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Colin_Camper 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:19:24
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@Shadowolf

Quote:
I can only hope someone has pockets deep enough to make this happen


Maybe Amiga Inc or ACK or both have managed to get subsidy or funding from the semiconductor manufacturer. After all, with the falling interest in PPC Linux and Apple saying bye bye to PPC, the amiga community is the last hope for these desktop orientated processors.

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Shadowolf 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:21:17
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Mar-2005
Posts: 137
From: Germany

@Colin_Camper

Only that these processors are *not* desktop oriented at all.

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ackcontrls 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:22:59
#32 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Posts: 92
From: Unknown

@Shadowolf

On Monday you will see the actual specification for the board. Most designs lately with high ball count need at least 8 layers, some 10....12 isn't a stretch, especially in the telecommunications industry. Also, the ball count at 1156 isn't much higher than the ball count of the Tsi108/109/110, which is only a host bridge. For all the functionality in this chip, the overal ball count is reduced, along with total component count.

It must be the North American "can do" attitude that enables us to accomplish goals that others believe impossible.

Adam

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Fransexy 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:27:14
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Shadowolf

Quote:

Shadowolf wrote:
@Colin_Camper

Only that these processors are *not* desktop oriented at all.


2 GHZ, dual core (and up), VMXunit, 2 MB cache, PCIe controler......What is oriented for? Microwaves oriented? Wake up, please

_________________
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Make Amiga Great Again

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NoelFuller 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:29:13
#34 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@A3000T

Quote:
Bring on the High-End board. I'll buy it if the OS4 development team will support it.


I hardly dare say this but at the back of my mind I've been wondering if Pentti Kouri has a notion that OS4 devs headed by Friedans plus Indian programmer stable might make for accelerated progress sans Hyperion - Amiga Inc conflicts.

Noel

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:29:40
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Shadowolf

As I said, it's not ideal...

If the board didn't support PCI express (like a bunch of existing designs that only support PCI or PCI-X), then it would be impossible. Remember though, Adam says that Amiga Inc want to sell complete boxed systems. There are enough slots in the board you described to add the few remaining pieces to make it into a home computer; no-one said anything about the design being open. Apple has been working like this for ever, and most people don't seem to mind too much (in fact, it allows their software people to concentrate on making good drivers for a small set of cards, rather than mediocre drivers for a large set of cards). Given the time constraints (Amiga Inc saying "this summer" and PASemi saying "Q4"), I suspect Amiga Inc will just cut a deal with PASemi for a few thousand demo boards at a reduced price, get some addon cards for the missing functionality, add a box and PSU and sell it as the Ack-One. Some might call it cheating, I'd call it making the deadline for once

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Shadowolf 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:35:05
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Mar-2005
Posts: 137
From: Germany

@ackcontrls

Quote:

It must be the North American "can do" attitude that enables us to accomplish goals that others believe impossible.


This is not something what can be done solely on motivation alone.
This requires a lot of money to pull thru.

The small scale of the operation is what I see as the main problem.
If you are ASUS or GigaByte or whoever and need to throw a new
Pentium-board at the market you "just" spent 100+k relying on
the expertise of your team that went thru this a couple of times.

But if the target is only in the range of 1000 boards
you have a problem unless you win the lottery.

Still, I would be pleased to see it happen.

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Kicko 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:47:53
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

cant you just wait to monday when the specs are released. this is just mumblejumble ;)

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:48:56
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Fransexy

My hotdogs were cooked with altivec. Mmmm

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:50:09
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Kicko

Quote:
cant you just wait to monday when the specs are released.

No

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Shadowolf 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:51:00
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Mar-2005
Posts: 137
From: Germany

@Fransexy

Quote:

2 GHZ, dual core (and up), VMXunit, 2 MB cache, PCIe controler......What is oriented for? Microwaves oriented? Wake up, please


Applications: "embedded networking", "telekom", "military", "storage" and "pervasive computing"

http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/MPC8641DDLCRFS.pdf

PA-Semi mentions "Enterprise-Routers" and "Modular Storage Platforms"
and yes, "Supercomputing"

Desktop is something different.

Still I would love to put something like this in a tower under my desk.

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 22:59:15
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Shadowolf

Oh, come on. You're splitting hairs here. What would you say is missing for the PASemi 1682M to be used as the basis for a "desktop system"? Just about the only thing I can come up with is "it won't run Windows"

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Jorge 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 23:24:50
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2003
Posts: 657
From: Scottsdale, AZ

@CodeSmith

Quote:
won't run Windows

That's pretty much it. There is no desktop OS out there for that cpu, and thus they won't target it as such. Markteing bubble. That's all. Hardly the performance. Well, I'd like to see some NVidea drivers, though. Cg running on a 16x PCIe 7900GT or even 88xx would rock! ($1500 board plus $800 gfx board ;) But maybe that will be supported thru linux? (otho, nvidea linux drivers are all x86, or are there any ppc ones ?)

_________________
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DrBombcrater 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 23:27:31
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@CodeSmith

Quote:
Oh, come on. You're splitting hairs here. What would you say is missing for the PASemi 1682M to be used as the basis for a "desktop system"? Just about the only thing I can come up with is "it won't run Windows"

There's nothing 'missing' as such, just that the 1682 as a desktop processor looks really poor next to basically any current x86. It's slower, more expensive, and less flexible. Non x86 processors cannot succeed on the desktop to any real degree. PA Semi are not stupid, they're well aware of that fact.

The 1682 is quite clearly designed for embedded use. There are several aspects of the design that are very desirable for embedded use, but are negatives for desktop systems. That's not to say it can't used, just that it isn't a perfect fit.

That said, it's miles better than any other PPC part right now and the obvious choice for a PPC desktop board.

_________________
Who do you serve, and who do you trust? - Galen

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 23:32:24
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@DrBombcrater

Quote:
the 1682 as a desktop processor looks really poor next to basically any current x86


Really? a superscalar CPU, with two cores that can each issue 3 instructions per cycle (out of order), running at 2GHz and with a 1066MHz DDR2 memory controller with 2MB of onboard L2 cache doesn't sound too shabby compared to my Core 2 Duo. OK, so the intel chip may end up being better, but I wouldn't say the PPC chip looks "really poor" next to it.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 05-May-2007 at 11:43 PM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 05-May-2007 at 11:33 PM.

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ackcontrls 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 23:50:23
#45 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Posts: 92
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Nothing is going to make DrBombcrater or ShadowWolf happy, unless they want OS4 on x86. So it's really not worth discussing anything with them.

Adam

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 5-May-2007 23:53:31
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@ackcontrls

Fair enough. I wouldn't mind seeing some benchmarks for that chip though. It looks awesome on paper and I'm sure it's a lot faster than even a 7448, but it would be nice to compare it to a recent Intel chip.

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Jorge 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 0:00:50
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2003
Posts: 657
From: Scottsdale, AZ

@ackcontrls

I'd still like to see a cell based board, though. But the current cell with the XDR is well, not really suitable and the new one with DDR2 (is it 2 or 3) is probably to expensive and not even available. But spu power would be easier to utilize thru a secondary kernel (or kernal extension) then multicore with the current AmigaOS. (and well, north/southbridge would be needed for the cell as well, unless one hooks up a RSX directly to it).
Anyway, PA Sema looks the natural choice beside it.

_________________
AmigaOne XE G3/933/VIA/FM801/R200 (fixed),
G3SE/600/Voodoo3/Sil680/RTL8139/SBLive! (noiseless!)
µA1-MK2/G3/933/R200/CMI8738
XE/G4 (broken 7450/800)

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DrBombcrater 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 0:03:16
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@CodeSmith

Quote:
Really? a superscalar CPU, that can issue 3 instructions per cycle, running at 2GHz and with a 1066MHz DDR2 memory controller (all times 2) doesn't sound too shabby compared to my Core 2 Duo. OK, so the intel chip may end up being better, but I wouldn't say the PPC chip looks "really poor" next to it.

It's more than just performance, although that's an issue. The most recent information I can find has PA Semi claiming the 1682 scores about 1000 in SpecInt2000 @ 2GHz. AMD's and Intel's best desktop parts score roughly two and three times that, respectively. (in x86 terms, 1000 SpecInt2000 means a Sempron 3200 or similar - about £25 worth)

Configuration flexibility is a problem, too. With the 1682 you have to accept the functions built into the chip. If it doesn't provide what you need (not enough PCIe lanes, for example) then you're stuck. It's not like say, and Athlon 64, where you can just pick a suitable hypertransport system controller chip from the wide range available.

The cold truth is the PA Semi design costs more than normal X86 desktop parts, performs worse, and is less flexible. It can't run Windows and even with Linux it takes a hit because of the many x86 binary only drivers out there (ie, NVidia's Linux drivers, among many). So it's never, ever going to get used for a desktop board unless PPC compatibility it essential.

But inside the reality distortion bubble that is the PowerPC world, the 1682 actually looks pretty good. It certainly shows how utterly rubbish IBM's and Freescale's designs are.

_________________
Who do you serve, and who do you trust? - Galen

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 0:06:43
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Jorge

Agree completely. I guess we'll have to wait until Monday to see the complete board spec, but I'm very pleased with the choice of CPU. This is way more than I was expecting, and as I said above, it will at last put amigas back on an even footing with PCs and Macs.

I did a bit more digging into the company, and it looks like its founder was the head designer for the DEC Alpha, widely recognized as one of the best CPUs ever made. This is good technology; all we need now is that their sales people are better than MAI Logic's.

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