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TheDaddy 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 8-Jun-2011 23:07:15
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4489
From: Quattro Stelle

@stevieu

>>We love you.

I think I do too...is this weird?

Edit: I meant Karlos not you stevieu, in a "you are great Karlos, we love you!" way...oh forget it just digging a massive hole.

Last edited by TheDaddy on 08-Jun-2011 at 11:09 PM.

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samo79 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 2:28:17
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3347
From: Italy, Perugia

@Karlos

I have a question altrough i'm not sure if you can do somethings or if the problem is 3D specific.

Is it possible to fix all that annoying artifacts/bugs on WarpOS games under OS4 ?

I'm using a Radeon 9250 on my Sam and i have many problems, for example WipeOut 2097 have a strange black shadow below the ship, some textures on the game will be corrupted and so on :-/

Sometimes i have similar problem also playing FPSE and many other WarpOS games

But the main big issue are the freezes, quite all WarpOS games are affected to that kind of problem, (almost on my Sam Flex, on AmigaOne they seems a bit more stable)

Any idea ?

Thanks in advance

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kas1e 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 8:29:08
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3159
From: Russia

@karlos
Quote:

there is a really irritating and long lived bug somewhere (not necessarily in the driver) that is causing textures in VRAM to get crapped on, particularly in low VRAM situations


Btw, as i know, Hanz already add some fixes to the warp3d , to avoid problems with texture corruption in low VRAM situations (avail for beta-tester, so you should have access to as well). Dunno through if it was fixes in warp3d.library itself, or only in the warp3d driver for radeons.. As you have a1 with radeon, maybe you also can check if the same low-vram-texture-corruption happens on radeon with latest beta or not (and if no, then its fixes in drivers, but if yes, then its not fixed at all then..)

Should to say, that its very-very nice to read normal and real answers with technical details about warp3d problems from you. I feel that after all your realized ideas with warp3d , everything will works same fast as on morphos.

At least, for me was pretty strange to see that Q3 works so fast on classic machines , in compare with my peg2/1ghz with radeon9250. What make me think, that just p2 driver are good now, but radeon9xx0 are not. Hope you will have motivation to works on it as well :)

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Mrodfr 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 18:31:26
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2007
Posts: 1396
From: French

@karlos

First thanks for your work on the permedia2 warp3D drivers

Your work, your access to the warp3D source and your knowledges on warp3D you have give hopes also for AOS4 users

For completing what kas1e or amidog,... have explained, there are well known bugs and problems on warp3D.library 68k V4.0 and on the 68k video drivers also (voodoo, radeons,...).

Most of them are explained on wazp3D archive or possible to be given to you by alain thellier or kas1e.


We all dream if you could, at least, update warp3D main library by fixing the known bugs and problems and do a new AOS4 version of warp3D.library (for sure update the 68k version is great also for sure- I have just a 68060/50+voodoo3 .

The benefit is for you to have your permedia2 driver working better and more reliably and maybe some of the problem you have on the permedia2 drivers will be resolved by fixing the main warp3D.library.

The other benefit if to increase the speed and stability of warp3D.library for all AOS4 systems. That could allow to have more 3D ported release.

For sure, this is just a step between and improved version of warp3D and the new Gallium/Mesa port for AOS4 we will surely have, one day, on AOS4.


For sure, all the stuff explained before just give you more work to do on warp3D.library but It's possible that just fixing bugs and problems on warp3D.library won't use too much of your free time (problems are listed and guys like kas1e could help you about the problems and bugs with explanations).


I hope you think now that spending some free time for checking and fixing the old know problems and bugs on main warp3D.library are finally a good idea for all the AOS4 systems and for your permedia2 warp3D drivers.


Thanks again for your work

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HammerD 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 18:35:26
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 895
From: Ontario, Canada

@Karlos

Can you back port the Warp3D Radeon driver for 68k ? :)

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kas1e 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 18:55:47
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3159
From: Russia

@HammerD

Quote:

Can you back port the Warp3D Radeon driver for 68k ? :)


Something make me think, that whyle its technically very possible, its still will not be done because of Hyperion politic about non-supporting and non-worring about 68k stuff anymore (and for me, its right , if we take in account that they in interest to bring all the users to os4).

Its the same as with mui3.9. Its just matter or legal issues to not have os4's mui3.9 on os3.


@mrodfr
Quote:

For sure, this is just a step between and improved version of warp3D and the new Gallium/Mesa port for AOS4 we will surely have, one day, on AOS4.


I think that for now will be 100% better to have fast working warp3d. Because when gallium3d/mesa will be released (years), it will have bugs (100%, and even 101%), on which, will need to works, which will need to fix (and its again years of waiting).

So, for me at this point (while all that idea with gallium3d and mesa sounds right and good), better to have fixed warp3d in terms of bugs and increasing perfomance, or at least 25-30%.

Last edited by kas1e on 09-Jun-2011 at 06:58 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 09-Jun-2011 at 06:56 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 9-Jun-2011 21:44:18
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 1923
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@HammerD

Quote:

HammerD wrote:
@Karlos

Can you back port the Warp3D Radeon driver for 68k ? :)


What I can do and what's in my remit to do may not be the same. I wouldn't mind having a go though.

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olegil 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 10-Jun-2011 10:52:55
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5886
From: Work

@TheDaddy

You're walking a fine line with a username like that saying stuff like this

@Karlos

Apparently we now got the answer to the street talk question "who's your daddy". I feel for you, man

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Karlos 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 0:39:19
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 1923
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@samo79

Quote:

samo79 wrote:


I'm using a Radeon 9250 on my Sam and i have many problems, for example WipeOut 2097 have a strange black shadow below the ship, some textures on the game will be corrupted and so on :-/


Yeah, I have WO2097 and have the same issues on my R200. It basically looks like a bug in the support for alpha blending. It's on my todo list along with quite a few others. I've been very busy finishing one day job and walked straight into the next last Wednesday. This will be the first weekend off I've had in a month so I might get the chance to investigate.

One of the more annoying problems to deal with is supporting older applications that do naughty things whilst trying to refactor driver code for better performance. It was disappointing to see just how many old apps were broken because they relied on poking into structures for which there are perfectly good API calls. The few CPU cycles they saved in doing so is nothing compared to what they end up losing if a more efficient strategy for rendering is hampered by having to constantly check for the changes they may (or may not) have made.

In an ideal implementation (at least ideal until we have an alternative 3D system), the Warp3D.library and drives would be made a lot stricter insofar as the API must be adhered to the letter and would be unit tested. Then supporting older WarpOS applications and whatever workarounds are needed to do so when a stricter library is in force would be put into the Warp3DPPC.library emulation - even if it required creating a surrogate set of structures to be poked by older applications and passing that data down into the proper driver via the correct methods. I like this as an interim approach as it keeps any dubious hacks out of the main driver and in the emulation support. However, I don't have any access to the WarpOS/Warp3D emulation source, so it's not a likely prospect.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 2:22:46
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5563
From: Unknown

@kas1e

Quote:

Something make me think, that whyle its technically very possible, its still will not be done because of Hyperion politic about non-supporting and non-worring about 68k stuff anymore (and for me, its right , if we take in account that they in interest to bring all the users to os4).

Its the same as with mui3.9. Its just matter or legal issues to not have os4's mui3.9 on os3.

i love this harsh honesty of yours. but i think you realize yourself that the attitude you describe is exactly what puts many people off.

edit: anyway not that i care so much. looks like i have moved over to aros after all.

Last edited by wawa on 11-Jun-2011 at 02:23 AM.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 3:44:27
#71 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 497
From: Unknown

@wawa

Just for the record: Hyperion has no license for MUI for 68K.

So you are obviously barking up the wrong tree.

Backporting Warp3D drivers to 68K is certainly not a priority at all considering the amount of functionality requested by users of AmigaOS 4.x.

These legitimate requests from paying customers (including those that have upgraded to AmigaOS 4.1 for Classic) take precedence over any 68K backporting.

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samo79 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 3:55:20
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3347
From: Italy, Perugia

@Karlos

First of all thanks a lot for your reply, i asked many time on forums about my WarpOS problems (since 2009 almost), don't remember how many time i ask but i'll never get any "usefull" reply, so i'm very happy to know somethings more and explained with such technical words

Quote:
Yeah, I have WO2097 and have the same issues on my R200. It basically looks like a bug in the support for alpha blending. It's on my todo list along with quite a few others. I've been very busy finishing one day job and walked straight into the next last Wednesday. This will be the first weekend off I've had in a month so I might get the chance to investigate.


Some times ago i asked Joerg (the author of the WarpOS library) and AFAIK he say that graphical corruptions on Wipeout 2007 (and expecially shadow bug) was caused by some Radeon incompatibility, he say that on Voodoo card there is no problem, obviously i can't be able to test this solution as i think i can't be able connect any Voodoo card on my Flex, but this explaination didn't convince me too mutch expecially when such problems are not visible on Wipeout 2097 running under MorphOS + Radeon GXF cards

Also on Sam there are new problems such freeze that are not present on the AmigaOne machines, (almost they don't happen so often as on Flex)
Speed also is a problem, not to mention all options that need to be deselected on many games (see WarpOS.library 16.41 game compatibility doc on OS4Depot) ... well there are many things to check you know (also quite all WarpOS games)

Quote:
In an ideal implementation (at least ideal until we have an alternative 3D system), the Warp3D.library and drives would be made a lot stricter insofar as the API must be adhered to the letter and would be unit tested. Then supporting older WarpOS applications and whatever workarounds are needed to do so when a stricter library is in force would be put into the Warp3DPPC.library emulation - even if it required creating a surrogate set of structures to be poked by older applications and passing that data down into the proper driver via the correct methods. I like this as an interim approach as it keeps any dubious hacks out of the main driver and in the emulation support. However, I don't have any access to the WarpOS/Warp3D emulation source, so it's not a likely prospect.


Well even if i'm not an expert i though about similar solution ... i know and (as you say) no time on you and many other things to solve before but would be really awesome if someone on internal team can give you the access of the Warp3D/WarpOS source codes even just for check it better

It's always annoying to have a not-working module (WarpOS) expecially after 2 or 3 years of OS4 usage

Aniway again thanks a lot for reply and good luck !

Last edited by samo79 on 11-Jun-2011 at 03:56 AM.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 5:53:16
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5563
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

just for the record: im usually not barking let alone at trees.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 6:03:03
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5563
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

ah, and by the way since you have nothing against backporting w3d radeon driver to 68k and karlos basically expressed his willingness (not being an os4 core dev, whose time would be too precious for that, i take) this might be a nice proof of integrity.

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SimplePPC 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 7:28:37
#75 ]
Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 93
From: Unknown

@wawa

Who sais Karl is not a core-dev ? :)

I took my years of asking and nagging and a lot of goodwill from Karl to get the Permedia2 driver done, and imho OS4.1 users are more important to us then 68K. They paid for a product and if Karl has time/motivation to work on 3D i prefer it to be for current generation not the past generation.

Anyway, cant you ask all those 'professionals' who always complain about 3D on OS4 to make a better 3D system ? :)
Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Hyperionmp

ah, and by the way since you have nothing against backporting w3d radeon driver to 68k and karlos basically expressed his willingness (not being an os4 core dev, whose time would be too precious for that, i take) this might be a nice proof of integrity.

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Wizzard_o 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 8:33:46
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Sep-2004
Posts: 683
From: UK, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Solar System, Alpha Quadrant, The Milky-Way, Universe. 1.1.1.3.44.HP

@wawa

Quote:
just for the record: im usually not barking let alone at trees.


Then why post on an OS4 topic, PeeCee fanboy...

Wizz.

Last edited by Wizzard_o on 11-Jun-2011 at 08:34 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 10:00:50
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 1923
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@samo79

Quote:
Some times ago i asked Joerg (the author of the WarpOS library) and AFAIK he say that graphical corruptions on Wipeout 2007 (and expecially shadow bug) was caused by some Radeon incompatibility, he say that on Voodoo card there is no problem, obviously i can't be able to test this solution as i think i can't be able connect any Voodoo card on my Flex, but this explaination didn't convince me too mutch expecially when such problems are not visible on Wipeout 2097 running under MorphOS + Radeon GXF cards


The bug is probably in the R200 driver, there are other bugs in there, some of which I've fixed (W3D_DrawTriStripV() for example, rendered fans instead, likewise support for byte-based V4 vertex colour formats).

You shouldn't compare Warp3D on OS4 to the emulation on MorphOS when trying to identify where a problem lies. They work very differently. In MorphOS, Warp3D is an emulation layer wrapped around an already complete 3D subsystem. That emulation layer can contain all the odd workarounds and bugfix logic it needs without any new "fixes" causing problems for the 3D subsystem itself. In future, Warp3D itself will doubtless be a wrapper around a more complete 3D system too, at which point direct comparisons will be more useful/

However, at present. Warp3D *is* the 3D subsystem for OS4, at least for now. Care has to be taken when making changes to the main library to support an application that may have done something improperly. This is why in my ideal scenario, OS4 native warp3d apps would be updated to a strict Warp3D standard and all the workarounds required to support the old WarpOS/Warp3D apps would be moved into the Warp3DPPC.library.

For several reasons I'd rather get drivers closer to the API expectation first then worry about dealing with older titles that have issues. As it happens, I spent quite a lot of effort trying to get the exhaust trails in WO2097 to render properly - only to discover that it is impossible without breaking the rendering in other WarpOS/Warp3D titles. I got it working in the end, although you may have to set different ENV vars for different titles.

See here

Excuse the long and boring waits, I left the game to run a rolling demo as can't play it with one hand ;)

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 11:12:48
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5563
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC
Quote:

@wawa

Who sais Karl is not a core-dev ? :)

my appologies if he is.
Quote:

I took my years of asking and nagging and a lot of goodwill from Karl to get the Permedia2 driver done, and imho OS4.1 users are more important to us then 68K. They paid for a product and if Karl has time/motivation to work on 3D i prefer it to be for current generation not the past generation.

premedia is quite a past generation as well, quite as past as 68060. so this argument isnt valid. however karlos may do whatever he likes. i am sure not going to make demands of him.
Quote:

Anyway, cant you ask all those 'professionals' who always complain about 3D on OS4 to make a better 3D system ? :)

there was a struggle to improve w3d, that gained some results, but without source code only tweaking assembler the progress and its pace was somewhat limited. luckily aros has a better solution at hand. it might be available for 68k at some point.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 11:16:38
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5563
From: Unknown

@Wizzard_o
my comment was adressed at kas1e, who has some sort of humour. i dont have anything to say to you.

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Wizzard_o 
Re: Hyperion Blog update....
Posted on 11-Jun-2011 11:32:13
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Sep-2004
Posts: 683
From: UK, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Solar System, Alpha Quadrant, The Milky-Way, Universe. 1.1.1.3.44.HP

@wawa

Nothing to say? Well that's a first!

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