@Tomas

It's beginning to really be boring. If you want to use a Mac PPC machine, then buy one second hand on EBay and either use MacOS, Linux or BSD, that's okay for me, I won't bother you. That's all.
Or if you want to use OS4, then just buy an OS4 supported machine : now an A1 SE/XE/micro from ebay or wait for the annouced boards that you would be able to buy new.

And stop whining for a port to such or such hardware pretexting it use the same processor familly, what will be next ? A port to my washing-machine because it's also based upon some sort of PPC ? A port to the lift of my office ? Stop it ! People in charge of OS4 told you that won't be, then that won't be point ! Stop asking why again and again and again and again and again !

The forum is full of those non sens threads, just read them again and again and again, I'm sure you find all the answers you are requesting in this one !

Wasn't it an article in the TOS about SPAMING the forums with the same subject prone to flamming etc ?

Except some posts from Itix and Cobra in the MOSEmu thread that contained some interesting informations discussed in a civilized form (not in all posts that's right), AW.net does not bring many interesting discussions for a long time now IMHO just blind fights, flams, trolls That's a pity, where is the AW.net I registered a bit more than 2 years ago ?

EDIT: layout correction

Last edited by abalaban on 03-Oct-2006 at 03:30 PM.

_________________
AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

@vision

Windows has been ported to alpha, ppc as well as mips r4x00.

Microsoft does have a tad more money that Hyperion, so they can afford to throw money away on ports that will never be seen outside of the safe they are kept within.


Final point: microsoft owns their os. Hyperion does not own Amiga OS.
Therefore they require the approval of others to port.
it really is that simple.


Besides, what's the friggin point since apple no longer sell ppc-hardware (AFAIK the last model with ppc-based hw was recently cancelled and replaced with core2-technology)?

edit: typo.

Last edited by Insanity on 03-Oct-2006 at 03:45 PM.

_________________
Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.

If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
/Ins

@Insanity

You didn´t understand anything:
I mean: windows is running on x86 macs without m$ even paying 1 cent!!

That's a fact. Like the thinking of all teh community that porting OS4 to mac IS EASY

I can understand if they don´t wanna do it. It's their party, so I respect them. But nobody will convince us that this is something hard.

@Insanity

Quote:

Windows has been ported to alpha, ppc as well as mips r4x00. Microsoft does have a tad more money that Hyperion, so they can afford to throw money away on ports that will never be seen outside of the safe they are kept within.

Actually it's the other way around, WindowsNT was ported from MIPs processors to x86.

Also, the other CPU versions were not exactly secret, they were on sale at one point. My Alpha board was in an NT workstation originally.

Quote:

At the end of the day OS4 is a closed source OS ( as I mentioned previously) this means that the devs cannot "look at" the source to Linux which is GPL'd to develop OS4.x. 3rd parties can write drivers based on Linux drivers as long as they are GPL'd drivers but thats as far as it goes.

You can look at GPL code as much as you like, providing you do not directly copy it, your code is *not* GPL.

_________________
Whyzzat?

Quote:

_ThEcRoW wrote: @sananaman That pearpc you are saying is a fake. There is no hardfile hacked to work with pearpc, at least public. Show me an screenshot.

I'm waiting for a screenshot (better video) too because the pearpc-packet is like TheCrow said already: a big FAKE.

_________________
Sam440ep & AmigaOS4.1 @ Morex 3677 case
---
(DaFreak of Liquid Skies & Moods Plateau)

@Tomas

Quote:

But why cant you explain why it is impossible? Why has BSD and Linux distros been ported just fine? If the lack of docs is the problem, then one could always look at the sources of BSD or linux and see how it was done there.

There's a certain amount of effort involved in reading the Linux/BSD open-source stuff and learnign what's going on. A lot of that source code isn't really going to let you understand what's actually happening, only that some undescribed value is being written to some undescribed address. That's not "cool" if you want to _understand_ it, and some of these OS4 guys don't want to _support_ something they cannot _understand_. I'm one of them. I don't want to see that some guy for some unknown reason wrote value 0xf00d do address $feed, I want to see that in order to define the capacity of the IDE DMA buffer to be 128KB that you have to write value 0x0080 (perhaps #defined to IDE_DMA_BUF_128KB) to the IDE register named IDE_DMA_BUF_SIZE found at address 0xd0d0. And if you obtain the knowledge from the BIOS data structures of what size that IDE DMA buffer is, then I want to know that, and I want to know how to get tho it in that data structure, not just blindly do some magic but undefined reads and writes of arbitrary valuues to and from arbitrary addresses.

It's not impossible to use the open-source stuff as a reference. But the people who need to do that have to be willing to do that. Apparently they are not willing to do that. From the things they say, one might assume that if these people are presented with real documentation that they may reconsider. If you and others of your opinion take up my challenge and succeed in finding real documentation, then we can go back to these OS4 guys and try and convince them it's suddenly practical. They may still not be interested, they may come up with new excuses, they may just say no, whatever. Or they might be interested, we won't know until/unless we get there. Sure, there's still the license issue, and we must assume at this point that Hyperion either tried and failed at some point to get a Mac OS4 license from Amiga Inc., or that they don't want to do this themselves and some 3rd party will have to attempt this with AI, and I'm willing to do that part. Even if we get that far, AI may still say no, may continue ignoring some inquiries, may tell us that my rabid ranting and raving about the license situation over the past year annoyed someone important and it all now excludes me from future negotiations, whatever.

But to get anywhere with the OS4 programmers and the license guys, we need to be able to convince them that it makes sense from their point of view regarding how much of THEIR time and energy are required, we have to meet THEIR documentation requirements, we have to make it worth THEIR while and convince them that it is practical to THEM. We need to be able to say "Hey, there's a pile of documentation over there for model X of Mac hardware", the whole entire complete system not just parts of it, or we need to be able to tell them that it's absolutely guaranteed available but only under NDA, contact this guy at that company, fill out NDA form G and all will be told.

For things like this, it doesn't really matter what's theoretically _possible_ or not. There's people involved, and for reverse-engineering open-source code, they _don't want to do that_. Stop trying to nag them into doing something they don't want to, and get to work trying to find out if we can change the problem, and find a way to give them something that they _do want to do_ which might have the same end result to us users. It might not be possible, but even so we all might learn something from the attempt and gain some understanding about WHY these OS4 guys don't want to reverse-engineer Linux.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

minator, right.
I read the story of NT once and it was really solidly built afaik.

Wasn't alpha the original platform?
or is my mind playing tricks on me

vision:
uhm I thought there was more substance to what you said than that.


of course windows runs on x86-macs since:

1: Core2 is an intel IBM PC compatible processor. (what today is called PC)
2: x86-macs have intel-chipsets.

so apple can only do so much with those basic building blocks. basically it is a PC put together by apple.

I dunno if there is any custom chips on it, maybe, but still it was only a question of time before someone got windows running on x86macs.

edit: added the following:
remember that mac-os X is running on generic x86 hardware as well.

edit2: I was mainly talking about w2k as NT is VERY old these days. w2k also has the same platform support, but only the alpha release of the alpha-cpu-port was ever release afaik

Last edited by Insanity on 03-Oct-2006 at 04:44 PM.
Last edited by Insanity on 03-Oct-2006 at 04:41 PM.

_________________
Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.

If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
/Ins

@Insanity

Quote:

it was only a question of time before someone got windows running on x86macs.

Exactly the same situation for the PPC hardware and OS4!!

You said!

@abalaban

Quote:

AW.net does not bring many interesting discussions for a long time now IMHO

So, what do you do to help fix the situation, since you see that as such a big problem?

...

Guessed so.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@billt

Strawman, Bill, strawman.

Have you actually looked at the code and found it to be such a big, uninteresting and unitelligible mess as you make it out to be? Linux sources, and more so *BSD ones, are fully commented.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@vision

so get to work damnit and don't say another word about it unless it is:

"I cannot"

and if so, never mention it again?

_________________
Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.

If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
/Ins

@pixie

Quote:

It's an EULA thing, and as such moot... you had payed for it, you have the right over what you buy, it's that 'simple'

Speaking personally, I'd like to think I have the right to do what I want with what I buy, but the fact remains that the legal grounding for what you actually are entitled to do is shaky at best. Especially in the UK, where there are no "fair use" laws that uphold our right to do what we want with what we've bought. I think - don't quote me on it - that it is theoretically "illegal" for us to rip our own CDs to put onto a portable digital audio player, but not enforced because of it's questionable moral standing.

Same for software. Apple may very well be within their rights to say that it is only allowed for use on their hardware.

Advocating its use on non-Apple hardware would, of course, be advocating the principle that you can run software you have bought on whatever hardware you want. I would wager that many people would be upset if this was done with OS4!

@afxgroup
Quote:

you cannot see the os4 code since it isn't GPL and so u cannot se how it works internally

Did you ever heard about disassemblers?... Even Grim Reaper has such one built in, to make you see how software works internally, w/o the source. And of course, experienced programmers are quite familiar with code schemes GCC or other compilers of their flavour generate...

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@nine

Quote:

nine wrote: @pixie Advocating its use on non-Apple hardware would, of course, be advocating the principle that you can run software you have bought on whatever hardware you want. I would wager that many people would be upset if this was done with OS4!

I doubt it :o)

_________________
Fraggle

- insert profound text here -

@sicky

As most Mac programs now come as Universal Binaries, is it just a matter of 'flipping a switch' when compiling to create a universal or ppc binary version of OS4onMac?

Failing that, perhaps the ppc version could run using the Rosetta emulation?

@DaFreak

I've checked the PearPC installation and it's indeed a FAKE.
File: "Amiga Os4 Pre-Release Hacked To Work With Pearpc Emulator Windows!.rar"

The hardfile is a renamed .avi file and the amiga_uboot1.0.1.bin is a renamed .jpg file.
So that mystery is solved now. IT's FAKE!

Thanks for the info.

_________________
AmigaScene.nl

@nine
Will Apple go suing the user who had payed for his MacOS X? I don't think it will... neither that it would make any sense...
Suing for buyng apple goods... well, that's something I could think Amiga Inc doing, but Apple? They cannot be that stupid, can they?

Last edited by pixie on 03-Oct-2006 at 06:17 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@falemagn

Quote:

Have you actually looked at the code and found it to be such a big, uninteresting and unitelligible mess as you make it out to be? Linux sources, and more so *BSD ones, are fully commented.

I've seen some that is not. At the time I was looking at xfree Radeon code, there was very little commenting at all, there were lots of arbitrary hard-coded values being written to different arbitrary hard-coded addresses, and I haven't looked at it again since. Granted, that's been a while and things may have changed since, but it left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't care to revisit it. There may very well be some decent comments in some things, but it's not there for other things. I consider source code as supplemental to documentation, not the one and only form of it. I've had to reverse-engineer code that was completely uncommented before, for work, and create human-readable documentation for other programmers to use it, so I know that even poorly commented code can be figured out to some useful degree, but I also never want to do that again. Well-commented code might be a good bit easier to document, but again, I don't want to do that. Apparently the Friedens and others also do not want to do that. You're probably a better programmer than I am falemagn, I spend most of my work hours doing place/route work for silicon layout these days, but you can't take what you are willing to do and assume that every other programmer, even the other really really good ones comparable to yourself, are interested in doing it that same way.

Regardless, the requirements of the OS4 guys say that open-source is not acceptable as the only source of "documentation". I can't make those guys change their minds so I'm not going to keep trying.

I don't care if you like digging through open-source. I don't care if you're not concerned about GPL issues. I don't care if you can show us some open-source code that is very well commented. I don't care what Linux or BSD or anyting else runs on, has drivers for, or works well with. They don't want to do that, so whether or not some open-source is better than others means exacly nothing as far as getting OS4 ported to Macs is concerned. Because of the particular documentation requirements the OS4 guys demand, none of that has any relevance to the problem at hand. If they guys who do the OS4 programming work say that open-source as the only source is not acceptable, then we need to throw out that idea and find a new equation that leads us to the same solution. We can't force these people to change their documentation policies, so instead let's at least attempt to meet those policies. What's good for AROS may not be good for or wanted or welcome by OS4 developers...

How many times do they have to say no before you consider to look for new approaches to the problem at hand? One of the definitions of insanity is to do something over and over again the same way and expect to get a different result.

I'd like to see if we can all collect the _required documentation_ as defined by the OS4 guys that need to do the OS4 programming work, and find out what happens.

Last edited by billt on 03-Oct-2006 at 06:51 PM.
Last edited by billt on 03-Oct-2006 at 06:51 PM.
Last edited by billt on 03-Oct-2006 at 06:41 PM.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@RedMelons

Quote:

Failing that, perhaps the ppc version could run using the Rosetta emulation?

Yes that crossed my mind, interesting days we live in!

_________________
SAM 460 with 2GB or RAM, 1000GB HD, 4 port SATA, DVDRW drive and Radeon HD 4650 GFX card.

@billt

That's more like it.

The: "less talk, more action -aproach".

So if it after this initiative is still deemed impossible, maybe then less people will bring this up?

otherwize it'll be up to A.Inc.

_________________
Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.

If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
/Ins