Xena/Xorro Ideas or HowAbouts

I guess we have to start somewhere on possibilities for our new hardware.
So just post your idea or what you may think would be a cool use for an
event driven hardware card for Xena/Xorro.

I know we lack full knowledge of how the Xmos chip Xena works at this early
stage, and how exactly Xorro is wired to the motherboard, but perhaps some
of the hardware gurus in these areas could jump in with a simple yes, no, or
hmm(?) to the suggestions.

I'll give the ball a little push with something I'd like to have, and has
always been missing on the Amiga.

Hardware MIDI. Basically, a hardware solution to play/record MIDI events
using soundfonts converted to .wav format and played through the computers
onboard sound. The .wav is only a thought as some other format may suit
the purpose better. In otherwords

1. TiMidity in hardware.

I wonder what it (the X-mos chip itself) can do better then the main CPU with it's 2 cores....

68k emulation ? No, the main CPU would do it faster.
Midi ? Would it realy be a better solution then using the CPU ?
Some GFX related stuff ? No, I think a good video card could do it faster.

Probably very usefull in conjunction with the Xorro bus. For robotics, and as a modern 'clockport' and so on....

Ah wel... Like you said, we don't realy know how it works yet I'v got my hopes up though....

Martin

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@Mechanic

On the XMOS, let us have ECS/AGA emulation at the hardware level. For the Xorro, let us have an expansion board that has an Amiga floppy interface (Catweasel) and other Classic Amiga ports. We could have the newest Amiga, and have the ultimate emulated Classic Amiga at the same time... of course, I am sure that older programs will still be run in some sort of "sand box."

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@PhantomInterrogative

I thought 68k emulation with 'real' ECS/AGA chips wouldn't work 'cause of timing isues ?
Also why 'waste' the Xorro slot on classic ports while you can also create a PCI card with them on it ?

Come to think of it... What can the Xorro port do that PCI can't ? I think the answer would be in/output of the X-mos chip.

So a complete classic Amiga (inculding the 68k) with real ports, would that be feasable ? A-la Minimig...

Ah, I don't know....

Last edited by Metalheart on 16-Feb-2010 at 09:18 PM.

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When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
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@Metalheart

Quote:

So a complete classic Amiga (inculding the 68k) with real ports, would that be feasable ? A-la Minimig...

Sure, that could be done with PCI card aswell, wasn't there some Siamese System card like that? (don't know if it was finished, but remember reading about it)

But in any case, what's the point? I got the impression that the main cpu would be fast enough to run emulation "all in software"?

In addition, I have recently read comments about how many people no longer use any 68k software (but only native ppc software) so would it really be worth to spend development time on something like that? Would that many people prefer it that much compared to full software emulation? Hardware or software, it's still emulated.

And floppies? I'd assume by now most people would be happy for having gotten rid of them finally (in a way would be interesting to know how many of my old floppies still actually work, but can't bother about it, as I have all as adf's anyway)

Anyway, what do we know about the chip? I think I read somewhere that it's integer-only. Also, how is it programmed? Can any program "request" part of code to be ran on one core, or does it have to be programmed all at the same time? And how is it connected to the rest of the system? (RAM/CPU/PCI/sound etc.)

@Mechanic

Midi is a good idea.

SCSI port to connect our older drives and transfer things from classic machines, or just to continue using these drives.

IDE port for same purpose as SCSI.

PCMCIA port for Squirrel SCSI etc. continued usage.

Floppy port for reading in disks to ADF or whatever.

Parallel port. I haven't yet found a USB parallel port that gives me an LPT port on my PC laptop for my FPGA board needs, they're all printer specific things. Is this just a driver thing and an Amiga driver would allow the same USB dongle to be a proper parallel port for non-printer targets?

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@Jupp3

Yes, I totally agree...
So what's the strength of the XMOS/XORRO combination ?

Can't wait to see it running

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Theres a time to live and a time to die
When its time to meet the maker
Theres a time to live but isnt it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying

@Metalheart

Quote:

So what's the strength of the XMOS/XORRO combination ?

It seems to be there for someone clever that has a new idea that is not available in PCI form already, which seems maybe easier for most of us to work with than an FPGA chip.

What about a Zorro or video port adapter just for kicks?

I guess I'm stuck thinking in classic Amiga terms, but that would be a rather limited set of examples of potential for this thing.

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Im puzzled as to why its considered difficult to generate a video signal. Looking at the specifications for NTSC, PAL, SECAM, VGA, they can be handled by a couple percent variation on a quad speed colour crystal. No need for different PAL, NTSC, the overall data rates, screen, synch pulses, porches etc differ by only 0.4% or so. Thats whats always puzzled me about Amiga chipsets, why they used a screen rate, instead of the colour clock so that audio IO could be done synched to clocks in teh blanking pulses etc.

WhatIm looking at, which is just on the point of being useful with the Xcore.. is its 10 nanoseconds switching speed means it can generate complex pulses that are 10 feet long of electromagnetic radiation. I want to carefully synchronise in the picosecond range several chips, up to very large numbers, in order to start creating beat frequency interactions that sum to a very high strength at one given point. This requires the induvidual phases to shift during transmission so that the pulse travels far slower than light, and I beleive is possible to be brought to a dynamic halt state.

According to the Tokyo University acoustic forcefield design, and power density electric field strengths, this should give measureable effects. We can alread ymove dust around with simple single frequency lasers, so this should have a greater effect over a larger area.

Dont beleive me?. .Have a look yourself before someone patents it and sits there waiting for their licence fees as the musroom clouds rise.

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@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote: Anyway, what do we know about the chip? I think I read somewhere that it's integer-only. Also, how is it programmed? Can any program "request" part of code to be ran on one core, or does it have to be programmed all at the same time? And how is it connected to the rest of the system? (RAM/CPU/PCI/sound etc.)

Go here http://www.xmos.com/support/documentation and read XS1 Ports Specification.

And keep in mind that open ideas have a way of provoking others to think, dream, do.

Last edited by Mechanic on 16-Feb-2010 at 11:28 PM.

@Metalheart Quote:

I wonder what it (the X-mos chip itself) can do better then the main CPU with it's 2 cores....

Anything that requires:
1. Low-latency response to I/O events, or
2. Extremely accurate/reliable input measurement & output generation (at the nanosecond level).

The second item gives me the idea of some kind of cheap oscilloscope. Xena could perhaps pre-process the signal & extract extremely high-resolution info of high-frequency signals. The limit would be Xena's internal memory, unless a plug-in card provided some.

Quote:

Midi ? Would it realy be a better solution then using the CPU ?

Yes, if you wanted a simple plug-in card. Maybe it wouldn't be any better than an existing PCI card, but I don't think it'd be any worse either.

IMHO someone should design a "generic I/O" Xorro card that you can get different cheap connectors for. Then someone could buy a "MIDI connector" for it, and with a bit of software... volia! a MIDI card! Change the connector & the software, and you'd have a different kind of card...

Quote:

Some GFX related stuff ? No, I think a good video card could do it faster.

Assuming your video card has TV out, and assuming it can generate low-resolution video like old computers/consoles, which I suspect not. Otherwise Xena might be useful for generating "authentic retro video". Just an idea, dunno how plausible it is.

Last edited by ChrisH on 17-Feb-2010 at 12:40 AM.

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@ChrisH

Quote:

The second item gives me the idea of some kind of cheap oscilloscope.

Corin Rathbone's NetScope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_rxEcsORyU

@billt

Quote:

Parallel port. I haven't yet found a USB parallel port that gives me an LPT port on my PC laptop for my FPGA board needs, they're all printer specific things. Is this just a driver thing and an Amiga driver would allow the same USB dongle to be a proper parallel port for non-printer targets?

I like the parallel port idea, too, but for you use with classic samplers: AMAS, DSS8+, et al. Since the Amiga and PC parallel ports are not electrically identical, an add-on that provides two physical ports or a safe automatic detection and switching mechanism (possible?) would be sweet.

Re: USB <->parallel, is the IEEE 1284 mode emulated by the USB adapater configurable? The adapter may actually force all connected devices to appear as IEEE 1284.4 (DOT4) printers, i.e. the adapter itself is of the USB Printer device class instead of the USB Communications device class that might be used to implement a complete IEEE 1284 port. Anyone know enough about USB to say? Chris Hodges frequents Amiga.org. Might be a good place to ask.

Last edited by Trev on 17-Feb-2010 at 01:09 AM.

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@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: @Mechanic Midi is a good idea. SCSI port to connect our older drives and transfer things from classic machines, or just to continue using these drives. IDE port for same purpose as SCSI. PCMCIA port for Squirrel SCSI etc. continued usage. Floppy port for reading in disks to ADF or whatever. Parallel port. I haven't yet found a USB parallel port that gives me an LPT port on my PC laptop for my FPGA board needs, they're all printer specific things. Is this just a driver thing and an Amiga driver would allow the same USB dongle to be a proper parallel port for non-printer targets?

Have you tried LPT-to-ExpressCard?

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Feb-2010 at 06:41 AM.

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@thread

Some/most of these might/should be possible:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27379&forum=33


One thing to consider is that xcore could be put to control a card that use the (inline) PCIx slot to transfer the actual data.

Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Feb-2010 at 09:56 AM.

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@thread

PortablE wrote
--------------------------------------------
1. Low-latency response to I/O events, or
2. Extremely accurate/reliable input measurement & output generation (at the nanosecond level).

The second item gives me the idea of some kind of cheap oscilloscope. Xena could perhaps pre-process the signal & extract extremely high-resolution info of high-frequency signals. The limit would be Xena's internal memory, unless a plug-in card provided some.

Quote:

Midi ? Would it really be a better solution then using the CPU ?

Yes, if you wanted a simple plug-in card. Maybe it wouldn't be any better than an existing PCI card, but I don't think it'd be any worse either.

--------------------------------------------


Not just a Midi card. Rather a MIDI-able event driven interface.

1. If a hardware solution to converting sound-fonts to sound chip playable format
data could be devised this would (in custom Amiga chip fashion) relieve
the CPU of this task. Yes, it would require additional chips (Xmos?) but
Xena is programmable. It should also provide for MIDI surround sound (5.1).

2. Game writers could use a common sound standard triggered by events. Which
could also start/stop other game events. Think WII.

3. Live performers may want to trigger a backing track or video clip in relation
to their playing speed or style. No more keeping up with the beat or trying
to signal someone to push the right button.

Why MIDI?

Midi is a mature standard. Such a card can be plugged in and at least used to
play music.

Midi is as the name implies Digital. Even though standard Midi operates at
31250Hz (which is dividable from Xenas 100MHZ ) higher or lower frequencies
are programmable for different uses. MIDI notes are called events.

The interface card could have a single MIDI connector programmable for either
in or out. Or, a provided cable/dongle could be used in conjunction with a
standard (9, 25, whatever) connector (Think Game port). MIDI calls for Opto-
isolation, which is both good and not depending speed.

Sound fonts can be tailored for special effects and either included with a
game or program or put into a Amiga sound font library available for many
uses. And that does not mean games would HAVE to use them.

Connecting a joystick/controller which has a Xmos chip inside would give
a programmable device that could interact in various ways and even allow
it to be modified on the fly.

Another thought.. If X1000 could run 2 copies of AOS, each on it's own graphics
card and monitor then a two person game, each with his own view and sound, might
be possible. (I'm not really a gamer, freecell, sokobon, etc.)

KimmoK wrote
------------------------------------------
One thing to consider is that xcore could be put to control a card that use the (inline) PCIx slot to transfer the actual data.

------------------------------------------

Bridgeboard? Produce on one core, record on the other. Game? Shoot on core1
guy drops dead on core2. All tied together by Xena/Xorro + card.

Well, gotta start someplace. Maybe X1001 will have 2+ X/X.