@BrianK

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I fully agree with you that skin color has no relation in that aspect. What does have relationship is the offensive discrimination againt people who have slightly different traits than the majority. As you stated people shouldn't be judging people by their use of their genitalia. The way we get there is by extending the same rights to people independent upon use of the genitalia.

Due to homosexual already having the same rights as marriage under the institution called a 'Civil Partnership', the way we get there is to steer away from the LGBT 'PRIDE' culture (which by the way has hijacked the 'rainbow'; the symbol of God's promise never again to flood the entire Earth, for its dubious use in fostering 'gay pride').

How about we offer a professional service to help confused youths who know homosexuality is wrong due to a guilty conscience but struggle with feelings of same-sex attraction and want to talk to someone about it without public care workers being forced into encouraging them into the 'homosexual lifestyle'! There's a start. Oh yeah and put the brakes on the redefinition of marriage to avoid a whole generation of confused youth! No-brainer really.

Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 12:17 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 12:08 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 12:08 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

Obviously slavery is not the ideal but since it existed in Roman times and in modern day Britain TODAY, the apostle Paul gives advice on how to endure slavery while on Earth.

We can take those one by one. It's not me you have to convince. It's 1800 years of Christian Church record that you're working against. The Christian Church through the ages (and some still apparently) approved of slavery.
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He at no point condones the concept or principle

Well except in the very next line ... " 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, " Paul certainly did not say reject or fight against it.


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If you have an interest in knowing more about the Bible may I suggest a Christianity Explored course

I spend the first 23 years of my life being indoctrinated in this stuff. It's amazing how the Christianity Explored type of courses white washes over that Biblical history they find difficult. In fact, I think the thing that contributed the most to me becoming an Agnostic, and now Atheist, was reading the Bible and learning the history. When it came to slavery they briefly mentioned how those Christians supporting slavery were wrong. They didn't really bother to mention it was 1800+ years of wrong. Talk about mote in one's own eye!


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How about we offer a professional service to help confused youths who know homosexuality is wrong due to a guilty conscience but struggle with feelings of same-sex attraction and want to talk to someone about it

Psychologists are trained in exactly the principle of taking what the person feels is wrong about themselves and fixing it in the best way possible so the person can better cope with the world. When society as a whole is telling someone their natural brain process is a sin there's more that's sick than just the person. Society is a bit sick too.

A good read on the Dark Knight shooting tradegy. Right Wing Christians are quick to jump to their own worst enemy. .. When you're thinking about this. Don't forget the USA was first populated by those Christians who were considered so wrong they had to leave Europe or wind up dead from other 'loving' Christians.

Last edited by BrianK on 28-Jul-2012 at 12:56 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 28-Jul-2012 at 12:52 AM.

@BrianK

Quote:

I spend the first 23 years of my life being indoctrinated in this stuff. It's amazing how the Christianity Explored type of courses white washes over that Biblical history they find difficult. In fact, I think the thing that contributed the most to me becoming an Agnostic, and now Atheist, was reading the Bible and learning the history. When it came to slavery they briefly mentioned how those Christians supporting slavery were wrong. They didn't really bother to mention it was 1800+ years of wrong. Talk about mote in one's own eye!

Since when did the Christian church keep slaves? What are you on about? Prominent UK Christian politician William Wilberforce fought against slavery not for it!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

Since when did the Christian church keep slaves? What are you on about?

Besides the Catholic Church condoning the owning of slaves various clergy and Popes directly owned slaves. Various Christians throughout the ages have themselves taken and owned slaves. Their Churches (for example US Southern Christians) supported the act. Catholic Church and Slavery is a good short read to start learning some history of the Church and slavery. Use links to springboard from there.

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Prominent UK Christian politician William Wilberforce fought against slavery not for it

Yes he did. What you had left out who was he fighting against? It was other Christian groups who wanted to continue their centuries old practice. Both groups cited God was on their side. ... Afterall slavery was a well accepted tradition.

@BrianK

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Yes he did. What you had left out who was he fighting against? It was other Christian groups who wanted to continue their centuries old practice. Both groups cited God was on their side. ... Afterall slavery was a well accepted tradition.

I think you're talking about non-Christian churchgoers here As you've just admitted a Christian; William Wilberforce fought against slavery not for it! Next you'll be calling Henry VIII a Christian even though he killed and divorced most of his wives! Are you seriously telling me you think this guy is a Christian while rejecting the Bible's teachings?

The Pseudo-Christian; the Dean of St Albans is Out4 Marriage

No, he's a renegade trouble maker that the weak willed Archbishop of Canterbury hasn't got the 'stones' to sack! Do you really want to go and analyse Christian persecutors like Tony Blair into this argument too. Does the 'Religious Hatred Bill' fiasco mean any thing to you? Street Preaching was safeguarded only after Tony Blair failed to turn up to voting and so the amendment was passed in 2006 by a single vote otherwise 'our Tony' a so called 'Christian' would have banned Christian street preaching! You can't always judge a book by it's cover!

And yet your yet again way off topic with your references to race and slavery when we're talking about 'practicing' homosexuality, an activity and life choice not a gender!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 01:53 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 01:51 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BrianK

Quote:

I spend the first 23 years of my life being indoctrinated in this stuff.

Christianity is the living faith in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the cross as God's rescue plan to bridge the gap between himself and sinful humanity. It's an act of self sacrifice that we didn't deserve. God the perfect judge would deem us all guilty of going our own way, giving in to lust, selfish desires and disobeying him but Jesus paid the punishment for our sin on the cross if we only acknowledge Him as our own personal Lord & Saviour.

You may have been indoctrinated by 'religion' but you certainly haven't yet fully grasped the significance of the cross to your own life. People struggling with unnatural feelings of homosexual attraction have my greatest sympathy and prayers but through God's healing power they can repent and either be reinstated with heterosexual attraction to their future wife/husband or else remain committed to God through living a celibate lifestyle as the apostle Paul and Jesus himself did!

I'm happy to explain these things to you, but it may be best if you went to a local Christianity Explored Course in your area to clear up your misconceptions.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

I think you're talking about non-Christian churchgoers here

I'd say the Pope and the clergy owning slaves are good enough examples of churchgoers.


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As you've just admitted a Christian; William Wilberforce fought against slavery not for it!

Just because 1 did doesn't mean they all did. Did you read the link I posted? It's a very fair representation of history and a quick read around this issue.

Speaking of that I read upon Christianity Explorered. Here we have the Alpha Project. They seem very similar both light on church history and the changing morals over time of Christians and the Christian Church.

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Are you seriously telling me you think this guy is a Christian while rejecting the Bible's teachings?

I'll answer what my minister said... In God's eyes we're all sinners. We all reject the teachings in one way or another. That's what forginess is for. Being a limited human we can't know what's in their heart. Judgement is a matter for God not man.

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And yet your yet again way off topic with your references to race and slavery when we're talking about 'practicing' homosexuality, an activity and life choice not a gender!

When you see your wife your brain is aroused in the exact same way a gay person is aroused when they see their spouse. We may choose which person to love the most. But, attraction, which is the foundation for love in our society, is not a choice but a consistent biological and chemical function indistinguishable in your head from your gay next door neighbor. Aka - not a choice.

@BigD

Another anti-gay study falls LINK Turns out the 'horrid' upbringing of gay parents resulted in only TWO kids who were raised in any significant time with a gay parent. The study was a metastudy with some overlooked flaws that now are rejecting it... The answer is DO OVER!

@BigD

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...not a gender!

Well, it does seem that you're actually reading what's being posted, since the spelling is correct now. I was assuming that you simply weren't reading the posts in which your repeated factually incorrect statements were refuted, but I guess you are.

Odd then that you'd keep on making those statements without introducing any new evidence, or indeed any evidence at all.

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Christianity is the living faith in Jesus...

Indeed it is.

Now kindly quote for me anything at all that Jesus himself said, wrote or did regarding homosexuality. Anything at all, any reference no matter how minor or passing that he himself actually made to homosexuality.

Because you know what, I'm having trouble remembering a single instance myself.

It looks to me like you're preaching the letter of certain selected Old Testament laws while ignoring those that might be inconvenient to you and at the same time completely missing the spirit of Jesus' own teachings.

@T-J

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Now kindly quote for me anything at all that Jesus himself said, wrote or did regarding homosexuality. Anything at all, any reference no matter how minor or passing that he himself actually made to homosexuality. Because you know what, I'm having trouble remembering a single instance myself.

Jesus was asked about divorce by the Pharises. He stated Adam and Eve were the first marriage. He also answered man was made to leave his father and girls to leave her mother and they to become one in marriage. That's about as close as one may get to the question. Jesus was never directly asked or spoke anything about gay marriage.

Now there's actually another question here. This is 'Jesus' as cited in the Gospels. We know the Gospels were not written by the disciples whose name they bare. Though who exactly did it we don't know. Chances are fairly high this is an interpetation of a verbal story. If anyone's played telephone they know how quickly a short phrase gets mucked up after verbal retellings. One can only imagine how such a long story would get mucked up even worse.

Thus, in the end we're actually not guaranteed Jesus was real or Jesus say anything about this. That is a matter of faith.


(EDIT - HUMOROUS ANSWER - Don't forget Jesus spent all his time hanging out with 12 guys in dresses. Who's to say he was straight.)

Last edited by BrianK on 28-Jul-2012 at 03:53 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 28-Jul-2012 at 03:29 AM.

@BigD

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Yeah, advice given while slavery was enforced by the godless Roman Empire

Here again you show a total ignorance of, and disdain for the simple facts. Far from being godless, the Roman Empire was teeming with deities. There were temples on every street corner, and all religious beliefs were tolerated, on the sole proviso that they also tolerated. It was only the early christians judgemental attitude to others that led to them being likewise judged in turn. This is ironic since your holy book has in it the line "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

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which by the way has hijacked the 'rainbow'; the symbol of God's promise never again to flood the entire Earth

The biblical story of the flood was precisely that, A story, and the little bit at the end of the story was a primitive, prescientific attemp to explain a perfectly natural phenomenon. Your chosen deity is no more responsible for rainbows than Thor is for thunder and lightning.

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Since when did the Christian church keep slaves?

Practically from the beginning, old boy! You do not get much higher up in the church than becoming a saint, and Saint Thomas Aquinas argued in favour of slavery. A few years later Pope Paul III, who obviously had no connection with the church sanctioned the enslavement of baptised Christians in Rome. In 1488, Pope InnocentVIII recieved a gift of 100 moorish slaves, and instead of manumitting them (freeing, for the uneducated) he re-gifted them to friends and allies. You will no doubt find quotes from these individuals saying the opposite, but actions speak louder than words.

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Prominent UK Christian politician William Wilberforce fought against slavery not for it!

Yes he did. He fought against other christians in the house of commons, and yet more christians in the house of lords, some of whom were bisops. Add to that the fact that he did not succeed first attempt, and had to make concessions to those other christians. The debate was between christians and christians, and what a surprise, christians won. They also lost, but we can sweep that under the carpet of history, and claim a glorious victory.

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I think you're talking about non-Christian churchgoers here

No, we are talking about somebody who, like you, calls themself a christian. We are talking about somebody who, like you, quotes bible passages to justify their own bigotry. We are talking about somebody who, like you, claims that they alone speak for an all powerful deity. We are talking about somebody who, like you, cannot justify their twisted hate other than claiming "God told me". For your information Peter Sutcliffe was also recieving "orders from God" to cleanse the world of prostitutes.

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The Pseudo-Christian; the Dean of St Albans is Out4 Marriage

The fact that you, a "christian" can call another "christian" a pseudo-christian is evidence thay you are about to launch yet another crusade where "christian" kills "christian" in yet another hate session that negates anything written in the second section of your holy book. The one titled "New Testament" Nowhere in that book did the character "Christ" encourage his supporters to "Go forth and massacre, Wade up to your hips in the blood of those who do not immediately worship you, and burn those who are different. You are every bit as dangerous as "Bloody Mary", Torquemada, and yes, even Peter Sutcliffe, disguising his murderous tendencies behind the veil of "Christianity"

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I'm happy to explain these things to you, but it may be best if you went to a local Christianity Explored Course in your area to clear up your misconceptions.

Or to put it another way, "Oops, the conditioning has not taken. Ship this one to a re-education camp for some more brainwashing and indoctrination."

Last edited by Nimrod on 28-Jul-2012 at 05:36 PM.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: LGBT 'PRIDE' culture (which by the way has hijacked the 'rainbow'; the symbol of God's promise never again to flood the entire Earth, for its dubious use in fostering 'gay pride').

Isn`t it the symbol (we call them words now) of dispersion? :D You appropriated it, they appropriated it, so what lol

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How about we offer a professional service to help confused youths who know homosexuality is wrong due to a guilty conscience...

They think it`s wrong because people like you try to make them feel guilty despite it not affecting you one iota.

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...struggle with feelings of same-sex attraction...

...because of you...

No one doubts their sexuality, they doubt the wisdom of revealing it - because of you, this is your fault.

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Oh yeah and put the brakes on the redefinition of marriage to avoid a whole generation of confused youth! No-brainer really.

We need to put the brakes on hard-wired individuals who spread dissent of people`s choices based on ancient dogma.

I hope some day you`ll look back and see that some of the things you`ve written here are awful

_________________
Fraggle

- insert profound text here -

@BigD

Quote:

Christianity is the living faith in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the cross as God's rescue plan to bridge the gap between himself and sinful humanity.

Chistianity is the belief in unfounded fairy tales. Not even very good ones. Things like burning bushes do not impress people any more, assuming they ever did. Everything in the Bible is so parochial, "the universe" in the bible is limited to a small area in the middle east where the people there are still trying to kill each other over their "true" faiths.

Now if your hero was really the son of God he could have changed the world without any of this cryptic dying on the cross nonesense. Getting caught and executed is not exactly a successful plan in my books.

Amazing how you go on about father figures yet your hero was illegitimate, no one would believe that fathered by God excuse these days - assuming they ever did.

Religion is man made, man created God, not the other way round.

As for the cross, it is a pretty sick religion that uses an instrument of torture and execution as its symbol.

Maybe a stake with flames would be a better representation of Christianity as that is what Christians have done to heretics and non-believers over the centuries.

You can keep your evil religion, only religion can make good people do evil. Aetheists never go around burning people, only Christians and a few other faiths do that. The world would be a far better place if there were no Christians ranting on about their beliefs and insisting everyone follow thier fantasy novel as a guide to how life should be lived.

I note your avatar denotes violence and guns as a way to solve problems (very American religious right IMHO) , thinking of planning a modern crusade sometime are you?

@BillE

The truth is

@Frags

Quote:

No one doubts their sexuality, they doubt the wisdom of revealing it - because of you, this is your fault.

You give an unsubstantiated liberal position on the issue but not backed up by reality. I have spoken to people who have struggles with homosexual feeling. They knew it was wrong and didn't need me to point it out. Some people are called to be celibate and our society confuses matters by saying that if they are not attracted to the opposite sex that they must be homosexual! It is simply incorrect, people lead perfectly happy celibate lives and Christians in this position are able to devote more of their life to God's work as the apostle Paul did. One of my wife's work colleagues was in this position and is perfectly happy living a celibate life.

Saying that, I have also heard of people that have prayed through these unhelpful feelings of same-sex attraction and gone on to 'marry' (in the correct meaning of the word) with normal 'heterosexual' attraction reinstated, tell that to your MRI machine!!!!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Jul-2012 at 08:07 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BillE

Quote:

I note your avatar denotes violence and guns as a way to solve problems (very American religious right IMHO) , thinking of planning a modern crusade sometime are you?

Get a grip!

If you have never played Dune 2 then why not? Call yourself an Amiga fan
Saying that I've no intention of killing anyone! Joseph Stalin, Hitler and even the Batman killer were all atheists and mass killers so again no link to murder being a Christian pass-time. By the way Jihad is a Islamic principle not a Christian one, you should have concentrated in Religious Education at school!

@Nimrod

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In 1488, Pope InnocentVIII recieved a gift of 100 moorish slaves, and instead of manumitting them (freeing, for the uneducated) he re-gifted them to friends and allies. You will no doubt find quotes from these individuals saying the opposite, but actions speak louder than words.

I question whether all ALL people in the established churches of CofE and Rome are Bible believing Christians and I see no unity between the Bible believing Christians and the likes of The Dean of St Albans. The Reformation was needed because of the actions of Rome losing sight of Biblical teachings. Worshiping Mary is not stipulated in the Bible either, nor the process of confession to a priest nor ministers of the church having to be celibate! No doubt a similar process will be needed as CofE and CofS churches start to lose their way.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

@BillE [quote]I note your avatar denotes violence and guns as a way to solve problems If you have never played Dune 2 then why not? Call yourself an Amiga fan

I have never regarded the Amiga as a games machine, I always have used it for serious software. I am a fan of the Dune books by Frank Herbert and even some of the preludes, but no, I never played the game. Should I have been wasting my time playing games?

Whether or not from an OLD Amiga game, your Avatar does say a lot about your fundamentalist's Christian (which are no differerent from the Taliban's) attitudes. Carry a big gun and you are a real man? Do you have something to hide maybe, those who bang on about homosexuality so much are probably just repressing something they have been told they ought not to be by pain of death. So have an Avatar carrying a really big gun and no way anyone would suspect hey ?


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Saying that I've no intention of killing anyone!

Glad to hear that, you can never be too sure of people with irrational beliefs.


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Joseph Stalin, Hitler and even the Batman killer were all atheists and mass killers so again no link to murder being a Christian pass-time.

I think you will find the only aetheist was Stalin. Aetheism was his only redeaming feature, there are evil people in all walks of life, but the relgious tend to be the most common and most violent.

Hitler was not an aeetheist, he believed in all sorts of crap like Atlantis being the origin of the German race. Maybe not a Christian but he did do the Pope's dirty work by trying to exterminate all the Jews.

The Batman Lunatic was certainly Christian, a church goer as it turns out. That does NOT surprise me in the slightest. He probably had that twisted Old Testament God of yours saying things to him in his head. No doubt the guy went totally bonkers and has no rational thoughts, but then that is a religious trait is it not. Rational people never seem to be overly religious, a few do believe in God but somehow reconcile that with their knowledge of science. Most religious nutters seem to reject knowledge and education.


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By the way Jihad is a Islamic principle not a Christian one,

I never said Jihad, please point out where I did. I mentioned Crusade, a really shameful episode in western history driven by CHRISTIAN bigotry and ignorance.

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you should have concentrated in Religious Education at school!

You are kidding, the words "RELIGION" and "EDUCATION" are the antithesis of each other. Any one who believes fairy tales cannot have had an education worth the meaning of the word. You will find most EDUCATED peiople are agnostic or aetheist, very few are religious, despecially in the sort of twisted American Evangelist Christian garbage you follow.

At school I prefered to learn about things that were real, not made up. Even English Lit was pointless, as you wrere just learning about something someone had made up.

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@Nimrod I question whether all ALL people in the established churches of CofE and Rome are Bible believing Christians

So YOUR Christianity is far more valid than anyone else's. My God, Jesus Christ you are really egotistical.

Yet they are more likel;y to follow the original maening than you, they may regard the Bible as a guide - though most of it is very unethically sound, but do not regard it as absolute truth. The Bible doesn't even exist as a single entity, it is concocted of many versions, all contradicting and all propaganda. Much of it has been thrown out by the Council of Nicocea, no one know at all what the "good book" is meant to be about.

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and I see no unity between the Bible believing Christians and the likes of The Dean of St Albans. The Reformation was needed because of the actions of Rome losing sight of Biblical teachings.

The Bible is a FANTASY novel, it is NOT the word of any non existant super-human being. The reformation just replaced one set of uneducated nutters by another set of even more uneducated nutters without any history even. Martin Luther was just as wrong as the Catholics about the earth going around the sun.

As for moral guidance the Bible stands on very dodgy ground, especially the Old Testament where your God behaves like a jealous spoilt child who should have had his botty spanked. The Jesus goes all wimpy apart from that bit about beringing not peace but a sword. Then he gets killed - not exactly a role model.

A far better role model is Doctor Who and just as believable as the Bible - except for that awful period when Sylvester McCoy played the good Doctor. Of course we all realise Dr Who is fiction, eben if positive fiction. The Bible is also fiction but has had an appalling effect on humanity over the ages. Why don't you realise this ?


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Worshiping Mary is not stipulated in the Bible either,

I should hope not. Nothing that morally wrong in getting up the duff before marriage but claiming you were raped by God is a pathetic excuse. That and causing a religion responsible for more deaths than any other cause is inexcusable.

Why in the 21st century do some people still believe in this crap ?

Its almost as bad, or maybe worse than the Niburu brigade - another quasi relgion with members who have no brain cells to speak of.

There is something sadly wrong with the world - oh yes its called religion.

@BigD

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It is entirely in keeping that businesses serving the needs of families like Chick-fil-A should have traditional family values!

A very sore point at the moment.

So some obscure American fast food joint's opinion should be important ?

They no doubt poison American children with over fatted over salted junk like KFC and McDonalds. Yes I know we get the latter two here too. but I would NEVER eat at any of them.

I would also no doubt correctly guess that the cheap mass produced fodder that this "Christian" company force feeds American kids is from cruel battery farms with zero welfare standardswhere the chickens never get to live a proper life. I do not approve of fast food joints and could not care anything for their immoral standards.

I would never eat a KFC or Chicl-fil ever, I only buy free range or ones that have at least some trackable welfare, I have moral standards when it comes to what I put in my body.

One of my very free rangers got murdered two days ago on the road - probably some Christian b*st*rd with no regard for life - unless they believe in Jesus. They never even stopped, Donna was such a character but your values give boy racers have "dominion" over other species don't they.

Anyway she has had a decent burial WITHOUT any CHRISTIAN crap and probably had a far better life than any poor food machine that your wonderful Chick-A-crap company ever had.

Of course as a self admitted aetheist (and PROUD of not believeing in garbage) you will assume I have no feelings - wrong again. ALL humans have EVOLVED to have feelings no matter how unpleasant they can be at times.


The opinions of an American fast food place count for less than zero.

@BigD

Quote:

Joseph Stalin, Hitler and even the Batman killer were all atheists

I will concede Stalin as an atheist, however Adolf was a "lapsed catholic" who continued to follow his childhood indoctrination, even though he no longer attended services. Adolf had a catholic priest as one of his inner circle and saw atheism as part of the bolshevik threat. As for the individual that you choose to call "the batman killer", the man has a name He is James Holmes. There is no evidence to support your claim, and there is a possibility that he attended church, as BrianK has already informed you. Of course you promptly ignore anything that does not conform to your blinkered view of the world.

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By the way Jihad is a Islamic principle not a Christian one,

So where did BillE mention Jihad? The actions BillE described, and asked you about were crusade which is an event where armies of christians massacre muslims, jews, other christians, or just the scenery if there is nothing else left standing.

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I question whether all ALL people in the established churches of CofE and Rome are Bible believing Christians

So basically your argument is that You, in all of Your ineffable glory and wisdom are the sole arbiter on who is, and is not a true christian. Those of us who have the misfortune not to br You must fall to our knees and beg Your divine forgiveness for our imperfections because we have not beaten up a queer today, or massacred a group of muslims, or jews, or american indians, or other people who thought they were christians, but You in your infinite wisdom declare to be "not christians".

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The Reformation was needed because of the actions of Rome losing sight of Biblical teachings.

And do you honestly believe that the protestants fare any better than the church of rome? Cromwell was not a catholic, but a lot of the corpses he left littering Ireland had previously been followers of that faith. Neither was Matthew Hopkins. Tell me one thing, Why does a religion that professes to be based on a deitys love for mankind need to be spread by hate, war, rape, torture, and massacre?

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

Can you clarify on what basis you believe Jesus to have been celibate?

Just curious...

Also, just out of interest, do you believe the bible creation story to be factually accurate?

Pretty sure I asked this several pages back, but you seem to have missed it.

Thanks,
AndyC