@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: @stew This is how things work in Law. Just think of the kind of claims that can made when one party sues the other for divorce.Things are "true" but not "accurate" as they are twisted to make one side look bad.

You are quite right sir! Looks alot like a messy divorce and custody battle. We are learning alot we did not want to about the parties involved.

Quote:

stew wrote: I am confused about the 3.1 and 3.9 source issues. Ben Hermans states Nov 7 2001: "Olaf Barthel and H&P did an outstanding job by cutting down the number of compilers required to compile the OS, cleaning up the OS 3.1 source-code and moving code from ASM to C. Whilst there still are some parts which are in ASM, this is a minority. Olaf also put the entire source-code in to a CVS repository which is a tremendous asset." Did he not have access to these sources at this time?

Well according to documents provided to the court they started negotiating with Olaf at the end of November and signed a contract in December to allow them to use the code. Ben's statement either invalidates those documents or can be written down as one of Bens typical lies to the amiga community.
-Tig

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@stew

Quote:

The point is that the posts show what Ben's idea of what the terms of the contract meant.

If P.T. Barnum were speaking to a crowd of people today about a deal he recently made contractuly with someone I believe you would likely not take him at his word. If Mother Theresa were doing the same, the opposite would be likely i believe, that you would believe her representation to the public is an honest one.

The reason for that is you have enough of a history of observing these people's actions and have enough opinions of others that you can refer to to feel its pretty safe bet you are right about each.

Now, lets try not to have our cake and eat it to. Now having more info over the years and more to have been able to observe, is it possible that what he said to the public, perhaps even probable, had little relation to his actual understanding and belief of the intentions of the clauses in his contract?

I would submit yes.

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Can someone please clarify something for me?

If Amiga Inc do get the OS4 source code from Hyperion and release it on the ACK built hardware do Hyperion make any money from it?

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

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@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote: Can someone please clarify something for me? If Amiga Inc do get the OS4 source code from Hyperion and release it on the ACK built hardware do Hyperion make any money from it?

They don't make money from it. Hyperion only make money by marketing and selling Amiga OS 4.0 themselves.

Hans

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @stew Quote: The point is that the posts show what Ben's idea of what the terms of the contract meant. Now, lets try not to have our cake and eat it to. Now having more info over the years and more to have been able to observe, is it possible that what he said to the public, perhaps even probable, had little relation to his actual understanding and belief of the intentions of the clauses in his contract? I would submit yes.

That is where we differ in opinion. I can see no logical reason why he would lie in that instance when the truth would have served him better. Maybe I am missing something?

Added: This is what gets me the most. All the lieing and half truths by both parties.. Even when they did not lie directly they allowed misconceptions to be perpetuated.
I just think the revisionism of what the community was led to believe as the truth is shameful.

Last edited by stew on 09-Jun-2007 at 08:40 PM.

@Hans

Quote:

@BigBentheAussie Quote: BigBentheAussie wrote: Quote: Can someone please clarify something for me? If Amiga Inc do get the OS4 source code from Hyperion and release it on the ACK built hardware do Hyperion make any money from it? They don't make money from it. Hyperion only make money by marketing and selling Amiga OS 4.0 themselves. Hans

Oh man!! That is *totally* screwed up!!

I've been racking my brain for a decent analogy but none seem complimentary of the situation in regard to Hyperion.

Here goes.....The Pizza Delivery analogy.

Amiga Inc has a pizza shop and hired Hyperion as a pizza delivery boy.
Amiga Inc promised the pizza boy a minimum wage plus tips.
Eyetech, Hyperion's friend, provided the car for Hyperion and expected a share of the money.
Hyperion wasted some time buying stronger boxes for the pizzas because AmigaInc only had old boxes that were crumbling.
The Eyetech car broke down on the way to a pizza delivery and Hyperion was forced to walk. Eyetech can't fix the car, which was falling apart anyway, and ditches it.
Hyperion therefore reached the houses late. In fact over 4 hours late.
That night the AmigaInc Pizza shop changed management and lost track of things.

Should Hyperion keep the pizzas because their car broke down?
Should Hyperion just eat or sell all the pizza because it was a different company yesterday?
Should AmigaInc pay Hyperion for the pizza delivery that is 4 hours late? Is 50 cents too much?
Should AmigaInc just give Hyperion a new car, cause his mate Eyetech couldn't keep his car in order?
Should AmigaInc be understanding of Hyperion when he effectively failed to deliver the pizzas? You can admire the effort in walking the distance but the pizza is not worth much after 4 hours even though it can be re-heated. (Except to starving Amigans.)
Then Hyperion wants AmigaInc to pay for the boxes.

Yeah, I know it doesn't work. Oh well. At least I had fun.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

Not "Too Bad" an analogy..

Except..

Eyetechs Car had a bug/feature in the engine management systems, So the car would need restarting every now & then... Not terminal, but a bit of a nuisance.

It was Hyperion doing the cooking

But...

A.Inc never supplied enough ingredients.

Last edited by The_Editor on 11-Jun-2007 at 03:03 PM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

by Tigger on 9-Jun-2007 14:55:08 Quote: Quote: stew wrote: I am confused about the 3.1 and 3.9 source issues. Ben Hermans states Nov 7 2001: "Olaf Barthel and H&P did an outstanding job by cutting down the number of compilers required to compile the OS, cleaning up the OS 3.1 source-code and moving code from ASM to C. Whilst there still are some parts which are in ASM, this is a minority. Olaf also put the entire source-code in to a CVS repository which is a tremendous asset." Did he not have access to these sources at this time? Well according to documents provided to the court they started negotiating with Olaf at the end of November and signed a contract in December to allow them to use the code. Ben's statement either invalidates those documents or can be written down as one of Bens typical lies to the amiga community. -Tig

Where does Ben Hermans lie in the above statement? As far as I can see he is referring to work of OTHERS that has been done up to that time, being Olaf Barthel and Haage&Partner.
And knowing a fact, is not equal to "have the rights to use it".

Seems pretty clear to me, though.

Quote:

Sneaky wrote: Where does Ben Hermans lie in the above statement? As far as I can see he is referring to work of OTHERS that has been done up to that time, being Olaf Barthel and Haage&Partner. And knowing a fact, is not equal to "have the rights to use it". Seems pretty clear to me, though.

Have you read all the comments from Ben, or just the little bit quoted. Come back after you read the whole thing.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: Sneaky wrote: Where does Ben Hermans lie in the above statement? As far as I can see he is referring to work of OTHERS that has been done up to that time, being Olaf Barthel and Haage&Partner. And knowing a fact, is not equal to "have the rights to use it". Seems pretty clear to me, though. Have you read all the comments from Ben, or just the little bit quoted. Come back after you read the whole thing. -Tig

Not too long ago you insisted that they negotiated with Olaf in October pre the contract with Amiga, you even had a theory about how a date mistake in one contract was completely plausible in one instance, yet not the other. You have since withdrawn that but no one called you out for your lack of studious reading of the provided material. Worse, some have relied on you as you have presented yourself as having done so. And yet when confronted again on another unsupported point you answer this way, when you have shown you are as apt to make a mistake as much as anyone else? If you have a supporting thing to quote, please show us. All of us are apt to miss things given the amount of material. You want to make a point, please support it with something tangible.

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@BigBentheAussie
Quote:

Oh man!! That is *totally* screwed up!!

Don't fret too much about it. I doubt AInc. has any real intention of selling OS4.

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@BigBentheAussie

Except your analogy doesn't work, because Hyperion made the pizza out of their own ingredients from suppliers other than the owner of the shop (a possibly even scarier analogy). Now the FDA is getting involved because of the quality of agreements.

I am really gonna find the judges ruling interesting..

@DonnieA2

Actually, an even closer analogy is:

Amiga Inc owned the pizza brandname, logos and stuff, and the old version of the pizza recipe, but did not have a pizza-oven to bake them in. They commissioned Hyperion to build a pizza-oven in their own bakery, update the pizza recipe to modern expectations, and deliver the pizza to customers once that was done. They were provided with the boxes, but the boxes were flimsy, old, and falling apart, so they had to get new ones from elsewhere. The delivery vehicle, provided by Amiga, was faulty and broke down fairly early on and couldn't be repaired, so they had to switch to delivery by adult-tricycles while waiting for Amiga to scrounge them up another old banger.

It is now some while later, and Amiga has taken them to court and cancelled the contract because Hyperion spent too much money on building that pizza-oven, and oh yes, Amiga claims they're entitled to take the pizza-oven for themselves for less than what Hyperion spent to build it in the first place, and that they violated the agreement by not delivering the pizzas fast enough... nevermind that delivering them depended absolutely on that old banger they originally gave them, and on the fact that Amiga didn't, as they were expected to do, provide them another old banger on a timely basis to replace the first one.

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@NomadOfNorad

Don' t forget, in this analogy.

Amiga the Pizza maker lost access to the recipes for their three most popular kinds of pizza (3.1, 3.5, 3.9). And Hyperion had to go to Amiga's old buddy Olaf who at least had a somwhat modified but close recipe to Amiga Pizza 3.1. So they at least ha something to start trying to bake in the oven.

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@jorkany

Quote:

jorkany wrote: @BigBentheAussie Quote: Oh man!! That is *totally* screwed up!! Don't fret too much about it. I doubt AInc. has any real intention of selling OS4.

I tend to agree with you there. I think they just want the code to implement OS5 from it. I don't know what the technical issues are, but if AInc just compiled OS4 for x86, it would make a damn fine OS5.

p.s. I know it's not that simple but if it was, it would.

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Quote:

Not too long ago you insisted that they negotiated with Olaf in October pre the contract with Amiga, you even had a theory about how a date mistake in one contract was completely plausible in one instance, yet not the other.

No, I said that the contract with Olaf has a date of October on it and not December which is when Hyperion says it was signed, that 100% true. I'm not sure given the other data we have been provided that it was actually signed in October as I originally beleived. It still may have been, but given Olafs tone, I am guessing that isnt true.

Quote:

And yet when confronted again on another unsupported point you answer this way, when you have shown you are as apt to make a mistake as much as anyone else? If you have a supporting thing to quote, please show us. All of us are apt to miss things given the amount of material. You want to make a point, please support it with something tangible.

Just once Fairlanefastback it would be nice for you to have an opinion. You never do, you disagree with everyone but never have an opinion about what really happened. Reading Bens post on the 7th, followed by his complaints at the end of November about not getting the software, I think his original post was technically a lie, if you dont think it was, tell me why, you opinion, that would be a pleasant change.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

Just once Fairlanefastback it would be nice for you to have an opinion. You never do, you disagree with everyone but never have an opinion about what really happened. Reading Bens post on the 7th, followed by his complaints at the end of November about not getting the software, I think his original post was technically a lie, if you dont think it was, tell me why, you opinion, that would be a pleasant change.

The last time you accused me of this I directly answered what you asked was my opinion in my reply to you at the time. So this isn't so. But anyway.

If you want an opinion piece (full of conjecture) from me in general I think that both parties in this case have done scummy things. They started out with a contract but neither side was likely professional enough to properly voice grievances as they came up. Its also my belief early on Amiga did not give a cr*p about OS 4, they thought of it as a bone to throw to us while they worked on DE. As the DE dream started to slip away they became more interested in OS 4. How seriously is a big question mark. While they make a good show of it taking Hyperion to court I find Amiga's purpose as a corporation somewhat suspect. The NYC and WA offices as shown to us in pictures by Cecilia and words by the Seattle Times don't appear to be viable representations of a company doing much that is tangible beyond what they currently do that we can see, which is resell some Windows XP and cell phone games from other firms. Stuff like OS 5 being said it will be better than OS X and that its been worked on for years seems unlikely to me. They have like 50 to 60 people in ADI, yet no software on "coming soon" at Amiga.com seems to get finished ever, no job listing seems to ever change, the link to apply for a job there, always seems to say "under maintenance". What products do they make? And since they can't write an OS as per Bill, what do they do besides collect salaries and cost for another office rent? There are other possibilities of course, but these are definately questions that I ponder in regard to them.

On the Hyperion side Ben seems to have done things that are not right, he seemed to take a little too much pleasure in trying to wear Bill Buck out in court in some silly Amiga vs. Thendic thing. And I believe they are being revisonist on a number of points. I don't view any of that as honorable. I think they have a stronger position in the contract than many people think. If you asked me which is the lesser of two evils I'd likely vote Hyperion at this time,though not by a big margin.

This is why I try to stick to the facts, because its very easy to emotionally get upset at the fact that collectively these companies are holding our OS hostage and collectivlely they constantly take advantage of our nearly undying loyalty to the product itself. Whats it to them to fight for a year, many of us will still be here, ready to forgive and buy. I think they know this almost too well.

But since we are a small group the money being worth it is a question. Being a fly on the wall at Amiga, Inc's accountant or at a board meeting I suspect would be very interesting.

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@Sneaky

Quote:

Sneaky wrote: @Tigger Quote: by Tigger on 9-Jun-2007 14:55:08 Quote: [quote]stew wrote: I am confused about the 3.1 and 3.9 source issues. Ben Hermans states Nov 7 2001: "Olaf Barthel and H&P did an outstanding job by cutting down the number of compilers required to compile the OS, cleaning up the OS 3.1 source-code and moving code from ASM to C. Whilst there still are some parts which are in ASM, this is a minority. Olaf also put the entire source-code in to a CVS repository which is a tremendous asset." Did he not have access to these sources at this time? Well according to documents provided to the court they started negotiating with Olaf at the end of November and signed a contract in December to allow them to use the code. Ben's statement either invalidates those documents or can be written down as one of Bens typical lies to the amiga community. -Tig

Where does Ben Hermans lie in the above statement? As far as I can see he is referring to work of OTHERS that has been done up to that time, being Olaf Barthel and Haage&Partner.
And knowing a fact, is not equal to "have the rights to use it".

Seems pretty clear to me, though. [/quote]

The relevent section of interview dated Nov. 7 2001:


AN: Could you describe the current state of the AmigaOS sources? Years ago, Jeff Schindler claimed that "it's a complete and ugly mess". I read a German Interview with Juergen Haage, where he stated that they cleaned up most of the Kickstart sources and they were able to recompile them in one go. What's your personal experience (or that of your programmers)? How much of the core parts are available in C and can actually be recompiled for PPC? Are there parts that must be rewritten from scratch (e.g. because they're only available as 68k ASM)? Are there any plans to use AROS code for OS4.0 (if neccessary)?
BH: Olaf Barthel and H&P did an outstanding job by cutting down the number of compilers required to compile the OS, cleaning up the OS 3.1 source-code and moving code from ASM to C. Whilst there still are some parts which are in ASM, this is a minority. Olaf also put the entire source-code in to a CVS repository which is a tremendous asset.

We have talked to Aaron Digulla who was very helpful and is generally a nice guy and we have come to an agreement about using parts of AROS if need be.

____________________________________________________________________

You see why I thought he had access at this time?

@jorkany

They can't. Hyperion has the rights to "OS 4" title, by contract.

They would have to rename it or call it OS 5. If the contract holds ( )

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