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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
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Poll : Do you agree or disagree?
Yes
No
Not sure
 
PosterThread
Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 21:52:49
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Quote:

Carl-S wrote:
In the "AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?" topic, I made this statement:

Quote:
I know quite well what an Amiga is. To me, Amiga is well defined.

Saimo asked me to elaborate, and it would be my pleasure to do so.

Here is my definition of Amiga:

The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership.

Are you surprised I define Amiga that way? Not in terms of CPU, MHz, bus, chips, or apps? Here's what I mean...

Computer System:
Amiga is a complete system including both software and hardware. You want people to be able to buy the entire package, not just the "kit". For software, from what I've seen, I think OS4 does it quite well. For hardware, I don't care what CPU, as long as it can fully satisfy the rest of the definition below. (Remember that I was one of the main 68000 supporters, but I think the CPU topic is no longer relevant.)

Enables:
This is the action verb. To me this word is more than just the opposite of disable (e.g. Windows), it means to empower. The computer should work for people, not the other way around. (As I've said before.)

Millions:
Do we want just a few Amiga users or do we want millions? I still believe in what we started back in 1985. Millions of users gives us a true marketplace where hundreds of products can afford to be developed, supported, and thrive.

Creative People:
Creative people solve problems. They think. They enhance. The legacy of Amiga is the amazing list of doers, thinkers, artists, musicians, programmers, and even CEOs who have owned and used Amiga over the last two decades. Those are the kind of people you want using your system - not droids. And also, I don't just mean creative users, I am also talking about creative developers and entrepreneurs who make it possible from the start.

Low Cost:
This has always been an important component of the Amiga dream. We want schools, families, community orgs, hobbyests, and small businesses to buy into Amiga. We want the starving artists. We want the young genius or rebellious kid. So, the barrier to entry must be low. In fact, if it were possible to rejuvenate old PC boxes and laptops to make them decent Amigas, I would be for that. (Remember how Linux got started?) There is also more to low cost than just the purchase price... cost includes support.

Final Note
I know that many current users will not agree with all these points (perhaps mostly the last). But, it's important to start with the top level definition. That's how we made the original Amiga. We decided what was most important.

All goals are not equal. If you want to go for the big win, you sometimes have to give up a few lesser desires.

I would love to see the Amiga return someday as a force in the computing arena. I actually think it is possible, as insane as that may sound. But, it's going to require a clear vision and a grassroots unity of purpose.



Not read the entire thread.. not had time - but I agree wholehartedly with the above. This should be used as a statement of intent - a manifesto to drive everyone forward.

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fjudde 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 21:53:56
#182 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 146
From: Stockholm/Sweden

@falemagn

Quote:
Bill, in all honesty, I'm sick and tired of your continuous attacks, mispresentation of my words and ramblings about me, AROS and whatever else comes to your mind that adds nothing to the discussions.

falemagn:
Quote:
this is the real world, people can be liked and disliked, live with it.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20885&forum=6&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#331943
You actually said "live with it"


Quote:
I hereby ask the moderators to please, give billt a pinch of salt and try and teach him how to properly read the posts he replies to.

falemagn:
Quote:
@Mikey_C
It feels like when I was in kindergarden, "teacher, seehund said I'm a bad guy!".

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20885&forum=6&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#332084

Yeah. like "Moderator, moderator, Billt is being naughty"


And...
falemagn:
Quote:
Sucks to be around thin-skinned people.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20579&forum=14&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#326592

So, what's the thickness of your skin right now?

Taking cover...

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wegster 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 22:02:39
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Hannibal_Smith

Quote:

Hannibal_Smith wrote:
@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote:

To this day, I believe the 'bundled with hardware' has been a mistake


It depends what you mean. Selling a computer and system software as a complete package has it's benefits. If I ran Amiga Inc., I'd be selling a small selection of x86 boxes with AOS installed that I knew ran very well, and were completly supported. I might sell a shrink-wrapped OS, but it would only have a small set of drivers that I knew would work well. I think though that a quality tightly-intergated package has more value than the sum of it's parts.

I think the keyword here is 'quality'


Sure, I'd agree, if a low cost, quaility 'device' were available to ship with. I have to deal with 'special' hardware problems now and then at work, and it can be an annoyance to deal with disparate hardware and lack of drivers, so there's some value in 'a single platform,' but not one in which it seems is to be overpriced as well as demanding a seperate license fee from Ainc, to drive pricing up further.

Could you buy something like the GP2X with OS4, at a similar price, I'd agree entirely...but versus the reality to date, I believe they'd be better off not trying to make 'additional' off of hardware, even if it meant selling OS4 for only some specific (but comodoty/available/quaility for $) systems.

_________________
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Hannibal_Smith 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 22:21:39
#184 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2006
Posts: 122
From: Unknown

@wegster

Naturally I'd be designing the northbridge and southbridge myself from scratch based on the experience I gained from an introduction to electronics course I did 5 years ago

Seriously though, the idea would be to have a selection of commodity components put together in a box that I could create good drivers for, throughly test and say I that this works well. The only licence to create Amiga branded computers would belong to Amiga Inc. Anyone could buy a shrink wrapped copy of the OS and build (or even sell) a computer with AmigaOS. But they'd be restricted to the small selection components supported (quality not quantity). I would make this very clear up-front.

Damn, I'm sinking into the fantasy a bit too much there - need some coffee to wake me up.

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NomadOfNorad 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 23:06:16
#185 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2003
Posts: 746
From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

@Carl-S

Quote:

Carl-S wrote:
@Carl-S

I scanned more of your messages. Wow. If the energy I see here could be harnessed, it would move mountains.


What, you mean we're generating enough energy to rival a ZedPM (Zero Point Energy Module)???

Quote:

But, is this energy like sunlight focused through a lens, or is it more like waves on the ocean?


Well, a tsunami can be incredibly powerful and destructive, while at the same time, enough sunlight focussed through a big enough lens could probably punch a hole in the Moon...

Quote:

Let me post a test. I will put it in a new topic. This topic is getting quite long.


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redfox 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 27-Oct-2006 3:22:04
#186 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Canada

@Carl-S

The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership.

I agree. Moving over to the other thread now.

---
redfox

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wegster 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 27-Oct-2006 5:03:20
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@fjudde

Quote:

fjudde wrote:
@falemagn

Quote:
Bill, in all honesty, I'm sick and tired of your continuous attacks, mispresentation of my words and ramblings about me, AROS and whatever else comes to your mind that adds nothing to the discussions.

falemagn:
Quote:
this is the real world, people can be liked and disliked, live with it.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20885&forum=6&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#331943
You actually said "live with it"


Quote:
I hereby ask the moderators to please, give billt a pinch of salt and try and teach him how to properly read the posts he replies to.

falemagn:
Quote:
@Mikey_C
It feels like when I was in kindergarden, "teacher, seehund said I'm a bad guy!".

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20885&forum=6&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#332084

Yeah. like "Moderator, moderator, Billt is being naughty"


And...
falemagn:
Quote:
Sucks to be around thin-skinned people.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=20579&forum=14&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#326592

So, what's the thickness of your skin right now?

Taking cover...


While this is somewhat amusing, as it reads somewhat similarly to some of falemagns own 'tone' in some posts, it's really not contributing anything here.

Let's keep the thread to actual discussion, please, rather than personality clashes (directed at all).

@falemagn -
Please don't respond to the above (quoted text). Let's preferably move along on topic, instead.

Last edited by wegster on 27-Oct-2006 at 05:03 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 27-Oct-2006 5:36:28
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@resle


Quote:

It's a PC because of its hardware architecture: the x86 CPU, the front side bus, etc.etc.

Note that AMD's K8 doesn't have a FSB in a classic sense.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 27-Oct-2006 10:28:55
#189 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@wegster

Quote:

Please don't respond to the above (quoted text).


Did not intend to, although I would have to reply to you that I don't believe there's much in common with those statements of mine quoted above and what I said in this thread, for those quotes were just taken out of their proper context.

Quote:

Let's preferably move along on topic, instead.


Of course, that's what I intend to do.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 27-Oct-2006 11:31:36
#190 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Hannibal_Smith

Quote:

Hannibal_Smith wrote:
@falemagn

Perhaps you could explain your Amiga/Linux mash-up* idea a bit more from a user's point of view.


I believe I've done that in more than one instance already, but I'll try to summarize the main points in this post.

First of all, let's give a couple of definitions. "Amiga", in this context, doesn't necessarily refer to the Amiga as we know it, but rather it's the same "Amiga" as defined by Carl in this very thread. Linux, in the same vein, doesn't necessarily refer to the Linux operating system, but any other underlying infrastructure that gives the same advantages as the ones given by the Linux kernel or OS. It's a concept, the one we're talking about, which can have a multitude of implementations, among which we'd not need to chose by force only one.

However, to make things less abstract, let's consider AmigaOS4 as a possible example of the "Amiga" definition, and let's consider the real Linux as a possible example of the "Linux" definition.

Let's say you are running AmigaOS4 on your AmigaONE. You're using the workbench as a file manager and application launcher, you're using your old 68k applications as well as the new PPC ones, but you're lacking a decent web browser. Everyone and their dogs are using Mozilla or Firefox these days, and you'd like to do the same. Now the situation splits in two.

You could:


  1. alone or in group, port Mozilla/Firefox to AmigaOS. This also implies that all the other software Mozilla/Firefox depends upon needs to be ported to AmigaOS. It can be done, but it's a lengthy, tiresome and resource-hungry process, which in the end will give you a browser that will likely run slower than the same one available on, say, Linux, or crippled in some functionalities, for lack of certain facilities in AmigaOS, like memory protection and virtual memory. For these reasons, it's also likely that every crash of Mozilla/Firefox will bring AmigaOS down.

  2. download a binary for Linux, and all the software it depends upon, install it, run it. You get a fully functional web browser, which works no worse than if it were to be run on Linux, and it will also never bring th whole system down if it crashes.


Mozilla is of course just one example, but there are many more programs that would benefit from the same treatment: all the command line unix tools, for instance, and all the SDL apps, and, generally speaking, all the software that is right now being ported to AmigaOS could be just run out of the box, seamlessy integrated with the rest of AmigaOS.

Last edited by falemagn on 27-Oct-2006 at 11:32 AM.

_________________
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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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Anonymous 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 0:34:42
# ]



! AMIGA (AOS1-4.x) RULEZ !

 
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Fransexy 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 0:44:01
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2316
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Atheist

Quote:

Atheist wrote:
! AMIGA (AOS1-4.x) RULEZ !


You forgot AOS 5.x

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Make Amiga Great Again

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 4:36:35
#193 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Benji

Quote:
I admit its a waste, and XP isnt a solution.

Wouldnt it be easier to install good AV software and ban Internet Explorer and Outlook Express? Arent they the biggest vectors for spyware/adware/virii?

Roll forward a few months/years, there will be someone who will want to take down a room/school/world full of computers if they can. Amiga (on x86 or anything else) doesnt solve that (yet!?) - or only solves it as much as using a Mac.

Security through obscurity isnt a solution.

Two possible solutions come to mind to address this conundrum:

1. Windows XP Embedded Thin clients with Sygate desktop firewall, McAfee AntiVirus and Anti-Spyware with EPO, AppSense Application Manager (Desktop Edition) for a trusted ownership execution environment and AppSense Environment Manager (Dekstop Edition) for desktop management and policy based I/O port control. With the WinXPe flash write filter on, no changes are saved persistently to the flash and the system can be setup to validate the image and refresh the image on the flash with the image from the distribution server if inconsistencies are uncovered. Backend could be Windows 2003 Terminal Services or Citrix Presentation Server 4.x. Another option for thin clients would be SUN's SunRay ultra-thin client solution, but I won't got there.

2. VMware ACE (Assured Computing Environment) for secure, read-only virtual machines running Linux, Windows or other x86 OSes, or possibly read-only Windows XP based Virtual Appliances using the freely available VMware Player.

Can you tell I'm a Citrix and VMware expert? The possibilities are endless with these technologies, and I'm currently offering my consulting services in architecture and engineering around an option 1-like environment for a large (12k seats) client's secure network.

Unfortunately, option 1 is not cheap to implement although it's ROI would justify it, but this may be out for school!

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 5:10:41
#194 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@ChrisH

Quote:
The short version of that is "Amiga is elegant simplicity", but that seems to mean different things to different people - so it might be better if I listed exactly those things I liked the most:

1. Flexibility: I liked the fact that most of the Amiga OS is glued together via shell scripts (which come much closer to real English than any Linux batch file) so that a "power user" can easily re-configure & extend it.

So true.

Quote:
2. Flexibility: Although underused, I liked the fact that ARexx can be used to glue together full-blown apps, or just add additional features (e.g. I added ROT13 to MicroDot-II with a couple of lines of code!)

This is still something that is not anywhere as near prevalent on other platforms as it was/is on the Amiga. I loved the idea that you could in essence construct a much larger and complete application of sorts by glueing various application together through very simple AREXX scripts and with just about every application having easily accessible and documented internal functions exposed through AREXX ports. ActiveX just doesn't come close to this in quite the same way or from the same angle.

Quote:
3. Simplicity: I liked the fact that the Amiga wasn't layers of (backwards-compatible) crust piled on top of each other (like Windows or OS X), so that I can easily understand everything in the system - each OS file has a sensible name, is placed in a sensibly named folder, and has a sensible purpose.

Ah, sensible folder strcutures! The difference between Linux distros and the logic behind the folder structure is just something that I would imagine a person suffering from epilepsy would design during their multiple attacks. But then again, I guess Linux suffers from trying to be too much like the other older Unix variants. MacOSX obviously inheritted this seeing as it's based on BSD, but it at least tried to clean things up a bit from what I've seen. Windows isn't as bad folderwise, but it's also starting to get out of hand.

Quote:
4. Reliability: There is no central registry (stored as one humongous file) that can be corrupted & bring down the whole system. Nor is there any "hidden state" beyond the files themselves, so I can restore the entire system (including OS) just by copying the files back. Probably more could be said on this subject.

Too true. Hidden states and the dreaded registry is something the Amiga and to a large extent most Linux and Unix distros don't suffer from. Not sure about MacOSX regarding this though.

Quote:
5. Easy-to-use and understand: From a more novice-user perspective, I liked that the Amiga left me in control, rather than trying to guess what I want (e.g. automatically bringing the active window to the front, or unexpectedly changing the active window). I also liked the fact the very physical 1:1 relationship between what you saw & what was actually there, e.g. each virtual "screen" seemed to be physically real (it could be infront or behind another screen & could be dragged down to see behind it). Similarly icons were always the actual things, not "shortcuts" or other virtual entities (see the Control Panel of Windows). etc

Again, all too true.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 5:23:32
#195 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@filmamigo

Quote:
Low cost is an enabling factor. Putting a good tool in the hands of many more people.

The other aspect that enables are the applications offered. What is the common theme among early adopters, creative people, people looking for an edge in life and business, and people who enjoy doing new things in a fantastic way: they react to killer applications. These are the people who saw the LaserWriter and said "I can open a print shop." These are the people who saw the Video Toaster and said "I can make a TV show." These are the people who watched the Boing Ball and said "I can do anything I can imagine".

Again, Apple learned this lesson well. Final Cut Pro has sold more Macs to my friends than any marketing campaign ever could.

You can't really predict what the next killer application will be. But you can prime the pump: create a compelling, slick systems, priced to put it in millions of hands, and loaded with tools for them to create cool stuff now, and inspire them to imagine cooler things for the future. When those cool killer apps come along, suddenly "everyone" in that given field will want whatever machine they need to work with/play with that killer app. If the computer system that runs that killer app is cheap enough to be an impulse buy, you have a runaway hit. And you never have to sell a single computer into a corporate data centre. You are selling systems to people and organizations that NEED to do what your system can do.

Thanks for putting into words so eloquently what I've been thinking for the past two years about what made and should again make Amiga appealing to users and dare I say even possibly a small success one day. I would only include to that line of thinking that in order to get that killer app, you need to attract innovative developers to the platform, again through affordable and widely available hardware to run the OS on.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 6:04:57
#196 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@gary_c

Quote:
It's interesting that a large majority of people here voted in support of your definition even though it contains elements that are in direct contrast to significant aspects of AmigaOS4/AmigaOne, etc. that have been central to this web site's purpose. If 80% of people here really do agree that "the CPU topic is no longer relevant," then I guess this site isn't as "pro AOS4" as some have claimed. I suppose the deal is that "right now" -- OK for the last several years in a very long gestation -- the PowerPC AOS4 has been the official way forward. Then farther in the future there will be the processor-agnostic AOS5. Still, any talk of making use of x86 boards in a foreseeable time frame had been, until this thread, quashed since it's outside of Hyperion's vision for the OS. Interesting now to see a break in the clouds here.

I too have found this quite interesting in reading people's responses to Carl's post.

Amazing what a unifying force a person which commands such respect from the community can have on people that normally disagree with each other to the point of hurling insults.

I wish this good feeling would last, but alas, I'm doubtful that it will.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 6:22:13
#197 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Trezzer
Quote:
There are examples of "special" computer packages where it's easy to see that the main purpose of the package is to justify a higher selling cost and increase the benefit for the seller. Unless the hardware is both special -- i.e., has capabilities that commodity hardware doesn't -- and price-competitive -- the package will be compared to more mainstream solutions -- it's difficult to see how it would be sellable.

Or better yet, run Windows, Linux or any other x86 OS through a virtualization layer like QEMU, VMware, or whatever VM software was ever released for the AOS, or access these through Remote Dekstop, which is what I plan to do on the x86 PowerBook I intend to purchase to replace my primary home and business computer system, currently an x86 Toshiba WinXP Pro system.

Your primary system could still be AOS, but with Remote Dekstop and/or VM for accessing Windows apps where needed to fill the gap.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 6:28:45
#198 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@resle

That was great and insightful post. You should post more often.

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weirdami 
fun with typo's
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 6:53:38
#199 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 231
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Quote:
We want schools, families, community orgs, hobbyests, and small businesses to buy into Amiga.


I agree. We want the people that are not so much more hobby than others, but rather those that are the most hobby.

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resle 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 28-Oct-2006 10:28:08
#200 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 483
From: shanghai

@elatour

Quote:
That was great and insightful post. You should post more often.


Not sure if you really mean it or not but.. just in case, thanks ;)
(Yet, probably posting rarely IS what makes one's posts insightful!)

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