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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  System Freeze
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PosterThread
Cass 
System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 12:21:46
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2003
Posts: 472
From: Athens, Greece

It happens suddenly and it`s unexpected : It freezes the whole system, you cannot move the mouse or light the Caps on/off!
The system recovers after a while or many hours later (depends on what caused the freeze).
I`ve never experienced such a behaviour on 3.x , but it`s common on OS4.
Maybe it`s ADOS library, or WB itself. Is this something that will disappear with a newer OS version or is it an "OS feature"?

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Boot_WB 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 12:25:18
#2 ]
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Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@Cass

OS version? Hardware config? Installed 3rd party software running? These things may be helpful to anyone trying to diagnose your problem.

Since the majority of users haven't reported this issue, it seems likely that it is related to your particular hw/sw setup.

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kas1e 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 12:32:05
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Cass
Quote:

or is it an "OS feature"?


Yep, just problem of the OS. The same happens and with MOS from time to time, and more offten with AROS. Single user space and so on

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KimmoK 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 12:34:26
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5056
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Cass

I've had similar vefore update 3 on sam440ep. For me it seemed to be the usb stack loosing all i/o. Have you tried plug-unplug keyboard/mouse?

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Cass 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 12:40:28
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2003
Posts: 472
From: Athens, Greece

@Boot_WB

Right, I thought it`s a common problem.
It`s system freeze, not a DSI error.

My config is SamFlex@800, OS4.1.4 .
Last time that happened I was filtering the YAM folders for dupplicates. I noticed the HD led blinking (rarely though) so I kept myself away from reseting the machine (fearing a corrupt FS later). Many hours later it was ready to go as if nothing has happened. The frustrating thing is that meanwhile it`s unusable.

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Boot_WB 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 13:26:06
#6 ]
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Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@kas1e

I've rarely had a system freeze (as described) under MorphOS (Mac mini/1.5GHz/64MB VRam). Maybe two or three times in three years or so. I've had other lock-ups, but not freezing the mouse pointer.

eg I have a couple of 1TB USB drives which are dodgy (click of death) but still useable most of the time. Occasionally, if the drive locks up entirely during a read operation, this leads to a locking of all mounted devices rendering the system inaccessible and requiring a reboot.
Similarly, mounted SMBFS shares can lead to a lockup of mounted devices when trying to access a no-longer-accessible share (eg when a laptop with a mounted share has gone into standby).
In both cases, the mouse pointer remains responsive.

I certainly would be concerned if this were a regular problem, seemingly at random, leading to a total lockup. The OP suggests that this is happening regularly (such that the problem would be recognised without even needing to know the HW config).

In my experience (daily usage) these types of total lockups (leading to mouse-pointer freezing) are extremely rare. Consequently, I'd look for a buggy hw or sw reason rather than accepting it as an inevitable part of using an Amiga-compatible system, or a natural result of lack of MP.

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AlexC 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 13:27:11
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 1283
From: City of Lost Angels, California.

@Cass

The only way to know for sure what goes wrong is to look at the serial debug output, either from the internal buffer using e.g. 'dumpdebugbuffer RAM:SomeFilename' and look at it with a text viewer, or via a serial terminal if you have it on before the freeze happen and your debug output is configured to go to the serial port in uboot or using 'kdebug "console=serial"'

Otherwise it's mostly guesswork.

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Hypex 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 13:42:43
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8722
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Cass

I find that if I am low on VRAM the system can suddenly grind to a halt.

Other times my mouse or KB freezes ams it looks like the input device just crapped itself or the PS/2 driver did. At times I can plug in USB devices that work while the PS/2 ones stay dead.

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Fab 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 13:53:52
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Similarly, mounted SMBFS shares can lead to a lockup of mounted devices when trying to access a no-longer-accessible share (eg when a laptop with a mounted share has gone into standby).


For this particular case, you can just break-c the related smbfs instance and everything will come back to normal (but it's annoying, sure).

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 14:11:06
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Cass

The only way to debug a freeze is to use a null modem cable.
(Unless you can press CTRL + AMIGA + AMIGA)

Quote:
I`ve never experienced such a behaviour on 3.x , but it`s common on OS4.


Well back in the old days it was common to get red guru meditation, you don't get that anymore.

If there is bug in a applications rendering routine that uses Picasso96 the computer can lockup, because when you lock a bitmap, no other part of display can render until the bitmap is unlocked.

Back in the old days, you did not need to lock BitMaps.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Jan-2012 at 02:12 PM.

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thinkchip 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 14:41:49
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1082
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@Boot_WB

I had a similar lockup while using SMBFS a couple of days ago (with update 4). I shut down the Windows computer being shared and the uA1 locked up. The mouse moved but I couldn't click anything. Maybe if I had waited a while it would have come back. I don't know.

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Framiga 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 14:48:10
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jul-2003
Posts: 2211
From: Unknown

@Cass

Quote:

Cass wrote:
@Boot_WB

Right, I thought it`s a common problem.
It`s system freeze, not a DSI error.

My config is SamFlex@800, OS4.1.4 .
Last time that happened I was filtering the YAM folders for dupplicates. I noticed the HD led blinking (rarely though) so I kept myself away from reseting the machine (fearing a corrupt FS later). Many hours later it was ready to go as if nothing has happened. The frustrating thing is that meanwhile it`s unusable.


try to understand if these freezes happens during heavy HDD transfers. What filesystem are you using? Have you got these kind of freezes with older updates as well?

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Xenic 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 15:51:47
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1213
From: Pennsylvania, USA

@Boot_WB
Quote:
Since the majority of users haven't reported this issue, it seems likely that it is related to your particular hw/sw setup.

Really? I just did a forum search for the words "system freeze" here on AmigaWorld and got over 41 thousand hits. I didn't even bother trying to search "system lockuup" but I'm sure you wuld get some hits on that too. I think it's pretty common but in most cases, not that frequent. Most of the ones I've had recently were USB lockups and not complete system freezes. The PS2 input on my A1 was a lot less susceptible to failures that USB input (which is all we have on a SAM).

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kas1e 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 16:09:23
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Xenic

I also was surprised by this

Quote:

Since the majority of users haven't reported this issue, it seems likely that it is related to your particular hw/sw setup.


I think everyone who use aos4 for real, have and freezes, and system-lockup in one or another way. For me personally that almost not happens when i just plainly use something which already tested and works without bugs, but as soon as i starting to run something new, or to do some code, or trying to play with settings harder , its pretty offten can lead to freezes/lockups.

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hotrod 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 16:59:03
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2761
From: Stockholm, Sweden

@kas1e

I've noticed this recently because of a broken hard-drive but never because of anything else that I can recall. It has been because of either a broken PSU making harddrives loosing power or a broken harddrive.

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K-L 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 17:46:52
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1133
From: Oullins, France

@Thread

It happens in very rare conditions here (mostly when MUI-OWB eats 100% CPU). And the mouse is frozen on the screen for a while.

I've found that if I hit AMIGA LEFT + ALT LEFT, it make the mouse come to life again.

I do not really know where this comes from. It's not a complet system freeze (CPU Docky still working) but a mouse freeze.

Moreover, this happen on my AmigaOne with PS/2 mouse.

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Boot_WB 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 17:57:33
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@Xenic

Well, that's down to a borked implementation in boolean searches on AmigaWorld.net's search box.
Searching for "freeze" yields 1422 matches (the first 15 results of which are for this thread).
Going back as far as 2007 yields around 10 theads.

I haven't -recently- (ie since update 4.1.4) seen a major thread with many users demanding to know when 'all the random total locukups' will be resolved.
In fact, I rarely see anyone describing such lockups:
Quote:
It happens suddenly and it`s unexpected : It freezes the whole system, you cannot move the mouse or light the Caps on/off!
The system recovers after a while or many hours later (depends on what caused the freeze).

except under rare circumstances, usually leading to a bug-report being filed for a reproduceable issue.

Since I don't currently own an OS4.x compatible machine, I can't comment to its stability, but I certainly do not get the impression that such lockups are inevitable and frequent. The OP implies that this is a fairly common occurance.

Enlighten me: are you saying that in your experience such system freezes as described by the OP are a normal part of using OS4.1.4?

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Spectre660 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 18:20:39
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3569
From: Unknown

@Cass

For me the most freezes have been caused during Screenblanker activity or with dockies running from Amidock.
By not running screenblanker and not having any dockies runing in Amidock things are quite stable for me.


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OldFart 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 18:24:57
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2916
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@hotrod

Quote:
I've noticed this recently because of a broken hard-drive but never because of anything else that I can recall.

Call yourself lucky. Sometimes I have lock-ups over 10 times a day. For me the most prominent ways to halt the system (no GR, mind) is to start a compilation RIGHT after having saved a file. This is a very common situation when developing a program: you modify a file save it and start compilation (by double-clicking the 'makefile' icon). It looks like the filesystem has not returned from his quest yet and fails to handle the concurrent situation properly.
The other way is using OWB for a prolonged period of time: it locks up more often then not.

Before you ask: A1 with all of its limitations enabled.

OldFart

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number6 
Re: System Freeze
Posted on 8-Jan-2012 18:26:29
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9889
From: In the village

@K-L

Quote:
Moreover, this happen on my AmigaOne with PS/2 mouse.


Which again probably happens because PS/2 is interrupt driven while usb is task driven. Relevant to our A1s anyway...

@OldFart

Quote:
Before you ask: A1 with all of its limitations enabled.


That's probably the nicest way anyone has stated that. heh.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 08-Jan-2012 at 06:28 PM.

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