This is actually a topic I tried to bring to attention in an old (as in one year old) thread by CarlS, but that I believe still hasn't been covered enough.

In the last years we've seen more and more "amiga hardware" popping out, although most of it went unfinished or never properly supported. As far as I understood (I am actually just a classic-amigaist), almost every piece of "amiga hardware" is actually a variant built on the PowerPC architecture. Most of such hardware should be able to run Linux and other *nix OSes.

We've also seen "amiga operating systems". ArOS, MorphOS, AmigaOs 4, and I am sure there are some more I can't recall now. Some are built to run on the PowerPC architecture, some are designed to be multiplatform, there are ongoing x86 project and I believe there's also some "amiga os" that can run on old Mac machines.

So what's an Amiga at this point?
1) "Amiga Hardware, whatever os you run on it"
I find difficult to imagine a box running, say, UBUNTU - and calling it an Amiga
also if the underlying hardware is an A1 or even a true Amiga 2000-3000-4000.

2) "Any machine running an Amiga Os"
Sounds more reasonable, but an OS is still just an OS. Think of Apple: macs are
now standard PCs running MacOsX. And then, which one of the many? Aros?
MorphOs? AmigaOs 4 because it's a bit more "official" in some way? Then
if AmigaOs is ever ported to the X86 platform, any pc out there could be an
Amiga, or not?

3) "An Amiga Os on Amiga Hardware"
Welcome to a mess of possibilities, with hardware X not properly supporting
MorphOs but playing nice with AmigaOs, or AroS refusing to run on hardware
Y and possibly installing on X but with a few limitations, etc. etc.
I can't get any Amiga feeling from this.

So I really need to know from you: what's an amiga? Because I feel like many companies and individual people are just picking the bones of a beautiful corpse and claiming they're carrying on the spirit of that dead body. I see people screaming in ecstasy before AmigaOS 4 and I ask myself: why? People exulting over managing an Mp3 player to work properly, the announcement of a game with graphics from the early 90s, or even a spreadsheet with "brand new functions" which were given as standard back in Excel 95.

I could understand if some old amiga user is just too accustomed to the graphic feeling of AmigaOs or using some particular set of Amiga applications. Wasn't it easier to port both things to any linux distro? Because by the way - people are *paying* for AmigaOs 4, in the age of open, free software. This, too, puzzles me a lot.

As I had the chance to tell before, my 2 cents are that I would have loved to see Amiga come back with a hardware+software combo, strongly tied up - performing, appearing and feeling like an Amiga, and updated to today's standards. Just like Apple did with the iMac to resurrect, and becoming the company that is today.




ps: I am sure there are many inaccuracies in what I said... please try to consider the whole picture and not the (technical) details ;) thanks...

Last edited by resle on 04-Sep-2008 at 02:20 PM.

@resle

Any computer system is based around the operating system it runs. The OS is its "personality". Apple proved this with their move to x86 but retaining the exact same OS. The users of OSX are not interested what CPU their machine is running, so long as they have OSX in front of them when they switch on their machines, they're happy.

For me, Amiga is all about the OS. AROS, MorphOS are all great initiatives, and wholey superb pieces of work individually, but they simply are not Amiga IMO.

Windows users generally don't care if their OS is running on a rotten potato, so long it works (I use that term loosely BTW) when they turn on.

All this fuss about Amiga chipsets and how great it was is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age, when you consider all that technology has been squashed down to an FPGA now, and modern graphics cards make the AGA chipsets look exectly what they are, something from the 80's.

All this is IMO, of course, I don't wish to start any flame wars (although I dare say that won't stop some individuals), so if you have to swear at me, do it to NIL: please :P

Simon

Last edited by rigo on 04-Sep-2008 at 02:29 PM.
Last edited by rigo on 04-Sep-2008 at 02:28 PM.

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Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

@resle

What is Amiga hardware?

8bit planar graphics? whit HAM hacks?
Plaula sound whit max 14bit sound quality
IDE controller whit PIO mode.

I think Amiga hardware was outdated the day DOOM hit the shelfs was it 1993?
Even so we did have the best OS, and we managed whit all kind of hardware upgrade kits 030 / 040 / 060 addons, Cybergraphics graphic card.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2008 at 03:46 PM.

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@resle

The question could be restated in a different context as what is Linux? Linux comes in a variety of forms (OS distributions) and runs on a variety of hardware platforms (x86, ppc, etc.).

In a similar manner, the Amiga comes in a variety of forms (AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS classic, AmigaOS4.x) and runs on a variety of hardware platforms (classic, x86, ppc, etc.). The analogy breaks down at points being that the various Amiga OS's are based on different kernels; however, they all are designed to work/look/act like an Amiga, which is how each has gained a slice of the small following that is Amiga. Each of the varieties of Amiga OSs were started when the future of Amiga was uncertain. MorphOS, AROS, and even pOS began when they could actually have become the "official" AmigaOS. Each OS has stayed around leading people to question, "Will the 'real' Amiga please stand up?" Being that each of the OS offerings is related to Amiga, it may be better to ask, "What does the Amiga family look like?"

Edit: I already know someone is going to give one of the following answers...

1. A mob family.
2. A dysfunctional family.

-The Phantom "?"

Last edited by PhantomInterrogative on 04-Sep-2008 at 02:49 PM.

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@resle

Its an A1000, everything else is for failures. ;P

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@resle

To me an Amiga is a piece of (somewhat specially designed) hardware and software that was made in the Amiga spirit.

This includes, of course Classic Amigas running anything, but also AmigaOne+OS4, Pegasos+MOS, SAM+AROS.

It does however not include PC+AROS or PC+WinUAE or Pegasos+Linux or anything like that.

Minimig also classifies as a kind of Amiga.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I think Amiga hardware was outdated the day DOOM hit the shelfs was it 1990?

Doom was released in 1993, so your are three years off....

Anyway, recall a 030 ran Doom as well as a 386, so what is your point?

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@resle

Amiga is any system which runs Amiga software.

Amiga hardware is hardware with the original chipset. Neither Pegasos, AmigaOne or Amithlon is Amiga hardware. They are PCs with PPC or x86 processor.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@Deniil715

Quote:

To me an Amiga is a piece of (somewhat specially designed) hardware and software that was made in the Amiga spirit. This includes, of course Classic Amigas running anything, but also AmigaOne+OS4, Pegasos+MOS, SAM+AROS. It does however not include PC+AROS or PC+WinUAE or Pegasos+Linux or anything like that.

What if someone made x86 hardware in the Amiga spirit? =P It could be PC+OS4 or PC+Pegasos or PC+AROS....

What defines the Amiga spirit after all? :)

_________________
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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@tomazkid

Yeh but the Most common PC was:

486dx / 486sx, 25mhz, 8mb 16bit sound, and 32bit graphics, 2xCDROM as standard.

486 run Doom at 1x1 pixel resolution 640x480, Amiga1200 run Doom at c2p at 2x2 pixels.

Of course MSDOS and Windows3.1 sucks but thats not the point,
Macintosh hardware was also way better specifications then A1200/A4000, when it came down to Graphics and sound.

The point is that Amiga hardware was never that grate, yes there was a short period in 198x whit Amiga1000, Amiga500, when Amiga was untouchable.

Amiga hardware designers where not following the signals in the market, they where totally blind to 3D games, and modern graphic cards, only one year afer commandore when bankrupt, the Playstaion1 set trend for all game consoles to come back in 1995.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2008 at 04:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2008 at 04:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Sep-2008 at 04:06 PM.

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@itix

Amiga hardware was always built as game console:
standard whit game ports, built in soundcard, BIOS designed to load games.

PS3 / XBOX are boxs that are the most Amiga like I think.

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@rigo

I agree. Although, you can't quite get 'that Amiga feeling' with *anything* running AmigaOS, because it's humbling to know it's running on the hardware that partly made the Amiga what it was and still is, but that's purely nostalgic.

Saying that, the OS is the "personality" as you put it. I sure know I want to see OS4 running on some (available to purchase) modern hardware, just because it deserves to and should do.

For me, running OS4 on my PPC equipped A1200 has made me crave modern hardware. Not because OS4 doesn't run well on it, but because it really makes you see what the OS deserves to run on. OS3.x feels nicely tied to it, but OS4 is aching for something new

So:

Amiga past: OS3.x on my A1200
Amiga new: OS4.x on a new piece of hardware.

The Amiga as a whole: both. It's all about a 'feeling' for me, and OS4 gives you that, with a yearning for the future, more than ever.

Darn, I'm rambling.


Steve

_________________
A1200T - OS4.0,OS3.9: 603e PPC 200mhz,060 50mhz, 256mb ram, FastATA MK-III, BVision, 160gb,20gb HDDs

A1200 - OS3.1: Blizzard IV 030, 64mb ram, 400mb HDD

OS4.x - Flying the AMIGA flag

@Deniil715

So you are saying that the teron boards were built with amiga spirit in mind?. There were built even before the deal with amiga inc and were designed as linux boards, so your point is not valid. Or were they developed during commodore days at a secret research facility?

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Amiga 500 + ACA500plus 8mb + 30gb CF
Raspberry Pi 3b+ and Amibian 1.4
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@NutsAboutAmiga

My A1200 (Blizzard1230IV, 68030 50 MHz, 8 MB Fast, AmigaOS 3.0) runs Doom (ADoom -timedemo demo3 -nosfx) at 9.6 FPS.

My notebook NoteStar NP-740 (80486SX 25 MHz, VGA, 4 MB RAM, MSDOS 6.22) runs Doom (doom.exe -timedemo demo3 -nosfx) at 9.9 FPS.

I play Doom on both machines in 2x1 two steps from fullscreen.

ADoom is very fast (and DoomAttack even faster)!


What is an Amiga?
My A1200? Yes!
My A500? Yes!
My brother´s WinUAE box? No
My notebook? No (although I have nice backdrop with Amiga logo...)

Amigas are (were) only computers from Commodore, Amiga Technologies (etc.) and Eyetech. Samantha will be an AmigaOS compatible computer (I hope!).

If somebody uses AROS as his main OS, then his computer is AmigaOS compatible too.

@Deniil715

I have thought many times of a thread like this. I may even have started one years back. What is an Amiga? What makes an Amiga what it is? What is the Amiga spirit?
You wont get a straight answer on anything, but you'll always have someone telling you what it isn't.

What an Amiga used to be was a hardware and software platform, unto itself called Amiga.

Elements of the community, having grown up in that era, cannot fully rid themselves of the notions born in the excitement of the microcomputer age of the 80s and early 90s. These were the microcomputer platform wars, where the computer you used was practically a statement of your personality, that you were different or special, the underdog, the clever person, that you weren't following the herd. Your chosen computer's capabilities were a reason for pride, like baracking for a sporting team. Computer brands were once evangelised by users with religious zeal(and Linux still doesn't come close). In many a geeky schoolyard argument you were on Team Amiga, Team Atari, Team Apple or Team PC (etc).

The Amiga was for the geeks amongst us, for the public at large remember the Amiga as the most kick ass console of the era, which just happened to have a keyboard. To the public it was the merely the successor to the C64 toy and was predominantly for playing games. The OS really only coming to the fore for those users/computer enthusiasts who spent considerable money on upgrades. So for the public at large an Amiga that doesn't play the most kick ass games of the moment is not an Amiga, or rather doesn't live up to the name. But I can get past that, because afterall, I am a computer enthusiast and not joe sixpack console player.

Ok... so I'll say an Amiga is a branded hardware-software combination that runs an OS reminiscent of the AmigaOS that we grew up with. The clue here is what is bolded, "branded" and "reminiscent", for surely AmigaOS must evolve in functionality for todays tech savvy users as well as have the right to call itself an Amiga(which unfortunately we need Amiga Inc for).

Without the computer being branded an Amiga, you don't truly have an Amiga, because you can't SELL it as an Amiga. You can't call the Peg/Efika with MorphOS an Amiga, without getting sued. Even AROS had to(voluntarily) change its name.

When I see a mass produced computer branded as an Amiga with an OS reminiscent of the way an Amiga should work, preferably with backwards compatability, then I will consider that an Amiga. Even better if you somehow get the Commodore name on there as well, because it is all about sentimentality.

Then that will be something the majority of us can all rally behind, regardless of its naysayers, faults, issues or incompatabilities. We'll surely get a lemon, so be prepared to make lemonade. The users will inevitably make it whatever they want it to be afterall, adding or stripping away layers to make it what their perception is of the Amiga way.

It could well be based on x86, and it probably needs to be to be competitive, but it should be sold like Macs are, as a hardware/software combination, because that is what it was known for all along. And why not?..... it works for Apple, and the Amiga users who are true enthusiasts, will have to build it up to being in Apple's league technically someday. Even getting .01 percent of Apples sales would be enough for a sustainable software market.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

I go for the number 2. AmigaOS running on any HW

@resle

1. ... unfinished or never properly supported...
Good summary of the current Amiga and company.

2. ... if AmigaOs is ever ported to the X86 platform, any pc out there could be an Amiga, or not?
Not! Where's the silicon rectifiers from CSG?

3. ... by the way - people are *paying* for AmigaOs 4, in the age of open, free software. This, too, puzzles me a lot.
Why pay, we're back to 'unfinished or never properly supported'!

4. ...whole picture...
Commodore owned the chip technology --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology
That's what makes an Amiga an Amiga in my book definition; that's dead and gone.

5. I would have loved to see Amiga come back with a hardware+software combo, strongly tied up - performing, appearing and feeling like an Amiga, and updated to today's standards...
In reality, this will never happen, guaranteed! Have a nice dream...

ps: I am sure there are many inaccuracies in what I said... please try to consider the whole picture ...
It's called history and evolution and money. I thought the AmigaONE was the technological remedy for all this 'system fallout'. However, Amiga Inc. and their bad management left it all in a semi-abandoned state for the law courts to decide who-does-what-to-whom-and-when. Isn't that a shame -- the system abandoned the users!

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@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: I think Amiga hardware was outdated the day DOOM hit the shelfs was it 1990? Doom was released in 1993, so your are three years off....

It was December 10, 1993, to be exact. I got a successful download at about 10:00 pm CST.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

Quote:

Deniil715 wrote: To me an Amiga is a piece of (somewhat specially designed) hardware and software that was made in the Amiga spirit. This includes, of course Classic Amigas running anything, but also AmigaOne+OS4, Pegasos+MOS, SAM+AROS. It does however not include PC+AROS or PC+WinUAE or Pegasos+Linux or anything like that.

What about the fact that I have used my WinUAE to create projects?

and some of these are directly Amiga related projects.

You are forgeting one of the most important elements of What IS Amiga

namely, the person using it..whatever "IT" happens to be. IN my experience "Amiga" is how a person solves a problem. That may sound very vague, but I was able to get that "Amiga Feeling" when I used Amithalon, WinUAE, MOS and OS4. Even AROS......

and I get a different feeling using linux, although I like linux.

Amiga is a tool - a really great tool. not perfect, but it gives us a warm feeling. And it's let me do things in a way that nothing else can.

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@resle

Ahem, Seriously, an Amiga to me is any computer that runs AmigaOS or compatible... but there lies the problem, what is AmigaOS (or compatible)?

To me, it has to run all previous software that runs on AmigaOS 3.x, so to me I can't really count AROS in with that definitition... I really like AROS, i'm still hoping 68K support comes, But it's not really going to happen is it?

I suppose what most people here count as an Amiga is really a custom HW and SW solution like the 1000,1500,2000,3000,4000,500,600,1200 etc & AmigaOne/Pegasos

However I'm still not sure... The Pegasos definitely is as useful as my other machines but you can't really call it "Amiga"... Thats obviously just in legal/trademark terms though, technically it is, as it comprises of a custom HW + SW...

Last edited by DBAlex on 04-Sep-2008 at 06:02 PM.
Last edited by DBAlex on 04-Sep-2008 at 06:01 PM.
Last edited by DBAlex on 04-Sep-2008 at 06:01 PM.

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