagination, don't you think? While there is not much hope to attract a lot of users from outside the Amiga market, there is still a chance for two specific groups: - Ex-Amiga users. These will most likely not have any classic hardware (at least not with PowerPC cards) lying around, and are NO target for a classic release - Nerds and Geeks. There are people that are attracted by computing stuff that is sufficiently different from the mainstream, and therefore might consider buying.

I agree on these two groups, I am just wondering where users with Amiga Classic systems and BPPC/CSPPC belong? First or second group? And there definately ARE Ex-Amiga users, who came back to the platform and pimped their Amigas to PowerPC-level (I am just one of them, started in the late 80ies). There is a big demand for BPPC/CSPPC on Ebay, the prices are horrendous.

Quote:

I am sorry, but making an official release on hardware that is almost 15 years old doesn't really seem to make much sense to me.

You stated that

a) the effort to release it is too high (right now)
b) expected return makes it questionable
c) making an official release on hardware that is almost 15 years old doesn't really seem to make much sense to you

Yet, you said that the Classic-version is not "cancelled". So what's the plan then?
Will it only be available to betatester forever (why was it started then at all?)?
Or will it be released to the public at a certain point? And what point in time will that be?

Last edited by polka. on 24-May-2006 at 02:14 PM.

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@Atheist

Quote:

It doesn't end there but I won't go into details, except suffice to say that as soon as it's released the known trolls will "spread the word" that it's available, and should be reviewed by all the big media outlets willing to listen, at which point, there IS in fact NO hardware to be bought to try it out.

I think thats the most paranoid thing I've ever heard you say.

Quote:

Because, like AmigaOne's, you CANNOT buy classic hardware anymore (minus E-Bay, but let's be serious). I don't see any difference to the current situation with AmigaOne's.

Yes, let`s be serious. You CAN relatively easy find classic hardware in perfect working condition, (i`m talking from personal expirience) not only in e-bay which is indeed risky but in many trusted Amiga shops like Amigakit etc. I don`t think that you can do that for an A1.

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