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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Warp3D?
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fjudde 
Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 9:56:14
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 146
From: Stockholm/Sweden

In the latest CAM I read about Warp3D being available for AmigaOS. Since I lately (15 years?) not have been into gaming and 3D stuff. I have little knowledge of 3D-systems.

What is Warp 3D?

Is it a common 3D interface?
Does it by default support a number of 3D graphic cards?
Or do someone have to develop a warp3D compatible driver for a specific 3d card?
Is it a competitor or complement to OpenGL? (I don't know what OpenGL is either)
How is it compared to OpenGL?
Is it open source?
Does it come in different versions?
If so, is it easy to port to amigaOS when a new version is released?
What will it mean to games and 3D software on AmigaOS?

And, the Warp3D on AmigaOS spoken of by Hyperion in the CAM, Is it a PPC or 68k version? (Maybe a question for Hyperion?)

So, What is it

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Rogue 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 11:08:05
#2 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

OK, here's a bit of history, probably more than you bargained for

Warp3D is a 3D interface designed and implemented by Sam Jordan, Thomas Frieden and Hans-Joerg Frieden (aka me ). We've started the project out of frustration that there was a supposed 3D card (the CyberVision64/3D) but no public 3D support library. Sam was the first one to come up with the idea, mainly based on the desire to have a hardware-accelerated OpenGL/Mesa port.

Thomas and me had just successfully ported the game "Descent" from the PC to the Amiga, and even though the original was software-rendering only, we added support for the ViRGE chip that was used on the CV64/3D. This is how Sam Jordan and the two of us got together. I think this was around 1995 or so.

A little bit later the CyberVisionPPC came out, a card based on the much superior Permedia2 chipset (superior when compared to the Virge). Up to that point Warp3D had only been running on the ViRGE, but as it turned out, the driver concept that we had thought of worked out, and applications could transparently use either graphics chip (Descent again was one of the first Warp3D-capable games).

With Elbox (and later DCE's) introduction of PCI, we extended the supported graphics card to the Voodoo 3 (a big "thank you" to Thomas Dellert of DCE for the first G-REX prototype!).

As mentioned in CAM, Warp3D now runs on the AmigaOne and classics under OS4.

What it is: It is a 3D API, a rather slim layer above the hardware, and can be used as a hardware driver (for example in a Mesa port) as well as directly by a game. For our port of Heretic II, I had written a library that implements a subset of OpenGL (dubbed MiniGL). Conceptually Warp3D resembles Glide, only that it isn't fixed to a certain hardware - like I said it works with virge, Permedia2 and Voodoo 3 (although Virge support has been discontinued in the meanwhile - the chip is too slow to actually "accelerate" anything).

And yes, it's a PPC version of course

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ikir 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 11:28:53
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2002
Posts: 5646
From: Italy

Quote:
Hans-Joerg Frieden (aka me)




Quote:
As mentioned in CAM, Warp3D now runs on the AmigaOne and classics under OS4.


THIS IS A FANTASTIC NEWS

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JurassicC 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 11:30:40
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 1433
From: Somerset, UK

@Rogue
You forgot to mention it kicks ass as well !!

So have you had any Warp 3D / WarpOS games running under OS4 Yet ?
Whats the performance like ?
Hows the radeon support ?

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Rogue 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 12:12:26
#5 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:
You forgot to mention it kicks ass as well !!


That's implicit

Quote:
So have you had any Warp 3D / WarpOS games running under OS4 Yet ?
Whats the performance like ?


The only thing right now is glSokoban, and, well, it's already fast on the old machines. There wasn't any time to port anything else at the moment.

Quote:
Hows the radeon support ?


Not yet started. There's too much to do ATM, but I'm looking forward to it - this kind of work is always fun...

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dimmck 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 14:51:00
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2003
Posts: 415
From: Cheney, WA

@Hans-Joerg

Thanks for that bit of history. I knew Sam Jordan was involved, but didn't know (or had forgotten) that you and Thomas had worked on it.
We saw Sam's name more often in terms of WarpUp.

Dave M.

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fjudde 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 17:16:05
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 146
From: Stockholm/Sweden

Thank you Hans-Joerg for letting me have some of you're time.

So if I understood it right. Software (openGL, games or almost anything) interface with Warp3D. Then the Warp3D will interface with the hardware and taking care off hardware differences. Thus making programming 3D much easier. You only have to understand Warp3D instead of many different 3D cards.

With that in mind "Hardware Abstraction Layer" popped into my head. I looked it up and found this

Quote:
HAL = An operating system component that lets programmers write device-independent code without the overhead normally seen with an API; an interface that might otherwise be used.


But since you said that Warp3D is an API it can't be a HAL, right? If that's true and the above statement about overhead is correct even on Warp3D. Then, have you thought about making Warp3D a part (os component) of AmigaOS?

And thanks for the history lesson to. It makes it more personal and alive with a story attached to it. I never thought you where the ones doing this to Heavy workload you've got! I won't stand in your way (I can wait a couple of weeks longer if needed) when vacation is on the schedule. I hope it's soon.

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Rogue 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 17:46:47
#8 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:
You only have to understand Warp3D instead of many different 3D cards.


Exactly. That was the purpose.

Quote:
But since you said that Warp3D is an API it can't be a HAL, right?


That's a matter of definition. Warp3D can serve as both. On Windows there is a wrapper around Direct3D that implements OpenGL, using Direct3D as a "HAL". Any HAL defines an programming interface to whatever is above it, and the "A" only comes from the fact that this is an Application using it.

Warp3D consists of a main library that the user/programmer sees and a driver library that drives the graphics card (and an additional library that abstracts Picasso96 or CGX). Most functions in the main library just call the driver library, for example a function W3D_DrawElements() in the main library directly calls W3DHW_DrawElements() in the driver library, so the overhead is almost zero.

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fjudde 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 19:25:29
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 146
From: Stockholm/Sweden

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The_Editor 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 19:35:31
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7626
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

Quote:
Quote:
Hows the radeon support ?


Not yet started. There's too much to do ATM, but I'm looking forward to it - this kind of work is always fun...


Ok .. I can wait for my Radeon 8500 (hint hint) to get supported.

Just get the os out soon!!

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ikir 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 9-Nov-2003 22:34:22
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2002
Posts: 5646
From: Italy

Quote:
What other communities can brag about talking direct with the developers?

I love Hyperion

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olegil 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 9:58:01
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

Well, a HAL is a PI, just usually a very simple and lightweight one. So if a HAL is open to user space applications it must ergo be an API.

Theoretical definitions are, by definition, wrong. You can't say that there has to be a recognisable difference between the overhead of a HAL and an API, because you never know how someone will implement the API. It's impossible to say that in general terms

Warp3D is a lightweight hardware abstraction API

HAL, open the pod bay doors.

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Toaks 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 12:52:10
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

this is just exellent news, can someone guide me to the devkit ? , nah ok i will email hyperion i guess (since i have a few other questions aswell)

cheers

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samo79 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 13:17:43
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3352
From: Italy, Perugia

I love Hyperio too !

OT:

Question for Hyperion team: Any plan to port Quake 3 Arena on Amiga/AmigaOne ?

Thanks

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Toaks 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 13:31:57
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

sorry for the missleading post , i meant devkit for w3d on os4 and not 4.0/4.2 dev +autodocs on aminet.
(os4 info as in =)
ie stuff to not do as before...etc.

cheers

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Zorro 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 16:35:59
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2003
Posts: 1081
From: Italy

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
Quote:
You forgot to mention it kicks ass as well !!


That's implicit





Quote:
I'm looking forward to it - this kind of work is always fun...


I am happy for you !

...and for all the amigans, obviously !

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x56h34 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 19:51:35
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2003
Posts: 439
From: ON, Canada

@Rogue:

As a brand new user or WarpUP/Warp3D I could use a little help, if you would be kind enough to spend a few minutes on this issue.

I was wondering if you could suggest what would be the best performance settings, or should I say CORRECT configuration of WarpUP/Warp3D in AOS3.9-BB2 for use with CSPPC 060 @ 50Mhz / 604e @ 200Mhz, Mediator 4000, Voodoo 3 3000 PCI?

I know how to do basic installation, however I'm not sure about tips and tricks with ENV-Variables.

Looking forward to trying out Hyperion ports such as Quake 2!

Thanks!

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Rogue 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 20:21:29
#18 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:
I know how to do basic installation, however I'm not sure about tips and tricks with ENV-Variables.


As long as you are using the mediator drivers in non-MMU mode, the default setting is the best bet. I'd rather not modify anything.

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x56h34 
Re: Warp3D?
Posted on 10-Nov-2003 21:18:52
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2003
Posts: 439
From: ON, Canada

Alright, so the Mediator MMU ENV variable should be set to NO, and leave everything else on default settings. Thanks!

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