@SpaceDruid

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Why is it that you use this word regarding Cameron? Surely the only ones crusading are the ones signing your petition?

Cameron is the one trying to change the law, C4M supporters want the status quo, therefore it is HIS 'gay agenda' crusade.

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@BigD

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Cameron is the one trying to change the law, C4M supporters want the status quo.

Oh why didn't you just say so in the first place! Francis Rossi is a friend of mine.


(In case you missed it, a "crusade" is a religious war. The words you are looking for are "his iconoclastic gay agenda" since he is attacking established beliefs and not fighting on religious grounds. One thing I hate more than bigotry, is ignorance. Some would argue they are the same thing.)

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@SpaceDruid

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SpaceDruid wrote: @BigD One thing I hate more than bigotry, is ignorance. Some would argue they are the same thing.)

I too used to be ignorant (or was it ignored, think it's the same thing) anyway I was one of them at one point in time until I was born...

I don't mean "born again" or any of that nonsense, I mean born the first time I was born as I can't recall ever being born before then, though I do sometimes get a strange feeling in me stomach when I visit certain places that make me somehow think I've been there before...

It usually turns out I had been there before but just forgot but other times it's just the strange food you get when you go to far away places (like England, the place where the Engls live) and then that usually just turns out to be wind...

Anywhoo, happy to say I'm neither ignorant nor ignored any more (least I don't think so, hard to tell as most folk don't seem to notice me) but whatever I am I'm happy with me lot and I suppose at the end of the day that's all that matters, well to me anyway, don't suppose it matters to anyone else but you never know and just in case it does or doesn't that should at least clear that up...

Drat, I came here to post something now I can't remember what it was, might have been important and could've changed the world (or not) but now it's gone, lost forever in the voids of me mind, oh well, think I'll just stare at the ceiling now...

Oh look a spider doing Status Quo impersonations...

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@BigD

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You are now rewriting the history books now are you? That's very '1984' of you! William Wilberforce, a Christian spent the majority of his life on his calling to abolish slavery,

I wish it was as easy as rewriting the history books. While 1 Christian may have been trying to abolish slavery the Southern Christians in the United States were using the bible to support it's establishment. And later as blacks were working for a full vote used religion, again, to support discrimination. Which this dichotomy holds as an example of how morally ambigous religion really is.

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Nazi soldiers were fascists reminiscent of the white supremacists in the Klu-Klux Klan

Yes the Nazi's were fascists. They were also mostly Lutheran with a smattering of Catholosim and lead by a Catholic who the church never bothered to excommunitate. Funny you should mention the KKK. I hadn't bring up Christian terrorists . So Thanks for the help there on a big miss.

Christianity worsened the AIDS epidemic. And it appears to have supported the Black Plague. "Since many equated the Black Death with God's wrath against sin, and cats were often considered in league with the Devil due to their aloof and independent nature, cats were killed in masses. Had this bias toward cats not existed, local rodent populations could have been kept down, lessening the spread of plague-infected fleas from host to host"

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I think you'll find it is African Witch doctors that mutilate genitalia.

And Jews and, at least in the USA, Christians have a well established history of support and encouragement of cutting the tip off people penis.

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Despite this Christian Aid organisations are the biggest single factor in easing suffering in the world today.

Strangely because it appears God is helping Tim Tebow win Football games instead of feeding the people he put on the earth. Afterall the dude is supposedly all powerful but appears to not be able to conjure up foor or a printing press to give people money to buy food.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2012 at 06:03 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2012 at 04:16 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2012 at 03:18 AM.

@BigD

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t instead this 'equality' obsessed local authority decided Christians should not be allowed to serve as registrars.

No they didn;t. They decided that as the ones paying the wage they decide what the terms and conditions of employment are, and that they couldn't justify giving one favoured employee the right to dump unwanted work on to a colleague. The problem is that your favoured minority have ruled the roost for so long that you think you have a right to protected special status, and see equality as inherently evil.

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While we're on that any suggestion that Adolf Hitler was a Christian because he stated he was a 'Catholic' is pathetic.

I wasn't the one who invoked Godwins law, You were the one who said "the Nation prayed for deliverance from the Nazis in the darkest days of World War 2 and God answered us." Incidentally the words "Gott mit uns" on the German troops belt buckles translate to "God is with us" so whose side was your deity actually on?

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437,209 and counting. So where's the mystical petition that is pro-redefining marriage that represents 98% of the UKs population?

As I have already explained to you, the job of a politician is to do what is right. Cameron noticed that there was a section of the population being put at an unfair disadvantage under the current definitions, so he is going to amend those definitions. Since the redefing is going to take place I have no need to take any further action.

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Stop trying to nullify the importance and magnitude of the C4M petition - IT"S HUGE!!

It's less than 1%, and is a minority
On the rest of this paragraph of small minded bigotry.


"AS I'VE ALREADY STATED THERE ARE ONLY AROUND 480,000 HOMOSEXUALS IN THE UK AND LESS THAN 45,691 OF THEM CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THIS ISSUE TO SIGN A PETITION TO SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION!!!! I'M GUESSING IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL TO HOMOSEXUALS SO WHY DO THE PROGRESSIVE LIBERALS GIVE A HOOT? GIVE UP DAVE CAMERON."



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Cameron is the one trying to change the law, C4M supporters want the status quo, therefore it is HIS 'gay agenda' crusade.

Yes indeed "christians" once again want to maintain the status quo of inequality for minorities, as long as their interest group remains at the top of the pile. How big does a minority group have to be, or how bad the discrimination before "christians" start to care?

Last edited by Nimrod on 15-Apr-2012 at 11:26 AM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 15-Apr-2012 at 11:25 AM.

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@Nimrod

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As I have already explained to you, the job of a politician is to do what is right. Cameron noticed that there was a section of the population being put at an unfair disadvantage under the current definitions, so he is going to amend those definitions.

What unfair disadvantage are they being put under? They can't use the word 'marriage' to describe their Civil Partnerships even though they already have the tax and inheritance advantages and that's it!!! Hardly 'votes for women' is it?

This is about destroying marriage because the nuclear family will always be something that the homosexual lobbyists neither value or wish to encourage.The number of homosexuals who will sign up to this will be miniscule, cost the country millions to change hundreds of statutes and actually discourage heterosexuals from getting married as it will undermine marriage culture. This simply isn't worth it just to 'prove a point'!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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This is about destroying marriage

This assertion has absolutely no evidence to support it. Since you know that there is no evidence to support your assertion then it becomes a deliberate lie.

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....and actually discourage heterosexuals from getting married as it will undermine marriage culture.

Again do you have any evidence to support your assertion, or are you spreading malicious lies again?

You keep claiming that giving people equal rights is an assault on the status and stability of my marriage, but you cannot specify how. You are part of a small but very noisy minority that once upon a time was able to dominate the majority of the population, but no longer have that authority. Your loss of power is not unfair, nor is it undemocratic. It is in fact, evidence of progress.

_________________
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@BigD

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and actually discourage heterosexuals from getting married as it will undermine marriage culture. This simply isn't worth it just to 'prove a point'!!

Depending on the year used for the calculation the UK has a 42-48% divorce rate. Nothing the gays do are going to have a more deterimental effect than what already exists in the UK.

@Nimrod

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Again do you have any evidence to support your assertion, or are you spreading malicious lies again? You keep claiming that giving people equal rights is an assault on the status and stability of my marriage, but you cannot specify how. You are part of a small but very noisy minority that once upon a time was able to dominate the majority of the population, but no longer have that authority. Your loss of power is not unfair, nor is it undemocratic. It is in fact, evidence of progress.

Here come the facts;

Spain:birth certificatees
Same-sex marriage was introduced in 2005. Just a year later it was announced that "father" and "mother" would be removed from birth certificates and replaced with "Progenitor a" and "Progenitor B" instead.

Netherlands: 3 way relationships
Holland was the first country in the world to legalise same-sex marriage in 2001. In 2005 three-people relationships were given legal recognition through "a cohabitation agreement".

Mexico City:temporary marriages
In 2009 Mexico City introduced same-sex marriage, and already politicians there have proposed two-year fixed term marriages. Instead of divorce, the two-year marriage is not renewed.

Massachusetts, USA:marriage cerificates
In Novemeber 2003 a Massachusetts court said same-sex marriage had to be legalised and gave six months for it to be introduced. In response, the State Department of Public Health changed the standard marriage certificate to read "Party A" and "Party B", instead of "husband" and wife".

These are real concerns based on past implementations by other countries. Where's your positive outcomes from this social engineering?


And by the following...

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You are part of a small but very noisy minority

..I'm guessing you mean Christians, however, it is already clear that a wide range of different people support the current definition including amongst many others, Christopher Biggins an homosexual man, Feminist Julie Bindel; a homosexual woman, Milo Yiannopoulos; journalist, my parents (both non-Christians), many MPs (including the majority of Conservatives) and average work-a-day family people who don't want to see a cherished institution mangled and destroyed by jobsworth 'equality think tanks' and vociferous lobbyists thinking they're being progressive when in fact nothing is new under the sun!!

Last edited by BigD on 16-Apr-2012 at 12:00 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@BigD

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Here come the facts;{SNIP} These are real concerns based on past implementations by other countries. Where's your positive outcomes from this social engineering?

Erm, you just listed titles on a form. Do you really think people are going to start calling their parents as Progenitors? Are you that daft? Or worse, do you assume we are?

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..I'm guessing you mean Christians, however, it is already clear that a wide range of different people support the current definition including amongst many others,

No, you know full well he didn't mean Christians. A number of Christians have posted in this thread that they have no objections. The small but very noisy minority don't represent any group other than themselves.

You've claimed many things in this thread. Nothing has stood up to scrutiny. Not your scaremongering, not your bigotry, not your idiotic examples of how this will destroy everything. All this thread does is allow you to spew out your vile opinions on anyone that doesn't follow your "ideal lifestyle".

If your lifestyle is such a shining example that we should all follow, why is it that you are the most bitter person I've ever known? How can your version of life be better than my own. I am not full of hate and intolerance, I don't go out of my way to interfere in things that won't affect me, based on some twisted version of morality.

You really are just a sad bitter old man. This people, is what happens when you hide your problems behind a book and don't confront them. You sound to me like you have been forced into a lifestyle based not on your own morality, but someone else's. You are not one of those that claim to have been cured of homosexuality are you? It would explain so much.

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@Thread

Just read Charlie Brooker's article on the Grauniad website.

In no way whatsoever reminding me of my previous post, he writes

"It must be awful, being a homophobe. Having to spend all that time obsessing about what gay people might be doing with their genitals. Seeing it in your mind, over and over again, in high-definition close-up. Bravely you masturbate, to make the pictures go away, but to no avail. They're seared onto your mental membranes. Every time you close your eyes, an imaginary gay man's imaginary penis rises from the murk, bowing ominously in your direction, sensing your discomfort. Laughing. Mocking. Possibly even winking. How dare they, this man and his penis? How dare they do this to you?

Obviously you can't fight the big gay penis in your head. It has no physical form, so you can't get a grip on it, much as you'd like to. You'd love to grab it and throttle it until it splutters its last. That might bring you closure. But no. So you do the next best thing. You condemn homosexuals in the real world. Maybe if they could just stop all this "being gay" business for 10 minutes, you'd get some respite from that scary headcock. It might shrivel away completely, leaving nothing behind. Except maybe a nice bit of bum.

No, dammit! Forget I said that! No bum either!"

Can't imagine why I immediately thought of this thread when I read that. Heh. Anyway, read the article. It's yet another case of immoral outrage by groups that claim to talk for us all.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 16-Apr-2012 at 02:41 AM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 16-Apr-2012 at 02:38 AM.

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@BigD

Your 'evidence to support your assertion' included Quote:

Here come the facts; Spain:birth certificatees and USA:marriage cerificates Netherlands: 3 way relationships Mexico City:temporary marriages

Now certainly there will be one-time costs to change a flew documents. Marriage and Birth Certificates are good examples of spending that will cost a bit. Though the request was a demonstration from you on the 'equal rights is an assault on the status and stability of my marriage' - neither of these items are.

As for Netherland and Mexico City, no one is asking for those type of items in the UK. Nor are those items mandated by legalzing homosexual marriage. So, if you included costs there you need to back them out. And since they aren't required of gay marriage they can't be criticisms of gay marriage either.

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Where's your positive outcomes from this social engineering?

Changing marriage to allow blacks and interracial couples to marry in the USA was one big factor in promoting people out of slavery. While the races still aren't quite equal it was one step along the journey.

What I find interesting in the USA is the are called the Bible Belt is noteably worse in a number of quality of life measures. Sure they may be #1 for Jesus worship. Though this area in the USA with the highest divorce rate, highest single mother rate, youngest age of mother birth rate, highest teen pregnancy rate. About the only thing they're slightly better on is STD rate, though that's within the error boundary so we can't claim they're better but close enough.

Strangely the 'liberal coasts' where divorce rates are lower are also the area where homosexuals can be the most open. So if you want positive outcomes? - Massachusettes the State in the USA with the lowest rate of divorce. #1 for lowest rate of divorces. This state also has passed and allows same-sex marriage.

@BrianK

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Changing marriage to allow blacks and interracial couples to marry in the USA was one big factor in promoting people out of slavery. While the races still aren't quite equal it was one step along the journey.

I fail to see how people's sexual activities are comparable to racial/gender equality in the voting and legal systems. Marriage is about far more than putting a smile on Elton John's already grinning face! The comparison is flawed! There is no proof that people are born homosexual and if 'gay genes ' exist there is not a specific one but a collection of contributing factors. This does not negate the fact that children without strong father figures are far more likely to think of themselves as 'homosexual' and fall prey to the propaganda of the 'gay community', finding an acceptance that was absent from their own father!! This more than any other is the experience I see from the 'broken' lives of people struggling with homosexuality. Are telling me that the antics of Louie Spence from Pineapple Studios is anything more than a charade to mask a highly confused and wounded persona?

It's logical that the 'homosexual lobbyists' would would want to lash out at marriage especially if their own married parents were dysfunctional or divorced and ruined their formative years! These are not reasons to devalue or destroy marriage because a lot of them are failing. We should encourage marriage through increased benefits over and above those offered to single mothers and Civil Partners. If your going to enter into social engineering at least do it to the benefit of society as a whole rather than for the detriment!

_________________
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@BigD

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I fail to see how people's sexual activities are comparable to racial/gender equality in the voting and legal systems

The issue is larger than the legal system. The issue is societial. Like many other minorities homosexuals have been mistreated and held back from equality due to their difference. Being a known gay was, not too long ago, a death sentence. You obviously use computers - check out Alan Turning's history and treatment from society due to him being gay.

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This does not negate the fact that children without strong father figures

A great arguement you make against divorce and single woman parents. If I may ask are you in support of outlawing single female parents and outlawing divorce?

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Are telling me that the antics of Louie Spence from Pineapple Studios is anything more than a charade to mask a highly confused and wounded persona?

Don't know about that particular case or even who that is so I can't comment. Though I can comment that we do indeed find ~45% of straight marriages end in divorce. So it's not like the records are particularily good on the satisfaction level there either.

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If your going to enter into social engineering at least do it to the benefit of society as a whole rather than for the detriment!

Again you asked for proof that allowing homosexual marriage doesn't bring with it the destruction of straight marriage. I presented you the case in the USA - a state with same-sex marriage has the lowest percentage of divorce rate in the USA. Seems to me this is fairly indicative that what you are claiming as a detriment isn't the case.

You hadn't commented on the evidence you asked for that same-sex marraige doesn't impact straight marriage. In the USA the 2 states with the lowest rates of divorce per population are also states that allow same sex marriage. I doubt there's any impact ot gay marriage on your straight relationship. And since NONE of the states that allow homosexuals to marriage on the top half of worst divorce rates it seems that allowing gays to marriage may be a positive impact.

@BrianK

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And since NONE of the states that allow homosexuals to marriage on the top half of worst divorce rates it seems that allowing gays to marriage may be a positive impact.

Maybe Massachusetts has a lower rate of divorce because less people actually get married. It's marriage rates per 1,000 capita seem quite low at 5.6 in 2010 compared to Bible belt states such as Texas with 7.1 and Kentucky with 7.4.

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@BigD

Can you clear something up for me? Are you saying that homosexuality comes about because Gays didn't have strong father figures? You are saying they are connected?

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@BigD

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..I'm guessing you mean Christians,

It would be a good guess if christians had a monopoly on arrogance, ignorance,bigotry, and plain stupidity, but they don'tIs seems however that as low as my opinion of christians may be you have a worse view of them.

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I fail to see how people's sexual activities are comparable to racial/gender equality in the voting and legal systems

It is not their activities that matter here, it is their right to carry out those particular activities within the bounds of a stable long term relationship on an equal footing with the majority of the population.

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I fail to see how people's sexual activities are comparable to racial/gender equality in the voting and legal systems

How right you are! The longevity of my marriage is not a matter of chance, but the expression on Reg Dwight's face has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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It's logical that the 'homosexual lobbyists' would would want to lash out at marriage especially if their own married parents were dysfunctional or divorced and ruined their formative years!

Nice assertion, but have you any evidence for your accusation or is it yet another lie. Do you know as an absolute fact without guessing that no homosexual was ever born and raised in a stable, warm, loving family.

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We should encourage marriage through increased benefits over and above those offered to single mothers and Civil Partners

Or to put it another way, you want to wind back the clock, increase the inequality, and return this country to the dark ages when bishops held the power of high low and middle justice over the peasantry, and people like Matthew Hopkins were in charge.

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If your going to enter into social engineering at least do it to the benefit of society as a whole rather than for the detriment!

What detriment. None of the changes proposed will weaken or in any way threaten the security and stability of my marriage, therefore there is no detriment. If your own relationships are so shaky that the appearance of happiness in other people can be a detriment may I sugget that you try a little harder to be a little more caring in your dealings with others. It will pay huge dividends.

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@BigD

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Maybe Massachusetts has a lower rate of divorce because less people actually get married. It's marriage rates per 1,000 capita seem quite low at 5.6 in 2010 compared to Bible belt states such as Texas with 7.1 and Kentucky with 7.4.

I think your question is what is the not the divorce rate per capita but the divorce rate per marriage in those states? Here is one Divorces per marriage study

Mass turns out to not the best but fairly close to from the best. Mass is a 1.7% rate. Texas is a 2.2% rate and Kentucky is a 2.6% rate. Which means the divorce rate per marriage is better in Mass than those other two states still.

Viewing this not much has changed it seems 4 our of 5 same-sex marriage states are better than average. And still the Bible Belt ranks the worst.

@BrianK

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I think your question is what is the not the divorce rate per capita but the divorce rate per marriage in those states? Here is one Divorces per marriage study

Interesting study. HERE are the stats I was looking at. I doubt homosexual marriage is going to be the main factor of influence here but it's productive to debate this, especially considering the downward trajectory of the content of some other posts on this thread, some no more than brainless abuse.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Can you clear something up for me? Are you saying that homosexuality comes about because Gays didn't have strong father figures? You are saying they are connected?

This paper seems quite honest about the development of homosexual tendencies. At least the author is looking at it from a scientific stance rather than a rabid 'gay agenda' one.

Article

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(3) That for whatever reason, he recalls a painful "mismatch" between what he needed and longed for and what his father offered him. Perhaps most people would agree that his father was distinctly distant and ineffective; maybe it was just that his own needs were unique enough that his father, a decent man, could never quite find the right way to relate to him. Or perhaps his father really disliked and rejected his son's sensitivity. In any event, the absence of a happy, warm, and intimate closeness with his father led to the boy's pulling away in disappointment, "defensively detaching" in order to protect himself.

Just to clarify for you haters out there, NARTH's mission statement is as follows;

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We respect the right of all individuals to choose their own destiny. NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality. As an organization, we disseminate educational information, conduct and collect scientific research, promote effective therapeutic treatment, and provide referrals to those who seek our assistance. NARTH upholds the rights of individuals with unwanted homosexual attraction to receive effective psychological care and the right of professionals to offer that care. We welcome the participation of all individuals who will join us in the pursuit of these goals.

Last edited by BigD on 16-Apr-2012 at 09:15 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios